St George

[Alastriss]

And as Alastriss stated, I personally talked to the person who prepare the J1 letters in Ontario and was told that they have never exceeded 125 per a year. I think it will close to that number in a couple of years, but I think they will simply add more at that time.

 

Is the trend for the number of J-1 letters increasing? If this is the case, do they plan on increasing the number of letters given out? where can I find this info..do I have to contact them?

[rogerroger]

Here is an idea...

 

You want to practice in Canada right? Well assuming that you do then how about you get your butt off a Caribbean forum, and listen to what people in the Canadian system are saying... Sorry to be harsh but ValueMD, anonymous SGU student or SGU propaganda are NOT valid sources of information when your future is on the line... Well at least that's how I would look at it...

 

I never said it isn't possible to match or be successful. But I did say you are gambling with your long term financial and career outlooks by going to SGU or any other Caribbean or dubious med school.

 

I have nothing against SGU or any medical school for that matter. I am simply telling you what the reality is behind the curtain where the actual decisions are made... I am telling you what I have personally heard from residency directors and from people at the CMA during my time with them...

 

Don't like it, fine. Ignore it or spout random gibberish from a Caribbean med forum or this or that SGU student. I just hope some of you have the common sense to evaluate what people actually in the medical profession within Canada have been saying about these institutions. The CMA has not issued warnings for no reason at all... If nothing else gets the alarm bell going off then at least these should...

 

Here is a REAL source, the Canadian Federation of Medical Students. Here is what they say: http://www.cfms.org/pre_med/applying.cfm I assure you there are more statements like that from basically every medical association in the country....

 

Ignore our warnings at your peril.

 

__________________

UBC - MEDIII

 

 

I strongly agree with my UBC colleague on this one... Watch out guys it is a massive risk...

[VanMD]

I strongly agree with my UBC colleague on this one... Watch out guys it is a massive risk...

 

OK.. it is a more complicated route. BUT again, I ask you the same question as I asked above. If someone applies 3 times or 4 times to a Canadian and US MD program and doesn't get it. Should that person just give up on trying to become an MD? And maybe go into nursing cause they are sub par? Or go to SGU and become an MD and do residency in the USA and then work as a Physician in the USA or in Ontario.

[leviathan]

I strongly agree with my UBC colleague on this one... Watch out guys it is a massive risk...

It sounds like it's really only a massive risk in regards to returning to Canada for residency. I haven't heard of anyone who didn't at least get a residency in the US. Things are looking better in some more progressive areas of Canada (in other words, Ontario), where US residencies are finally being accepted at par along with USMLE board scores. It's unfortunate that most of Canadian medical associations have such a pretentious and xenophobic view on people who study abroad. The first two years are spent in the supposed 'dubious' institutions in the Caribbean, but who can tell me what is actually different about where in the world you are studying from Netters or Robbins or Harrison's Internal Medicine? The final two years are done in US hospitals, where the only difference that can really be defined is that they practice medicine slightly different from Canadians with more diagnostic investigations and less physical examinations (and much more defensive practices).

 

Anyway, hopefully attitudes will change down the road when our country really starts to fly down **** creek and the shortage becomes massive. By then, many competent Canadian doctors will be working in the US and will refuse to cross the border because of issues of pride.

[rogerroger]

The first two years are spent in the supposed 'dubious' institutions in the Caribbean, but who can tell me what is actually different about where in the world you are studying from Netters or Robbins or Harrison's Internal Medicine?

 

I just want to address this comment...

 

Contrary to common perception the first two years of medical school are a lot more than just learning anatomy, physiology and pathology... Every week in first year I spend about 8 hours actually in hospitals. A significant period of this time is learning about our unique health care system and about medicine in a Canadian context. You learn about how the system works here in Canada. How does rehab work, what provincial social services do what and how, who pays for these services, what are the major health concerns of Canadians, etc. etc. etc.

 

I think it is naive to assume medical education is generally equivalent regardless of geography. Note, I am not saying one place is better than another... I am however saying there are significant differences in terms of pre-clerkship curriculum. Depending on the geography where you are trained I think you are much better equipped to serve the health interests of that particular region. This shouldn't be surprising as it is perfectly logical considering the mandate of most medical schools.

[clive]

I just want to address this comment...

 

Contrary to common perception the first two years of medical school are a lot more than just learning anatomy, physiology and pathology... Every week in first year I spend about 8 hours actually in hospitals. A significant period of this time is learning about our unique health care system and about medicine in a Canadian context. You learn about how the system works here in Canada. How does rehab work, what provincial social services do what and how, who pays for these services, what are the major health concerns of Canadians, etc. etc. etc.

 

I think it is naive to assume medical education is generally equivalent regardless of geography. Note, I am not saying one place is better than another... I am however saying there are significant differences in terms of pre-clerkship curriculum. Depending on the geography where you are trained I think you are much better equipped to serve the health interests of that particular region. This shouldn't be surprising as it is perfectly logical considering the mandate of most medical schools.

 

If you look at any private US school, you will see students from all over the country. The same in Canada but to a lesser extent. I think the clinical years + residency is more than sufficient for learning about how the system works.

[leviathan]

I just want to address this comment...

 

Contrary to common perception the first two years of medical school are a lot more than just learning anatomy, physiology and pathology... Every week in first year I spend about 8 hours actually in hospitals. A significant period of this time is learning about our unique health care system and about medicine in a Canadian context. You learn about how the system works here in Canada. How does rehab work, what provincial social services do what and how, who pays for these services, what are the major health concerns of Canadians, etc. etc. etc.

 

I think it is naive to assume medical education is generally equivalent regardless of geography. Note, I am not saying one place is better than another... I am however saying there are significant differences in terms of pre-clerkship curriculum. Depending on the geography where you are trained I think you are much better equipped to serve the health interests of that particular region. This shouldn't be surprising as it is perfectly logical considering the mandate of most medical schools.

That's a good point roger; however, there are still many schools that do not do these kind of things. Another point is that the US is considered equal to Canada for their schools (on the LCME list), and most Caribbean schools follow the exact same American style of medical education in order to prepare their students for the USMLE exams.

[rogerroger]

OK.. it is a more complicated route. BUT again, I ask you the same question as I asked above. If someone applies 3 times or 4 times to a Canadian and US MD program and doesn't get it. Should that person just give up on trying to become an MD? And maybe go into nursing cause they are sub par? Or go to SGU and become an MD and do residency in the USA and then work as a Physician in the USA or in Ontario.

 

 

Personally, I would apply to the USA, UK, Ireland and Australia. Why these places... They are all about the same price at the end of the day with some minor exceptions. USA and Australia both provide one excellent opportunities to practice in these countries, so they win out over the Caribbean. RCSI in Ireland matched in Canada at 100% in 2008. The other Irish schools are likely similar. So I would take Ireland over the Caribbean.

 

If I did this 3 or 4 times and couldn't get in to any of these places I would take it as life's way of telling me to do something different. I would still not go to the Caribbean.

 

Really though, if you pass the MCAT, have >3.3 GPA and one ounce of social ability I have a hard time imaging none of these places working out after applying 3-4 times. Collectively there must be >50 something medical schools which are safer choices than even the best Caribbean medical school. RCSI, Dublin, Cork, Limerick, Sydney, Gallaway, Queensland, Melbourne, Flinders, Wollongong, National Australia.... I could go on and on and I haven't even started with the US and UK yet...

[rogerroger]

If you look at any private US school, you will see students from all over the country. The same in Canada but to a lesser extent. I think the clinical years + residency is more than sufficient for learning about how the system works.

 

One thing I have learned is that nothing happens in a med school curriculum without a reason... The fact that most Canadian medical schools are teaching determinants of health in a Canadian context must be significant. Can you get by without such an education? Supposedly yes. But the knowledge you receive must be beneficial to you as a physician in Canada. If it wasn't faculties of med wouldn't be wasting time and money on it during the pre-clerk years... Plus it is tested on the Canadian licensing exam.

 

Overall I am just saying that in modern medical education there is more to preclerkship then the anatomy, physiology and patho.

[leviathan]

Personally, I would apply to the USA, UK, Ireland and Australia. Why these places... They are all about the same price at the end of the day with some minor exceptions. USA and Australia both provide one excellent opportunities to practice in these countries, so they win out over the Caribbean. RCSI in Ireland matched in Canada at 100% in 2008. The other Irish schools are likely similar. So I would take Ireland over the Caribbean.

 

If I did this 3 or 4 times and couldn't get in to any of these places I would take it as life's way of telling me to do something different. I would still not go to the Caribbean.

 

Really though, if you pass the MCAT, have >3.3 GPA and one ounce of social ability I have a hard time imaging none of these places working out after applying 3-4 times. Collectively there must be >50 something medical schools which are safer choices than even the best Caribbean medical school. RCSI, Dublin, Cork, Limerick, Sydney, Gallaway, Queensland, Melbourne, Flinders, Wollongong, National Australia.... I could go on and on and I haven't even started with the US and UK yet...

 

Unless you, your significant other, your parents, or someone else who is loaded can cosign for you, then none of those places are viable. Most people can barely secure a $160,000 line of credit WITH a cosigner who has lots of equity...so there is unfortunatley no way most people can afford those commonwealth schools.

[VanMD]

Personally, I would apply to the USA, UK, Ireland and Australia. Why these places... They are all about the same price at the end of the day with some minor exceptions. USA and Australia both provide one excellent opportunities to practice in these countries, so they win out over the Caribbean. RCSI in Ireland matched in Canada at 100% in 2008. The other Irish schools are likely similar. So I would take Ireland over the Caribbean.

If I did this 3 or 4 times and couldn't get in to any of these places I would take it as life's way of telling me to do something different. I would still not go to the Caribbean.

Really though, if you pass the MCAT, have >3.3 GPA and one ounce of social ability I have a hard time imaging none of these places working out after applying 3-4 times. Collectively there must be >50 something medical schools which are safer choices than even the best Caribbean medical school. RCSI, Dublin, Cork, Limerick, Sydney, Gallaway, Queensland, Melbourne, Flinders, Wollongong, National Australia.... I could go on and on and I haven't even started with the US and UK yet...

 

WOW.. really. Someone with the same stats as you or even better, take it as a sign to do something different??!??!?! I was waiting for someone to say that. It would just give me more motivation to work harder.

 

Well I am at SGU and I am perfectly fine with the challenge of how difficult it will be. Again, as I said above, I can live perfectly fine in the USA or in Ontario or Quebec working as a Physician. I don't have a desire to return to BC. The great thing about forums is you never know who you chatting with on the other end. I will come back in a couple of year and post a follow up on how things went.

 

Re: I would never consider an Australian school. UK schools of course, but they are slim in picking and UK's anti-immigration policy is not something that would be . RCSI is a great school and I have friends in 3 year there who love it. At over 60k$ for tuition alone + 20K for living costs = $80,000K/yr. It is out of my price range.

[5jy4]

VanMD, just wondering why you're so adamant that Australia is a bad choice. From what I gather on this forum, and in others, everyone has nothing but positive things to say about their schools, and they do let you do residency there. Plus don't they give you 6 months to do electives at home, and have a better Carms match rate than the Carribean schools?

[CAS]

VanMD, just wondering why you're so adamant that Australia is a bad choice. From what I gather on this forum, and in others, everyone has nothing but positive things to say about their schools, and they do let you do residency there. Plus don't they give you 6 months to do electives at home, and have a better Carms match rate than the Carribean schools?

 

yeah... i'm curious about this too

Australia is my backup after North America (esp. considering price is on par with US and the living standards are very Cdn-esque)

[VanMD]

yeah... i'm curious about this too

Australia is my backup after North America (esp. considering price is on par with US and the living standards are very Cdn-esque)

 

For me Australia is less of an option, because less exposure to USA clinical rotations. Except the new program with rotations in Louisiana (which is only open to US citizens). Also way too far from N.American style medicine.

 

I figure matching in Canada in my first choice specialty is slim, so most likely I will be matching in the USA. Having US rotations would benefit me the most in matching in states. Also when you are applying to Canadian residency, program directors advised me that US rotations are the 2nd best thing to Canadian ones.

 

Doing 6 Months back home at a cost to you? Does the school pay for it? SABA allows you to do many of your rotations at home and they have a good match record in Canada. The biggest problem with doing rotations on your own is you are not at a school affiliated hospital and this becomes important when you are trying to apply for licensing in some of the US states. Also most Canadian schools have lots of limitation on the number of rotations, which ones and when you can do them. Most require student to be in their final year (4th year). That is going to be after you submitted your CaRMS application and too late to submit letters of reference from those spots.

[VanMD]

Also you need to look at the policy of other countries regarding doing residency there and if it would be accepted in Canada as equal. Immigration regulations regarding doing residency training there?

 

So far, from what I learned, only US residency and board certification will allow you to return to Ontario and Quebec (if you are a QC citizen/resident) and not do any further exams. If Ontario does it you bet most of the other provinces will follow very soon. Except BC, which I have already said... can go and deal with itself apropriately.

[alex.nic]

Hi Guys,

 

I usually try to stay away from the international section of this forum (due to the frustration I feel when reading so many negative, personal opinions), but I signed on recently and this thread caught my attention.

 

I have always been interested in pursuing medicine, but I have also always wanted to do so abroad. The idea of combining my studies with traveling and gaining international experience seemed perfect, and so I began to research schools that could best suit my goals. Ultimately, I aim to practice family medicine in Canada and volunteer for MSF when I can.

 

Long story short, I researched my options exhaustively and applied/was accepted to schools in Australia (Queensland), Ireland (RCSI) and St. George’s University Global Scholars Program.

 

To be honest, my first choice and the program that had me most excited was/is the Global Scholars Program at SGU. My first year of study will take place in England, second year in Grenada and clinicals in the US. There have been some issues with residency in California and rotations in New Jersey as my program is somewhat new, but I am open to pursuing residency in Canada or the US and I am confident I can do so.

 

From the research I’ve conducted, the ideas VanMD has put out there are completely true (minus the fact that I believe Australia is also a completely viable route that will lead to success as an MD in Canada or elsewhere). I’m not naïve. I know studying internationally makes life more difficult for us, but at the same time we are gaining so much in life experience. Residency is very possible (for now, we will likely be matched in the United States, but Canada has been making the steps to open the doors).

 

Really, I just want to throw it out there to anyone reading the forums and letting people’s opinions get to them: do the research. Decide what you want, where you want to be and what programs fit you best. Study hard and you can make it happen.

 

Sorry for the long post… I was just feeling a little frustrated with all the school bashing. Good luck to everyone with their future studies! And Van, thanks for injecting a little reality into this discussion

[Swift Fox]

Unless you, your significant other, your parents, or someone else who is loaded can cosign for you, then none of those places are viable. Most people can barely secure a $160,000 line of credit WITH a cosigner who has lots of equity...so there is unfortunatley no way most people can afford those commonwealth schools.

 

And Van, thanks for injecting a little reality into this discussion

 

Really? Caribbean schools are cheaper and offer more? Lets have a fact based reality check...

 

 

RCSI - $220,000

Bond - $200,000

Limerick - $190,000

Dublin - $190,000

SGU - $180,000

Trinity - $170,000

Western Australia - $160,000

Sydney - $160,000

Cork - $160,000

Queensland - $160,000

Tasmania - $150,000

National Australian - $130,000

Wollongong - $130,000

Melbourne - $130,000

Flinders - $120,000

Monash - $120,000

Toronto - $80,000

UBC - $60,000

Calgary - $60,000

McGill - $50,000

 

GREEN = IRELAD (Near 100% match in CaRMS)

RED = CANADA (Virtual guaranteed match in CaRMS)

BLUE = AUSTRALIA (Can stay and practice in Australia + good CaRMS match)

ORANGE= SGU (Unlikely to match in CaRMS)

 

What my colleague said on here is absolutely correct. If you must leave Canada go to the USA. If you must leave mainland North America go Australia or Ireland or UK. It only makes sense to address the schools in that order from a financial and career perspective.

[VanMD]

Really? Caribbean schools are cheaper and offer more? Lets have a fact based reality check...

 

 

RCSI - $220,000

Bond - $200,000

Limerick - $190,000

Dublin - $190,000

SGU - $180,000

Trinity - $170,000

Western Australia - $160,000

Sydney - $160,000

Cork - $160,000

Queensland - $160,000

Tasmania - $150,000

National Australian - $130,000

Wollongong - $130,000

Melbourne - $130,000

Flinders - $120,000

Monash - $120,000

Toronto - $80,000

UBC - $60,000

Calgary - $60,000

McGill - $50,000

 

GREEN = IRELAD (Near 100% match in CaRMS)

RED = CANADA (Virtual guaranteed match in CaRMS)

BLUE = AUSTRALIA (Can stay and practice in Australia + good CaRMS match)

ORANGE= SGU (Unlikely to match in CaRMS)

 

What my colleague said on here is absolutely correct. If you must leave Canada go to the USA. If you must leave mainland North America go Australia or Ireland or UK. It only makes sense to address the schools in that order from a financial and career perspective.

 

SGU gives most Canadians international bursary up to 40k

 

SGU - $180,000-$40,000 = $140,000

[VanMD]

Also considering SGU has only been allowed to Match in Canada since 2 or 3 years. It is not a fair assesment.

 

I really invite you to review SGU a bit more and see what its like. I know other schools in the carrib are not that great.. but really SGU is a business and they are the closest thing to US or Canadian school. Our teachers come from UBC, UWO and other Canadian locations.

 

The match record in the US are first class considering location.

[Swift Fox]

Also considering SGU has only been allowed to Match in Canada since 2 or 3 years. It is not a fair assesment.

 

What are you talking about?

 

SGU was always allowed to participate in CaRMS. Just few were successful in passing the MCCQE or being successful in the match. In the past two years maybe a generous 10 in total have matched from SGU. It has nothing to do with not being allowed to match.

 

If you want your CaRMS odds take 4 and divide it by X Canadian students in your class... But then again you have to consider the fact that SGU experiences 8% attrition... So a bunch won't make it to year four...

[Alastriss]

What are you talking about?

 

SGU was always allowed to participate in CaRMS. Just few were successful in passing the MCCQE or being successful in the match. In the past two years maybe a generous 10 in total have matched from SGU. It has nothing to do with not being allowed to match.

 

If you want your CaRMS odds take 4 and divide it by X Canadian students in your class... But then again you have to consider the fact that SGU experiences 8% attrition... So a bunch won't make it to year four...

 

I'm pretty sure rogerroger has done an assessment that concluded that for matching purposes going to australia or ireland is way better. I hope he is around to see this and direct us to that post.

[VanMD]

I never said that going to UK or Ireland doesn't have better match record in Canada. They do. There is an article on CMAJ about that and you can look it up.

 

Before 2004, IMGs had a more difficult time applying to CaRMS because the parallel match did not exist and they had to go for 2nd match. I don't want to go looking for a link, but google search can dig it up.

 

For the ~400 Canadians at SGU we seem to be doing just fine (actually often better than the US students). I am comfortable with doing residency in the USA and working there or abroad with MSF or UN or wherever.

 

It doesn't look like some of you will ever be convinced to consider SGU as a possible method of getting an equal MD for those who did not get in to Canadian medical school. I hope this will not translate to ignorance once you complete your rotations and are in the hospital and you meet an SGU student or Grad.

 

For the record, I never said it was THE BEST option. It is one alternative. Anyone who contacts me and asks me about applying to SGU, I always ask them to reconsider applying to Canadian or USA schools first. Even if it takes 2 years to improve their grades or MCAT score.

 

Good luck to you cause I don't have more time to waste on here.

 

PS. The GSP program is a great opportunity to get some different experience, since you are in the UK for one year. Also living in Grenada is crazy and the personal experience you gain here will serve most of us in the future. You have to deal with a lot of things, inconveniences but it makes you appreciate things much more. The culture experience is priceless, but dam its hot outside.

[rogerroger]

I'm pretty sure rogerroger has done an assessment that concluded that for matching purposes going to australia or ireland is way better. I hope he is around to see this and direct us to that post.

 

 

 

Yes, I have written extensively on this topic. I hope these are of use to those contemplating becoming an IMG.

 

 

http://www.premed101.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27219 -- Being a Canadian IMG - breaking down the match numbers

 

http://www.premed101.com/forums/showpost.php?p=250879&postcount=8 -- Routes Home from Overseas

 

http://www.premed101.com/forums/showpost.php?p=250954&postcount=10 -- Australia and the greater options for specialization

 

http://www.premed101.com/forums/showpost.php?p=260988&postcount=34 -- H1B visa and DO's decreasing US match odds

 

http://www.premed101.com/forums/showpost.php?p=269521&postcount=48 -- Real standards are required to be sucessful in Ireland and Australia

[xylem29]

Really? Caribbean schools are cheaper and offer more? Lets have a fact based reality check...

 

 

RCSI - $220,000

Bond - $200,000

Limerick - $190,000

Dublin - $190,000

SGU - $180,000

Trinity - $170,000

Western Australia - $160,000

Sydney - $160,000

Cork - $160,000

Queensland - $160,000

Tasmania - $150,000

National Australian - $130,000

Wollongong - $130,000

Melbourne - $130,000

Flinders - $120,000

Monash - $120,000

Toronto - $80,000

UBC - $60,000

Calgary - $60,000

McGill - $50,000

 

GREEN = IRELAD (Near 100% match in CaRMS)

RED = CANADA (Virtual guaranteed match in CaRMS)

BLUE = AUSTRALIA (Can stay and practice in Australia + good CaRMS match)

ORANGE= SGU (Unlikely to match in CaRMS)

 

What my colleague said on here is absolutely correct. If you must leave Canada go to the USA. If you must leave mainland North America go Australia or Ireland or UK. It only makes sense to address the schools in that order from a financial and career perspective.

 

Those numbers are incorrect, unless you have references to back them up. I don't have references to back what I'm about to write but I'm pretty sure your numbers are inaccurate. Did you take into consideration the conversion b/w the CDN dollar the AUS one?

 

Do those numbers include living expenses and airline tickets? It costs $3000 dollars to fly to AUS from Toronto.

[rogerroger]

Those numbers are incorrect, unless you have references to back them up. I don't have references to back what I'm about to write but I'm pretty sure your numbers are inaccurate. Did you take into consideration the conversion b/w the CDN dollar the AUS one?

 

Do those numbers include living expenses and airline tickets? It costs $3000 dollars to fly to AUS from Toronto.

 

Well I crossed checked some of Swift's numbers... Kinda harsh to say they are incorrect because they have no source... How much stuff do these Internationals regularly source??? This forum is powered by sketchy numbers, vague assumptions and rumours. I applaud Swift for trying to bring some real figures into the debate.

 

UofT's numbers are bang on.

 

The Aussie figures are about right: http://solojourney.org/2008-list-of-all-australian-medical-schools-and-tuition-cost-for-full-fee-paying-internationals/

 

Also I know RCSI is over 200 grand. The fees quoted for SGU are right too, just check ValueMD. Also the Aussie dollar is pretty much on par with the Canadian dollar (+/- 0.05)...

 

Flights... Well lets see here... It would cost me about $450 one way to Grenada to visit the beach at SGU on Dec. 15 during my break... SOURCE: https://www.orbitz.com/Secure/ViewFlightInformation?retrieveParams=true&z=c06f&r=hz&z=c071&r=i1&lastPage=interstitial

 

The numbers are pretty consistent into January in terms of ticket prices...

 

I assume you would come home for Christmas etc. if your in Granada. Not so if your in Australia. So in the end you might spend $3000ish a year on plane tickets from Australia and $2400ish in Granada... When your dishing out $200,000 the small difference won't make a huge dent... I wouldn't decide my future on the cost of an airline ticket.