St George

[xylem29]

Yes, but you still didn't account for living expenses. I will admit that when I did my calculations in the summer, it was in comparison to UQ, and not the other schools.

 

For flights I calculated two trips, one to go at the start of school and one to come back for the summer. Why would you throw in a calculation for SGU (x-mas flight) and exclude it from the AUS calculation - there's no point in comparing then.

 

The Irish schools are definitely not affordable for some students, that I'm certain of. The EU dollar is quite a bit more than the CDN one.

 

Anyway, yea - don't forget about cost of living.

[Swift Fox]

Yes, but you still didn't account for living expenses. I will admit that when I did my calculations in the summer, it was in comparison to UQ, and not the other schools.

 

For flights I calculated two trips, one to go at the start of school and one to come back for the summer. Why would you throw in a calculation for SGU (x-mas flight) and exclude it from the AUS calculation - there's no point in comparing then.

 

The Irish schools are definitely not affordable for some students, that I'm certain of. The EU dollar is quite a bit more than the CDN one.

 

Anyway, yea - don't forget about cost of living.

 

You guys are entirely missing the point. Someone on this forum said that SGU is more affordable than the other options. The fact is it is expensive. Some are more expensive and some are less. But SGU is still expensive and leaves you with less options in quickly paying off that debt, securing the specialty you want and living in the country you call home.

 

Is that clear now?

[xylem29]

You guys are entirely missing the point. Someone on this forum said that SGU is more affordable than the other options. The fact is it is expensive. Some are more expensive and some are less. But SGU is still expensive and leaves you with less options in quickly paying off that debt, securing the specialty you want and living in the country you call home.

 

Is that clear now?

 

Yes, you are right. When I was doing my comparisons over the summer, I was assuming that said person would want to match into Canada for FM (ANYWHERE)...so that's why I concluded that the caribbean would be the best option. Overall, it is about $20K to $30K cheaper than going to AUS (SABA vs UQ). Ireland is more expensive than both.

 

I also assumed that said person would be the 3.6+, 30+ MCAT person who "just" missed it in Canada/US and has the potential to succeed in medical school, do well on Step 1, and do well during clerkships.

 

But yes, your options are far greater when going to Ireland or AUS...but if one does not want these options?

[alex.nic]

Well, I also think what Van was trying to address is the fact that, yes... graduating from Aus or Ireland may give you better chances at matching in Canada... but matching in Canada can be difficult for all international graduates anyways so it's smart to have other options. SGU students have the added benefit of having a great chance at matching in the USA incase Canada doesn't pan out.

[KennethToronto]

I had this really long reply regarding the cost of tuition, but my computer hates me so it's gone. I was going to add that the Canadian costs don't take into account OSAP and significant student financial aid. I know the $18,000 UofT tuition seems steep, but once you factor in those other things, it starts to look something like $10,000/yr.

 

Regardless, attending school in Canada is cheaper than going away and it's infinitely less risky. I'm not going to get into which route gives you a better education, but to say going to medical school consists of staring at Netters for 12 hours/day is completely off the mark.

[xylem29]

I had this really long reply regarding the cost of tuition, but my computer hates me so it's gone. I was going to add that the Canadian costs don't take into account OSAP and significant student financial aid. I know the $18,000 UofT tuition seems steep, but once you factor in those other things, it starts to look something like $10,000/yr.

 

Regardless, attending school in Canada is cheaper than going away and it's infinitely less risky. I'm not going to get into which route gives you a better education, but to say going to medical school consists of staring at Netters for 12 hours/day is completely off the mark.

 

If you're implying that the curriculum at SGU is like this, you are quite misinformed. Stay tuned folks. I have a friend who just started MS3 this year (Preclerkships done at SGU), he did very well on Step 1, is from UToronto - doing clerkships in NYC right now, plans on coming back to Canada to do FM. We'll see what happens in 2 years.

 

I'll ask him about how prepared he felt going into clerkships and if he feels disadvantaged somewhat compared to his US School "preclerkship" trained (lol) peers...

[KennethToronto]

If you're implying that the curriculum at SGU is like this, you are quite misinformed. Stay tuned folks. I have a friend who just started MS3 this year (Preclerkships done at SGU), he did very well on Step 1, is from UToronto - doing clerkships in NYC right now, plans on coming back to Canada to do FM. We'll see what happens in 2 years.

 

I'll ask him about how prepared he felt going into clerkships and if he feels disadvantaged somewhat compared to his US School "preclerkship" trained (lol) peers...

 

Nowhere in my original post did I say the SGU curriculum involves staring at Netters. It was in response to a previous comment by Leviathan:

 

It's unfortunate that most of Canadian medical associations have such a pretentious and xenophobic view on people who study abroad. The first two years are spent in the supposed 'dubious' institutions in the Caribbean, but who can tell me what is actually different about where in the world you are studying from Netters or Robbins or Harrison's Internal Medicine? The final two years are done in US hospitals, where the only difference that can really be defined is that they practice medicine slightly different from Canadians with more diagnostic investigations and less physical examinations (and much more defensive practices).

[Zuckman]

Those numbers for the tuition at medical schools are definitely way off. Sydney is 10K more in tuition per year than UQ. The Euro is very strong so going to Ireland makes it even more difficult. Ireland is quite a lot more expensive than Oz. Many courses in Ireland are 5 years so add that extra cost of not working, living expenses, etc.

 

Don't forget, the DO schools and the MD schools in the US can be VERY expensive. Check out the tuition at Wayne State or Michigan State College of Human Medicine. This is also in US dollars so it's going to be quite a bit more for us Canadians. If you go to primary care after paying that kind of tuition, it's going to be very hard to pay off the debt. Also, most medical students will be going to primary care because that's where most of the residency spots are. Most people simply won't get the derm, rad, opthamology spots. These are very difficult to get as a US or Canadian graduate too.

[alex.nic]

Ya I agree... RCSI costs 45,000 Euro/yr for non-EU students

 

That works out to about 280,000 over 4 years when you do the conversion.

[VanMD]

Another thing I forgot to add. SGU prepares students for USMLE (Ireland, UK, and Australia does not). I don't have a link to all the research that I looked up and wrote a thread about it, but I know many who went there and wrote the step 1 and did not do well or failed and now have that on their record. Closing the door to good US residency spots.

 

So yes the all mighty match record for these schools in Canada are better than SGU's. But please do post which spots they matched in to. Primary care?

 

SGU did one Ortho and one Rad Onc at UofT this last cycle. Anesth the year before. I don't want to do FP in Canada, so for me US is much better prospect.

[Alastriss]

Another thing I forgot to add. SGU prepares students for USMLE (Ireland, UK, and Australia does not). I don't have a link to all the research that I looked up and wrote a thread about it, but I know many who went there and wrote the step 1 and did not do well or failed and now have that on their record. Closing the door to good US residency spots.

 

So yes the all mighty match record for these schools in Canada are better than SGU's. But please do post which spots they matched in to. Primary care?

 

SGU did one Ortho and one Rad Onc at UofT this last cycle. Anesth the year before. I don't want to do FP in Canada, so for me US is much better prospect.

 

Just playing devil's advocate, doesn't it make sense to see how many didn't match into ortho for that one guy who did?

[VanMD]

Just playing devil's advocate, doesn't it make sense to see how many didn't match into ortho for that one guy who did?

 

Play devil's advocate all you wish. As long as you enjoy it.

 

I don't know how many Canadians applied to match in Canada last year. But because we know its slim chance many more apply to US residency. Many of US have spouses, wives, partners and we don't want to risk being separated by applying to Canadian match system.

 

I don't understand this allergy some of you developed against IMGs (or more specific those who don't chose to be closer to US system (i.e. Carib) over Commonwealth system (i.e. Australia, UK, Ireland). I believe it has to do with the Canadian health care and the hesitation that I have encountered from physicians towards IMGs. I guess it is a protective effect considering there is a risk for competition for resources in the future. Don't worry, I am as Canadian as you, I have every right to work in my country and earn a good living. Because of the shortage of health care providers, there will be plenty of resources to go around. Maybe some of us can prevent you from being overworked and overstressed.

 

But then again, many of us are becoming unhappy with the idea of jumping up and down to please others and will just decide to live and work in the US.

[Alastriss]

Play devil's advocate all you wish. As long as you enjoy it.

 

I don't know how many Canadians applied to match in Canada last year. But because we know its slim chance many more apply to US residency. Many of US have spouses, wives, partners and we don't want to risk being separated by applying to Canadian match system.

 

I don't understand this allergy some of you developed against IMGs (or more specific those who don't chose to be closer to US system (i.e. Carib) over Commonwealth system (i.e. Australia, UK, Ireland). I believe it has to do with the Canadian health care and the hesitation that I have encountered from physicians towards IMGs. I guess it is a protective effect considering there is a risk for competition for resources in the future. Don't worry, I am as Canadian as you, I have every right to work in my country and earn a good living. Because of the shortage of health care providers, there will be plenty of resources to go around. Maybe some of us can prevent you from being overworked and overstressed.

 

But then again, many of us are becoming unhappy with the idea of jumping up and down to please others and will just decide to live and work in the US.

 

Hey, I personally don't have an allergy, but I did end up discouraging (not directly) people from applying to the Caribbean. I did that just by directing them to information to help them make their decision. Which brings me to the first thing I have against the school. I feel that people going to the carrib are not being informed of all the obstacles. All they read are success stories in their admissions package and get a high on them one day having their own success story.

I knew people that thought you automatically ended up in the US because of year 3 and year 4. He didn't even know about residency and what the H1B or J1 visa is and these were accepted people - how outrageous is that?

 

I think people in generally see them as diploma mills, but commonwealth countries are medical schools not necessarily for that purpose.

 

Secondly, they seem to have very relaxed admission acceptance rates. Not saying this is to everything that is accepted, but some people that were accepted haven't proven themselves.

 

I know many people who struggled hard in undergrad because they thought it was tough, didn't do well on the MCAT on repeated tries, and are now studying to become a physician. There is a reason why medical schools require high marks - not just because a doctor needs to be smart (I am not arguing this) but because they need to have the longevity to make in the rigorous MD program. You have high attrition rates in the carrib - not at all something you see in Canada or the US.

 

Secondly, I question their interview process. So many people didn't take it seriously due to their high stats (30+) and had no problem. Others who were in it strictly for the money and hadn't the slightest clue as to what a doctor's role is still made it. Another guy made it because he wanted to make a lot of money and support a large family of 6+ children (I am not joking), Didn't care about the profession. If the school cared about him as a person, they wouldn't have admitted him in.

 

Which brings us to why the carrib schools have a bad stigma. It seems that everyone I talked to that is "allergic" to the carrib is because these people see these schools as a business that makes money off people's dreams

 

Personally, I think we need schools like these. There are a lot of people that deserve to get in but can't in Canada or the US. Yet I think the may need to be regulated more.

[VanMD]

Hey, I personally don't have an allergy, but I did end up discouraging (not directly) people from applying to the Caribbean. I did that just by directing them to information to help them make their decision. Which brings me to the first thing I have against the school. I feel that people going to the carrib are not being informed of all the obstacles. All they read are success stories in their admissions package and get a high on them one day having their own success story.

I knew people that thought you automatically ended up in the US because of year 3 and year 4. He didn't even know about residency and what the H1B or J1 visa is and these were accepted people - how outrageous is that?

 

I think people in generally see them as diploma mills, but commonwealth countries are medical schools not necessarily for that purpose.

 

Secondly, they seem to have very relaxed admission acceptance rates. Not saying this is to everything that is accepted, but some people that were accepted haven't proven themselves.

 

I know many people who struggled hard in undergrad because they thought it was tough, didn't do well on the MCAT on repeated tries, and are now studying to become a physician. There is a reason why medical schools require high marks - not just because a doctor needs to be smart (I am not arguing this) but because they need to have the longevity to make in the rigorous MD program. You have high attrition rates in the carrib - not at all something you see in Canada or the US.

 

Secondly, I question their interview process. So many people didn't take it seriously due to their high stats (30+) and had no problem. Others who were in it strictly for the money and hadn't the slightest clue as to what a doctor's role is still made it. Another guy made it because he wanted to make a lot of money and support a large family of 6+ children (I am not joking), Didn't care about the profession. If the school cared about him as a person, they wouldn't have admitted him in.

 

Which brings us to why the carrib schools have a bad stigma. It seems that everyone I talked to that is "allergic" to the carrib is because these people see these schools as a business that makes money off people's dreams

 

Personally, I think we need schools like these. There are a lot of people that deserve to get in but can't in Canada or the US. Yet I think the may need to be regulated more.

 

I agree with you on the above post. I skimmed through it and I think I agree with 99% of what you said. I will re-read later.

 

Yes, not everyone deserves to be a Physician!!! But there are many people like Alex.nic and I, and many of the Canadians down here who are very well qualified to be physicians.

 

To pass from basic science at SGU you now need 2.5 GPA.. so yes accepting more people and losing 8-10% of the idiots is ok with me. 2.5 GPA translates to 75% on all examinations. All of our basic science exams are multiple choice and 70% is a pass. We use the exact same book as US and Canadian schools and our exams are as difficult. I can tell you for a fact that I compared them. We don't have pass fail, we have A (90%+), B (80%+) and C (70%+).

 

SGU is a business. I think I posted that above 2 twice. RCSI is also a business... they overcharge north americans that attend that school. They have 4, 5, and 6 year medical programs. They opened up a second campus in Dubai (I think) for a reason.. MONEY.

[VanMD]

Oh and the interview process... yes it is much more relaxed. But knowing from many current UofT and UBC students who are disfuntional in so many ways, they practiced for 6 months for their interviews, studying exactly what to say and what can be asked of them.

 

Don't worry once clinics comes around and residency application, those from SGU who have problems will be easy to spot.

[alex.nic]

It might be important to note that I was accepted to Queensland without any interview as they no longer conduct them. How's that for a relaxed policy?

 

The average MCAT scores of students applying to SGU is 9/9/9. The average GPA is 3.3. 18% of the accepted students have advanced degrees.

 

This is definitely lower than Canadian schools. But many Australian schools only require 8/8/8 and I believe the cut off is a 2.5 gpa.

 

Only saying this to present a fair assessment of both paths.

[alex.nic]

Also, like Van said, our teacher's come from excellent teaching schools like UWO and our system is based on a Cnd/American model. We also do clinical rotations in teaching hospitals alongside American med school students. So, I can't comment for all Carib schools, but I don't think its fair to write off SGU based on its location.

[Alastriss]

Oh and the interview process... yes it is much more relaxed. But knowing from many current UofT and UBC students who are disfuntional in so many ways, they practiced for 6 months for their interviews, studying exactly what to say and what can be asked of them.

 

Don't worry once clinics comes around and residency application, those from SGU who have problems will be easy to spot.

 

But that's exactly it! How is it fair to that student who invested so much in their education/took 3 years of their life, and came to the clinicals only to realize that they are not up for the challenge? I think we need to keep this in mind.

 

I think its this that gives the school a bad name and is generally unfair to those students who are qualified and are paying large sums of money to become physicians. They are also being unfair to students who are not educated about the hardships of coming back to canada or the hardships of medicine. The moment they show themselves as a business, they cease to be "educational institutions" in the eyes of the admins in Canada.

 

Like I said, we need schools like these to fix our broken admissions system. Its sad how I have a friend with a 34O mcat and a 3.7 gpa (3.9+ in her last two years) is seriously considering going out of the country to become a physician. A more open minded attitude may help parse the students who were supposed to be admitte to a canadian school but didn't due to unfortunate reasons from those who aren't.

[rogerroger]

Also, like Van said, our teacher's come from excellent teaching schools like UWO and our system is based on a Cnd/American model. We also do clinical rotations in teaching hospitals alongside American med school students. So, I can't comment for all Carib schools, but I don't think its fair to write off SGU based on its location.

 

To blow up another misconception...

 

Australia's medical curriculum is based very strongly on the Canadian system. In fact, many of the newer Australian medical schools have had assistance from faculty from places such as UBC and Mac.

 

One example is Wollongong. Their system is so close to UBC's that they use an application system which is virtually identical. They address the exact same questions and rank applicants using the same formula.

 

So sure, SGU might be based off of US/CAN cirriuculum. But Australian schools look principally to Canada and the UK for medical education innovation.

 

I just wanted to clarify that for those who might think Australian medical education is very different from ours in Canada.

 

On a related note, the new University of Limerick in Ireland is modeled on the Mac curriculum. I know that during their Canadian interviews they had Mac faculty in attendance.

 

Just something to ponder...

[Zuckman]

I have to say that SGU is definitely on a better level than the other Caribbean schools. They admit some very strong students, have great facilities, and have strong match stats. My friend interviewed with them. He said it was far more professional than the interviews he had in Canada. The interview was standardized (same questions for all applicants) and he had to do an essay on the spot.

 

The only reason that SGU has a stigma is that it's situated in the Caribbean where there are loads of horrible medical schools. SGU is simply not on the same level as the other Caribbean schools. Anyone who has researched these schools knows this.

 

As for Caribbean schools being a business...this is true. So are the Irish schools, Australian schools, and any school admitting internationals. They want our money!! Since there's so much competition for Canadian medical school spots, these international medical schools will be accepting some outstanding students.

 

I still would rather an education from Ireland or Oz than the Caribbean though. I feel that the reputation of an education in Ireland or Oz is strong. I'm 100% sure that the quality will be no less than in North America. I can say that I'd be very proud to go to one of these schools for the education and the experience.

 

It's true that the medical schools in Ireland and Oz don't prepare for the USMLE. Neither do the Canadian schools. There is going to be some extra preparation to do well on the USMLE's. However, RCSI is known for being very supportive of its students taking the USMLE's and their students do very well. UQ and Sydney have really increased the science components of their medical programs which also helps for the USMLE. UQ's curriculum is modelled after Mac's too. The general topics covered in all these medical schools will be similar. What you get out of it depends on how much you put into it

[VanMD]

Wow... Common sense alludes 75% of you on this forum... Explaining things to you from the perspective of reality from inside Canadian health care is like banging my head against a reinforced concrete wall...

 

I think I could say that there is only a 10% chance of matching in CaRMS and that tuition will cost you 1 million dollars at 15% interest and most of of you would still go to the damned Caribbean school.

 

Who is lending you this money? They need their head checked... So do your cosigners... No wounder the worlds financial institutions are in a hole. Just about anyone can get money lent for just about anything it seems...

 

I give up, its hopeless... Good luck talking some sense into these guys Roger and KennethToronto... You will need it... As for me, I am going to found a Caribbean med school to pay off my loans and live like a king during residency. I think I will call it, Swift Fox's Med School For Kids Who Can't Read Good, more commonly known as SFMKCRG...

 

Your right. You just convinced me to drop out and go become a nurse. Or better yet a lab tech. Thanks Swift for your wisdom. You saved me so much pain and trouble.

[Swift Fox]

Wow... Common sense alludes 75% of you on this forum... Explaining things to you from the perspective of reality from inside Canadian health care is like banging my head against a reinforced concrete wall...

 

I think I could say that there is only a 10% chance of matching in CaRMS and that tuition will cost you 1 million dollars at 15% interest and most of of you would still go to the damned Caribbean school.

 

Who is lending you this money? They need their head checked... So do your cosigners... No wounder the worlds financial institutions are in a hole. Just about anyone can get money lent for just about anything it seems...

 

I give up, its hopeless... Good luck talking some sense into these guys Roger and KennethToronto... You will need it... As for me, I am going to found a Caribbean med school to pay off my loans and live like a king during residency. I think I will call it, Med School For Kids Who Can't Read Good, more commonly known as MKCRG... I shall build it on Prickly Pear Island. More info on easily accessible location can be found at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prickly_Pear_Island . Required GPA= 1 MACT = 5, match rate expected to be 99%.

[Alastriss]

Wow... Common sense alludes 75% of you on this forum... Explaining things to you from the perspective of reality from inside Canadian health care is like banging my head against a reinforced concrete wall...

 

I think I could say that there is only a 10% chance of matching in CaRMS and that tuition will cost you 1 million dollars at 15% interest and most of of you would still go to the damned Caribbean school.

 

Who is lending you this money? They need their head checked... So do your cosigners... No wounder the worlds financial institutions are in a hole. Just about anyone can get money lent for just about anything it seems...

 

I give up, its hopeless... Good luck talking some sense into these guys Roger and KennethToronto... You will need it... As for me, I am going to found a Caribbean med school to pay off my loans and live like a king during residency. I think I will call it, Med School For Kids Who Can't Read Good, more commonly known as MKCRG... I shall build it on Prickly Pear Island. More info on easily accessible location can be found at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prickly_Pear_Island . Required GPA= 1 MACT = 5, match rate expected to be 99%.

 

 

 

You forget that our system is not all correct. We have so many qualified students in ontario who don't get in but have 3.8+ gpas, 30+ mcats, and then you have others that do either by merit or IP residency, or a combination of both. Too many students from BC, Calgary, and the east coast willingly admit that they got in based on their residency.

 

Do you suggest those that didn't get in forget about medicine entirely?

 

Secondly, your post made it sound that people who go to SGU do so with the intent of matching into carms. SGU prospectives know that US residencies is where they will likely be placing, not carms. I don't know enought to compare curriculums, but I hear that some Aus have stronger curriculums than SGU. Yet SGU's advantage is spending 3rd and 4th year clinical rotations in NYU which can really help matching there by getting to know the right people (a lot more residency seats than med school seats).

 

To those who really want to practice medicine, that 1 million + 15% interest + losing sleep about your future is really worth it. Just because it isn't to you, doesn't mean it isn't to everyone.

 

I alluded to a lot of SGU applicants being accepted regardless of what they know about medicine and health care. I also mentioned how many of them who haven't proven themselves on paper academically are accepted and are simply not capable of handling the academic stress. I think those are the ones that are frustrating you swift_fox, as well as the administration that is letting them in to make profit. Neither are you impressed with an administration that skews their opinion by posting a few success stories and neglecting the multitude of failure stories as well as generally informing students about the obstacles present.

 

yet there are a handful, that are just pursuing the dream they not necessarily couldn't pursue in Canada or the US, but don't want to spend years stuck in the premed rat race. I don't think your post is fair to those people.

 

Just an FYI, the cosigners are usually parents and the financial institutions make sure the cosigners can pay if there is a problem so i don't get where this whole world economic crisis comes in if these institutions have their asses covered.

 

Your post wasn't at all considerate to a handful of students, or their parents, and I mean that with the utmost respect. And for the record, I am not considering international schools. I applied to 3 canadian schools, interviewed at 2, and didn't make it off the waitlist. So you know that what I said here, was not out of what would have been a personal attack on me, but simply as a premed who saw that your post was indeed a inconsiderate to a select few individuals.

[alex.nic]

Agreed. I've met quite a few students that will be attending SGU this January and we all have good stats... much higher than the average gpa/MCAT scores published. Ultimately, it ends up being a personal decision. Do we want to go to a commonwealth school that makes matching in Canada a bit easier, or SGU that allows for matching in the US and a chance at matching in Canada. We know we'll get residencies in one of these countries and most of us will be happy with either.

 

Swift Fox, to be honest ... your post comes off as being ignorant and offensive. Or maybe I'm just lacking the 'common sense' to decipher your actual intent. Look, none of us are idiots. We hear what you're saying... but you're wrong in grouping all Carib med schools into one category. I guess using your logic we could group all European schools into one category too. They're in the same general region of the world, so they've gotta be the same! And heck, makes for a better argument ..

[KennethToronto]

The problem with threads on offshore schools is that they always become charged because there are personal interests and emotions involved. I don't think Swiftfox is out to put down colleagues who have chosen alternate routes. What s/he's justifiably pointing out (and I've done the same), is that there are very public warnings by both the CFMS and other bodies that going away and then coming back to Canada isn't as viable as it may seem, and it's a decision that deserves careful consideration. One or two individuals matching back to Toronto is not an appropriate example and means nothing. Unfortunately, as I've seen with some of my friends, and likely far too many people, careful consideration isn't given.

 

So at the risk of sounding like a broken record, before going away, I'd think about the exorbitant costs and whether it's worth it, work visas, the very real possibility you'll fail out, have your hands tied (irrespective of whether you're applying stateside or back to canada) when you've suddenly developed a burning interest for some limited availability residency, Return of Service agreements, being very far from home, etc. I'll be the first to agree admissions to a Canadian school has an element of luck, but it isn't like they stuff your name in a hat. A lot of times, applicants can succeed if they just reapply, redo the MCAT, apply more widely, exploit the different selection schemes, put in some thought into why they actually are doing what they're doing and then express it efficiently.