Important CaRMS question - attention all Med Students!

[e_is_hv]

Hi All,

 

Just a bit of background; I've been accepted to both Western and Toronto (and I'm a London native and did my undergraduate work at Western). I'm leaning towards Toronto, but I'm a little confused by the grading systems and how they relate to CaRMS:

 

a) Do most Univerisities use the Pass/Fail system like Western, or the Honors/Pass/Fail system like Toronto? If you go to a school that uses P/F, what incentive is there at all to get more than 60% on your exams? (since no one will ever know?) - can the class really be as good as one that's motivated to get honors?

 

for CaRMs, I hear that the clinical reference letters are very important (much more so than preclinical grades, correct?). So if you go to a Pass/Fail school, is it entirely WHO you know? Maybe I'm out of line, but I have a friend who's father is Chair of Cardiology at a pass/fail school (and he's currently attending medical school there) - does he literally have to get only 60% and then Daddy will set him up with fantastic references (a pessimistic but realistic view I think), or am I missing something?

 

Thanks all - I'd like to know more before I decide between Toronto and Western. When you post, please include if you are a medical student or a resident.

 

Thankis very much again!

e_is_hv

[Ollie]

I wouldn't get all worked up about HPF vs PF. There is always talk at UofT of going to PF, so I wouldn't count on it still being HPF by the time you graduate. Other than UofT, I think UBC and UofA are HPF.

 

Skimming by preclerkship with marks around 60% will definitely get you a meeting the the course director and/or student affairs. Although it doesn't show on your transcript, it's not looked kindly upon. There are also academic awards, so at a PF school, there is motivation to do well (although presumably medical students are generally self-motivated people). At UofT the vast majority of the class gets honours, so it actually isn't even useful for distinguishing yourself (which is why they should get rid of it).

 

You're right that preclerkship marks are less important when it comes to CaRMS. Reference letters, your essay, clinical evals and electives are all pretty important. If you have some inside connections, maybe it would be easier to set up electives, but you still have to work with that person, impress them and get a good letter. There's always a lot of debate about the benefits of letters from "higher-ups". Yes a super-amazing letter from them could help a lot, but a mediocre letter could kill your application. They are used to being sucked up to, so they probably give good letters out sparingly.

 

So point being, I wouldn't use HPF vs PF as a major factor in your decision. You should of course go to UofT because it is awesome!

[1234]

HPF should be maintained at UofT. Although its not useful in distinguishing yourself, its a benchmark for you personally.

 

For instance, you could differentiate between a poorly written test ( which earned you a pass) abd a well written test (earned you an honours). Just provides each student with some sort of indication as to how they are absorbing the material. In PF systems, a student doesnt know whether they understand half the material or the majority of the material.

[Ollie]

HPF should be maintained at UofT. Although its not useful in distinguishing yourself, its a benchmark for you personally.

 

For instance, you could differentiate between a poorly written test ( which earned you a pass) abd a well written test (earned you an honours). Just provides each student with some sort of indication as to how they are absorbing the material. In PF systems, a student doesnt know whether they understand half the material or the majority of the material.

 

Actually, for all our preclerkship classes except DOCH and ASCM, you are told your actual percentage grade on exams and they usually tell you the class average. (or at least they did when I was a pre-clerk). Presumably they would keep doing this in a PF system.

[ploughboy]

HPF should be maintained at UofT. Although its not useful in distinguishing yourself, its a benchmark for you personally.

 

For instance, you could differentiate between a poorly written test ( which earned you a pass) abd a well written test (earned you an honours). Just provides each student with some sort of indication as to how they are absorbing the material. In PF systems, a student doesnt know whether they understand half the material or the majority of the material.

 

At least at UWO, you get marks for all your courses. However, your transcript only shows either Pass or Fail.

[blinknoodle]

There seems to be misinformation here.

 

In a pass/fail system, your transcript says pass or fail.

As a student, you still know your marks, the class average, standard deviation, etc.

 

There are academic awards for those who like to be acknowledged for their hard work.

[flying kumquat]

There seems to be misinformation here.

 

In a pass/fail system, your transcript says pass or fail.

As a student, you still know your marks, the class average, standard deviation, etc.

 

I realize this is primarily a UofT/UWO discussion, but I'd like to add that this is not the case at Queen's. At present, pre-clerkship is HPF, with the cutoffs at 80 and 60% (and a meeting with the dean from ?60-65%). You'll never really know more specifically what your mark was. Your transcript will say H, P, or F. The class average and percentage of people obtaining honours is sometimes stated.

 

This has something to do with the MCQ exam. I'm not exactly sure on the details, but they weight different questions based on the "importance" of the objective the question was based on, and the percentage of people who got it right. It's a bit of an odd way to do it, but it makes it so that a poorly asked question that no one else understood won't be worth a lot. You can calculate your short answer and practical exam marks if you go look at them, and I think they tell you your OSCE marks if you ask.

 

Some clerkship blocks at Queen's are moving to just P/F. Not all of them; you can still get honours in a manner that is defined for each block that still offers it.

[Dante]

What about Ottawa? do they use the PF or HPF system?

[0T6]

Ottawa's HPF for preclerkship, PF for clerkship