skvangs Posted May 26, 2009 Report Share Posted May 26, 2009 I am a 1st yr student, going into 2nd come the fall, at a health science program. My first year wasn't bad, but it wasn't fantastic, this is due to one bad course (that ut will drop anyway). I have found a few bird courses (that sound very itneresting), hopefully, with any luck, my gpa should be quite good. Firstly, there seems to be this rampant and contraversial idea/opinion that health sci is easier than life sciences at most places. This, I must say is true, and this is infact the reason why I took this course of study, as opposed to something more "traditional". Some applicants to UofT say that UofT looks at the difficulty of courses and program when choosing applicants. On the website, it says that the reason why it drops the courses from a full timetable each year, is to "encourage" individuals to pursue more demanding courses. I really need to know how my application would look like if I apply from an "easy" undergraduate program with courses such as "History of Medicine" and/or "Sports and Recreation of Ancient Greece/Rome". I am positive this has been discussed previously, but I want to reach some sort of consensus. What are your ideas/ feelings. Does UT employ this practice, is it a beneficial practice, and most importantly, (for me) how would my example be viewed by the adcom? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamP Posted May 26, 2009 Report Share Posted May 26, 2009 I think it would be hard to find any school in Ontario that openly or even behind closed doors discriminates between undergraduate majors or courses. Whether that is the best practice or not is up for debate, it is certainly the easiest policy. I know there is one school out west, forget which one that openly says, or at least used to say that they considered the difficulty of coursework in their rankings. I suppose the debate will never end, but it can't be that controversial to say that hard work translates into better marks no matter what the program. On a relative basis of work done, you could probably argue all night on who's got it best (but if you're going to spend all night arguing there is probably far more exciting things to argue about ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supafield Posted May 26, 2009 Report Share Posted May 26, 2009 U of T used to state a few years back that they considered this.... That has since been removed and replaced with no preference between different degrees.... I don't think anyone outside of the admissions committee can say for sure whether or not they're still looking at this factor... But if I had to guess, the degree to which they deploy bonuses or penalty would be minimal and most likely to catch people with horrendously padded degrees... Even still.... they're getting over 3000 apps a year... I can't imagine they have the knowledge or wo/man power to go through everyone's courses and see how easy their courses are given course difficulty can change from one year to another drastically. This is all speculation of course, but it seems unlikely that they could go too in depth with these considerations just given normal time and resource limitations. I could be completely wrong though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skvangs Posted May 26, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 26, 2009 U of T used to state a few years back that they considered this.... That has since been removed and replaced with no preference between different degrees.... I don't think anyone outside of the admissions committee can say for sure whether or not they're still looking at this factor... But if I had to guess, the degree to which they deploy bonuses or penalty would be minimal and most likely to catch people with horrendously padded degrees... Even still.... they're getting over 3000 apps a year... I can't imagine they have the knowledge or wo/man power to go through everyone's courses and see how easy their courses are given course difficulty can change from one year to another drastically. This is all speculation of course, but it seems unlikely that they could go too in depth with these considerations just given normal time and resource limitations. I could be completely wrong though. touche, supafield. good points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
future_doc Posted May 26, 2009 Report Share Posted May 26, 2009 Assume that a great GPA with essentially birds courses are acceptable to adcoms. So what? This is only one factor. And should you be lucky enough to get an Interview, well nobody can bluff the MMI and they will measure many of your qualities on a competitive basis. Now let's assume, you don't get into med school, despite having it all. After all, acceptance is like winning the lottery, and there is a great deal of luck in both. If you don't make it and have taken relatively easy courses that do not prepare you for life, if you are unable to use your education as a springboard for a future career, then you shall not have accomplished anything positive for yourself. So, there needs to be a balance and you must have an alternative plan and be working toward your Plan B as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skvangs Posted May 26, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 26, 2009 Assume that a great GPA with essentially birds courses are acceptable to adcoms. So what? This is only one factor. And should you be lucky enough to get an Interview, well nobody can bluff the MMI and they will measure many of your qualities on a competitive basis. Now let's assume, you don't get into med school, despite having it all. After all, acceptance is like winning the lottery, and there is a great deal of luck in both. If you don't make it and have taken relatively easy courses that do not prepare you for life, if you are unable to use your education as a springboard for a future career, then you shall not have accomplished anything positive for yourself. So, there needs to be a balance and you must have an alternative plan and be working toward your Plan B as well. Well, I don't know if you are aware that UT has no MMI, but in sum, I agree with you. My program requirements will be complete (which has required me to take all the sciences 1st year). For me, I am completely sure that medicine is the only option for me, the only thing I can see myself doing, call me narrow minded but this is the truth. If I am unable to get in the first time, I will keep trying until I do. My gpa wasn't too bad, almost a 3.9 so not too sure if I am really competitive, but I know it is early and I don't want to be too much of a neurotic premed, the type that can be found in copious numbers on this forum. But, I reiterate, I agree with you for the most part. Thanks for the input! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bustylegs Posted May 26, 2009 Report Share Posted May 26, 2009 Even still.... they're getting over 3000 apps a year... I can't imagine they have the knowledge or wo/man power to go through everyone's courses and see how easy their courses are given course difficulty can change from one year to another drastically. This is all speculation of course, but it seems unlikely that they could go too in depth with these considerations just given normal time and resource limitations. I could be completely wrong though. They have endless free labor going through files for them; more specifically, medical students. Most of these students take their file review jobs seriously because we prefer not to let people who play the system get in. Conventional wisdom would have it that when it comes down to you and the other applicant, the one who takes harder courses win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supafield Posted May 26, 2009 Report Share Posted May 26, 2009 Fair enough.... is this based on course averages then? or is this determination just at the discretion of the medical student based on what he or she thinks sounds hard? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bustylegs Posted May 26, 2009 Report Share Posted May 26, 2009 Fair enough.... is this based on course averages then? or is this determination just at the discretion of the medical student based on what he or she thinks sounds hard? Sorry, Supafield. I re-read my post and it sounded like my reply was directed against *you*. It is not. by *you*, I meant anyone who's reading this post. I apologize for coming across as if I'm singling you out! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supafield Posted May 26, 2009 Report Share Posted May 26, 2009 Oh no problem! I was genuinely curious as it sounds like you have an idea of how this works... I was just wondering what makes one course harder than another...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamP Posted May 26, 2009 Report Share Posted May 26, 2009 Oh no problem! I was genuinely curious as it sounds like you have an idea of how this works... I was just wondering what makes one course harder than another...? I too am curious, there is no objective measure of course diffucilty, especially in sr. level courses when classes may have 5-30 people, so even getting an accurate average falls apart. lol but if they are going by hard sounding names (which i'm sure they're not), i should be coasting my way into u of t next year Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odie Posted May 26, 2009 Report Share Posted May 26, 2009 ^ I have heard of numerous "bird courses" and I know so many people that get bad marks in them. Something that is easy for one person may not be for another. I have this one friend who will recommend physics and math courses as easy. I'm sure not everyone would agree with him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supafield Posted May 26, 2009 Report Share Posted May 26, 2009 I too am curious, there is no objective measure of course diffucilty, especially in sr. level courses when classes may have 5-30 people, so even getting an accurate average falls apart. lol but if they are going by hard sounding names (which i'm sure they're not), i should be coasting my way into u of t next year lol If so I'll lobby Western to change my kin course "swimming skills" to Macro Hyperaquamechanics Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamP Posted May 26, 2009 Report Share Posted May 26, 2009 lol If so I'll lobby Western to change my kin course "swimming skills" to Macro Hyperaquamechanics lol and the funny thing is, i've heard from kin friends @ western that swimming is their hardest course Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supafield Posted May 26, 2009 Report Share Posted May 26, 2009 lol and the funny thing is, i've heard from kin friends @ western that swimming is their hardest course Lol my 2nd worst mark in university... To get 100 in any timed element of the course... you had to break the Western Varsity record lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KennethToronto Posted May 27, 2009 Report Share Posted May 27, 2009 They have endless free labor going through files for them; more specifically, medical students. Most of these students take their file review jobs seriously because we prefer not to let people who play the system get in. Conventional wisdom would have it that when it comes down to you and the other applicant, the one who takes harder courses win. There's a lot of logic here. Best post in this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamP Posted May 27, 2009 Report Share Posted May 27, 2009 There's a lot of logic here. Best post in this thread. still be interested to know what the criteria for "harder" would be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skvangs Posted May 27, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 27, 2009 I contacted Admissions and apparently they thought that the idea of people filtering out courses was ludicrous. They said, instead they use a software algorithm that automatically filters people's marks, drops lowest grades etc. No human will look at the courses (as long as the pre reqs are satisfied). If there are 2 individuals with same scores but diff programs, i.e, one "easier than the other", they will focus on the autobiographic sketch and LOCs+ interview comments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supafield Posted May 27, 2009 Report Share Posted May 27, 2009 I contacted Admissions and apparently they thought that the idea of people filtering out courses was ludicrous. They said, instead they use a software algorithm that automatically filters people's marks, drops lowest grades etc. No human will look at the courses (as long as the pre reqs are satisfied). If there are 2 individuals with same scores but diff programs, i.e, one "easier than the other", they will focus on the autobiographic sketch and LOCs+ interview comments. Haha... that's along the lines of what I would have figured... Just goes to show you... when there's a question concerning admissions, the admission's office is the place to ask... who would of guessed eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bustylegs Posted May 27, 2009 Report Share Posted May 27, 2009 I contacted Admissions and apparently they thought that the idea of people filtering out courses was ludicrous. They said, instead they use a software algorithm that automatically filters people's marks, drops lowest grades etc. No human will look at the courses (as long as the pre reqs are satisfied). If there are 2 individuals with same scores but diff programs, i.e, one "easier than the other", they will focus on the autobiographic sketch and LOCs+ interview comments. It really is a privilege to be involved in the admission process at U of T. I have signed a non-disclosure promising I will not tell anyone anything I learned during my capacity as a file reviewer. That non-disclosure, however, does not prevent me from sharing some common wisdom with others. Again, it is common wisdom to chose the "best possible candidates for medical school through assessing each applicant's overall achievements, including those in academic and non-academic areas." (taken straight from the admission website). http://www.facmed.utoronto.ca/programs/md/admissions/0910/process.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skvangs Posted May 27, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 27, 2009 I doubt that Admissions would straight out lie, to me about the software. I know for me, I am ok in my choice of program, but people who do Arts etc, will have a tougher time, if infact (which, somehow I doubt) students review the program, and coruses taken. Since you seem well versed with the UT website, "2) Is there an undergraduate program of study that is most suitable for admission to medicine? No. Students with university education in any discipline are encouraged to apply. Medicine requires individuals with strong backgrounds in the social sciences, humanities, physical sciences and life sciences. All programs are treated equally in the evaluation process (bolded by them, not myself) The original can be veiwed at http://www.facmed.utoronto.ca/programs/md/admissions/0910/faq.htm#eligibility It really is a privilege to be involved in the admission process at U of T. I have signed a non-disclosure promising I will not tell anyone anything I learned during my capacity as a file reviewer. That non-disclosure, however, does not prevent me from sharing some common wisdom with others. Again, it is common wisdom to chose the "best possible candidates for medical school through assessing each applicant's overall achievements, including those in academic and non-academic areas." (taken straight from the admission website). http://www.facmed.utoronto.ca/programs/md/admissions/0910/process.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bustylegs Posted May 27, 2009 Report Share Posted May 27, 2009 I doubt that Admissions would straight out lie, to me about the software. I know for me, I am ok in my choice of program, but people who do Arts etc, will have a tougher time, if infact (which, somehow I doubt) students review the program, and coruses taken. Since you seem well versed with the UT website, "2) Is there an undergraduate program of study that is most suitable for admission to medicine? No. Students with university education in any discipline are encouraged to apply. Medicine requires individuals with strong backgrounds in the social sciences, humanities, physical sciences and life sciences. All programs are treated equally in the evaluation process (bolded by them, not myself) The original can be veiwed at http://www.facmed.utoronto.ca/programs/md/admissions/0910/faq.htm#eligibility Just to clarify things a little. When I say "people who play the system". I am not referring to people who are in non-science courses. I am referring to people who always look for an easier way out. In fact, I personally find arts/engineering/philosophy extremely difficult, and I have a lot of respect for people who are in non-science programs. Do whatever makes you happy, but don't cut corners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skvangs Posted May 27, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 27, 2009 ok, bustylegs, good points though! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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