Toronto versus Western?

[estairella]

I've been lucky to be accepted at a number of schools... I've narrowed things down to either Western or Toronto, probably preference towards Western based on the enthusiasm of their students. However, as a pre-med, all I can really use as my reference is the "feel" I got at the interview, and a general knowledge of the curriculum... I was thinking of exploring radiology. I realize it is ridiculously competitive and my mind will probably change later... but in case it doesn't, I definitely would like any input for which school would better fit me for eventually getting into a radiology residency.

 

Here are my current personal preferences:

 

• preclinical years - absolutely Western, I'm much more of an independent learner; I don't know if P/F is an advantage or disadvantage over H/P/F
  
• clinical years - Western has first call, so you probably learn more, but Toronto has a greater diversity and extensive faculty so you might make better connections
  
• location - Toronto is a more interesting city to be in and definitely more convenient for going elsewhere (in terms of flying)
  
• cost - should be about the same, factoring in loans and living costs (maybe Toronto more expensive)
  
• research - Toronto clearly has some great research opportunities
  
• match - it seems more Toronto students match into competitive specialities, but is that a factor of the school/school reputation or a factor of the people?
  

 

Eventually, I think I would want to come back to Vancouver for residency, then again, I haven't had any real rural experiences, so going to Western might be life-changing in that sense.

 

I know I'll get a great education at either school, and if my opportunities to become a strong (radiology?) match applicant are the same in either school, I think I would enjoy myself more at Western. I just don't want to make the mistake of enjoying myself for 4 years at the cost of a career

[e_is_hv]

Hi,

 

First of all congratulations. I'm in the exact same boat as you - accepted at both, and figure I will be interested in radiology (did my undergrad in physics/electrical engineeirng and worked in imaging). I'm actually just about to start another thread on the following topic: it's my understanding that for CaRMS, your reference letters mean a great, great deal. In that case, I'm sure Toronto has a much higher density of people with a lot of cloat and prestige behind them. Also, I think the pass fail system at Western blows; at least at Toronto I can differentiate myself from everyone with an Honors, rather than just a pass.

 

Just my two cents. Goodluck in your choice.

 

Hopefully see you kicking around either way.

 

e_is_hv

[CaffeinatedPonderer]

I guess 'our' dilemma is fairly common after all

 

After spending 4+PEY years of my life at UofT, I have mixed feelings about the university. UofT does have a wealth of upper-cloth people, but be warned that even as a med student it is often hard to get in their 'good' books without a wealth of tried and true work: research, extra-curriculars, proven results, etc.. Coupled with a h/p/f system that pushes the lot of us to spend our sunny (or great snowboarding) days at Gerstein Library when we should be out helping the world or getting exercise, I can honestly say that change would be welcome.

 

That said, I must add that I have already had many opportunities to network with people of clout while at UofT due to its vast resources/opportunities, and thus feel at a bit of an advantage if I were to go to other unis. However, don't forget that all meds in Canada must have made some good networks in their lives to reach to where they are now. The less time they spend studying, the more time they can spend helping their fellow classmates.

[ineffable]

I made the decision in May to go to U of T for mostly the same reasons mentioned above. Having done my undergrad at U of T, I know that the atmosphere can become quite competitive at times, yet the extraordinary opportunities to network and research far outweigh the drawbacks in my opinion. Coupled with the new school of public health which just opened (with options geared towards professionals) boasting faculty including the likes of Dr. James Orbinski, I had to make the choice for U of T, hands-down. Ultimately in Toronto, I figure I'll always be able to have a fun time as long as I stay individually balanced and find the time to go out.

[CaffeinatedPonderer]

Ultimately in Toronto, I figure I'll always be able to have a fun time as long as I stay individually balanced and find the time to go out.

 

I guess I'm a little biased because I came to UofT under the same mindset but ended up working too hard both academically and professionally while I felt the best year of my life were slipping away.

 

Each to their own.

[lostinHP]

I guess I'm a little biased because I came to UofT under the same mindset but ended up working too hard both academically and professionally while I felt the best year of my life were slipping away.

 

Each to their own.

 

I wasn't as fortunate to receive offers from both Western and Toronto, so I will be attending Toronto in September. Western was my first choice originally because of many reasons stated above, including the nature of the UofT program and its effect on one's personal life. Your personal experience with balancing the academic and social aspects of your life CaffeinatedPonderer worry me even more. Since you've been through it, do you have any advice on how to preform best in academics yet still maintain sanity by having fun, exercising, relaxing, etc?

Thanks in advance

[rogerroger]

I sympathize with these views.

 

However after spending four years at Western doing my BMSc. I was ready for a change. With this said I do think one of the best things going for Western is that it has a very large social scene and a very strong sense of a university community.

 

In Toronto I do expect one could get lost in the crowd much more easily. However, from talking with a past UofT meds grad that did their undergrad at UWO I got the impression that the opportunities are greater both socially and academically at UofT if one puts in more effort. I know at the UofT interview they pushed the idea that UofT supports a well rounded student expirence. So I guess I will let you guys know how it pans out.

[CaffeinatedPonderer]

It's just something I heard last year from a physician who did his medical degree at McGill and residency at UofT. He said the UofT grads were not as good at teamwork as graduates from other schools. This is probably not the norm though.

 

Teamwork skills really vary person-to-person, and largely depend on the past experiences of individuals working in groups, playing team sports, and participating in team competitions. I work great with some and we get into 'win$ win$ win$' situations quite often () , but utterly annoy others due to an apparent yet underlying ego (I blame it on my undergrad program).

 

What I can say about UofT is that it can be a rep-based school, and as a result I wouldn't be surprised if those graduating from it take with them a dash of superiority complex that doesn't agree well with other docs.

 

0.02c

[Gob]

Both schools are great and have their pros and cons, but I believe Western has the edge because of their stronger clerkship program.

 

it's my understanding that for CaRMS, your reference letters mean a great, great deal. In that case, I'm sure Toronto has a much higher density of people with a lot of cloat and prestige behind them.

e_is_hv

 

This shouldn't really have a huge impact on your decision because a) it's unwise to assume that Toronto doctors have more 'prestige' and the level of 'prestige' isn't as important as one might think, rather, the quality of the letter is more important.

[CaffeinatedPonderer]

Both schools are great and have their pros and cons, but I believe Western has the edge because of their stronger clerkship program.

QUOTE]

 

Do you mean in terms of selection to placement match rates?

[Swift Fox]

1st Choice Match Results 2008

 

1. Saskatchewan = 97% of the class got first choice residency program

 

2. Western = 96% ''

 

3. Toronto = 95% ''

 

3. Ottawa = 95% ''

 

3. Calgary = 95% ''

 

4. Dalhousie = 94%

 

5. Manitoba = 93%

 

6. McGill = 92%

 

7. McMaster = 91%

 

7. Alberta = 91%

 

7. UBC = 91%

 

7. Queens = 91%

 

NATIONAL AVERAGE = 91%

 

8. Memorial = 90%

 

9. Montreal = 88%

 

10. Sherbrooke = 84%

 

11. Laval = 83%

 

 

Keep in mind UofT has a big class in a competitive province so that 95% is pretty impressive. Yet for all intensive purposes they are the same in the match.

[estairella]

Wow I guess my post got revived. Btw, I ended up choosing UT, if anyone cares.

 

I think Western has a stronger clerkship program because you get first call (e.g. nurses go to you before attending doctor, so you get first dibs at a case).

 

The % matched really doesn't tell you much because you have to look at it in terms of where people applied. If a school had 85% match rate (below national average) but you knew everyone applied to dermatology, then it's still very very impressive.

 

It's hard to compare directly, but CaRMs does give you a breakdown in terms of who applies where... given approximately the same match rates (Western at 96% and Toronto at 95%), the breakdown of who applied where would tell you how competitive a program (or at least, the candidates that come out of it) is.

 

Having said that, both Western and Toronto routinely have students which match into very competitive specialties.. so they both kick ass!

[crush]

crap! they ate my reply...

I know I am kinda late, but I was in a similar position as you a few years ago (including wanting something competitive), ended up picking Western, and am really happy with my decision. Here's why.

 

preclinical years - Western for sure. Because they give you TIME. 1st and 2nd years have at least two half days off each week, which is good time for observerships, research, extracurrics, social, etc. U of T has the reputation of KILLING you in first year. I remember I was talking to a couple friends from UT meds after our first year, asking them what they wanted to do, whether they did any observerships, etc. and the answer was no because they were in the anatomy lab all day!!

 

Plus I like the P/F better. Most schools DON'T have P/F so adcoms don't overly care about it. Maybe unless you're going to apply to the US or something. So why bust your butt working for the H? The H will probably help differentiate you AMONG UT STUDENTS, but with others it's probably not worth much. Plus if you get a P at UT, you probably look a bit worse compared to the others...

 

clinical years - Western +++++ first call... no going home at midnight like the baby clerks on team medicine at UT do (although I admit sometimes I'm kinda jealous! haha) but it's great we have tons of responsibility.

 

location - Toronto, obviously. But will you have time (in year 1 anyway) to take advantage of everything? London is a very nice city, very student-friendly. Tons of great restaurants and clubs.

 

cost - well... my friend is paying $1400 for a tiny bachelor+den at College Park in Toronto, whereas the nicest 1br's (which are much bigger) in London cost $900 or so. So add that up over 4 years. (Obviously there are cheaper options for both) But Toronto students tend not to buy cars for clerkship and London students almost need one (although there are a handful each year that do without). So if you're not going to buy a BMW then advantage London.

 

research - Toronto is great, but again with the time. It's not like there is no research in London - we have some great research programs here that fund many students to conduct research in the summer and during the school year. Plus, you can always come to Toronto during the summer for research if you want, which is what many of our students do.

 

match - it depends on the year and people. This year the grad class did amazing, very high match rate overall and into some very competitive fields - 4 ophtho matches for goodness sakes!! But overall match rate is really more of a function of how safe your class is with backing up, I think.

 

Anyway, I am super happy at Western, but I'm sure I would have been fine at UT as well. Good luck in September and I hope you take advantage of all UT has to offer!

[crush]

Hi,

I'm actually just about to start another thread on the following topic: it's my understanding that for CaRMS, your reference letters mean a great, great deal. In that case, I'm sure Toronto has a much higher density of people with a lot of cloat and prestige behind them.

e_is_hv

 

wanted to address this as well-

yes, reference letters mean a lot. However:

- especially if you want to match into a competitive specialty, you want letters from people in that specialty, not just anyone with prestige

- you want letters from people at the different programs you are applying to, not just U of T

- and as Gob said, quality>prestige

 

I also wanted to add that at Western, we do all our core rotations first and electives right before carms, with the intent being that we are at our best on our away rotations in 4th year with the maximum experience under our belts. It doesn't work this way at U of T as I believe there are a number of weeks of elective time in third year (however, this could be a good thing if you're not set on what you want to do yet and want to try things out a bit earlier).

[aintnogame]

CRush, very good reply.

 

However just to point out to the others - that anatomy lab at U of T is only sept october - thats 2 months out of the entire year people. - also a bit at the end of the year when we do the brain - but very very few hours.

 

The whole anatomy lab myth should not be a deciding factor for medical school choice.

Best thing for those still deciding is to call up current students and ask them 1 on 1 questions, where they will be more likely to give honest answers than on an online forum.

 

GOod luck.

[GG87]

So...how about a bump of this thread? Does much of this still hold true? I'm flattered to have to make this decision, but it's so hard!

[medicant]

So...how about a bump of this thread? Does much of this still hold true? I'm flattered to have to make this decision, but it's so hard!

 

no....U of T is pass/fail now, e.g., and has revamped its clerkship program

[Caide]

1st Choice Match Results 2008

 

1. Saskatchewan = 97% of the class got first choice residency program

 

2. Western = 96% ''

 

3. Toronto = 95% ''

 

3. Ottawa = 95% ''

 

3. Calgary = 95% ''

 

4. Dalhousie = 94%

 

5. Manitoba = 93%

 

6. McGill = 92%

 

7. McMaster = 91%

 

7. Alberta = 91%

 

7. UBC = 91%

 

7. Queens = 91%

 

NATIONAL AVERAGE = 91%

 

8. Memorial = 90%

 

9. Montreal = 88%

 

10. Sherbrooke = 84%

 

11. Laval = 83%

 

 

Keep in mind UofT has a big class in a competitive province so that 95% is pretty impressive. Yet for all intensive purposes they are the same in the match.

 

Sorry to bump this, but does anyone know where this information was found? Also, are there stats showing the % of those applying to US residencies who got their first choice (McGill specifically)?