Married during Med school

[silvrsleuth]

i don't see pre-nups as not-romantic, or a bet on failure at all.

 

i'm not in med school yet ( ) so i can't comment on that. however, i've been with my partner for a lot of years (going on 9!) and we're both in our mid-twenties. we aren't married yet, although we plan to, once we have the money to do it, so i've got some thoughts on the pre-nup thing.

 

i have had the benefit of being all-but-technically married to this man for many years; much longer than many of my married friends have been with their current partners. we've gone in and out (and in my case, back in!) to school, which is an artificial environment that is NOT like the working world. believe me: people change, a lot.

 

also, it's not always the "we fell out of love" or "s/he cheated on me with so-and-so" things that break up a marriage. if you haven't been together all that long, you need to be prepared that you'll get some shockers in your relationship that neither of you can foresee: "Oh! You've changed your mind about having kids. I haven't". Or, "Oh! I didn't mind that you didn't have a job when we were 20, 22, 25 years old. I'm starting to mind that you still don't have a job at 30." Or, "Oh! You've lost all interest in sex with me?". Or, "Oh! YOU want a divorce? Didn't see that coming." These things can add up, to the point where you become very different people than the couple you started out being.

 

Obviously, many couples make it through these times, by becoming different people TOGETHER, rather than separately. But most of these things can't be predicted, and you can't guarentee that your marriage will go through them. Very few people go into marriages with every intention of them failing. Does that mean that all those people were idiots? Nope. It means that sometimes, things don't work out, even for good people who love each other very much.

 

what's my (long-winded) point? marriage is a contract. my bf and i love each other very much, but the difference between us and our married friends is that we're not a 'business' yet. we're committed. we're not going anywhere. we've got big joint purchases. i have complete trust in him and never plan to leave. but, we haven't melded our lives in the way married people do. when we do that, i want a pre-nup, just like i'd sign a lease on an apartment. it's not because i'm not a romantic - it's because, if things end because we grow apart, the LAST thing i want to put the man i once loved enough to marry through is a messy break down of our lives. it's like a will. we still write those, even though we'd like to think that our relatives could handle it all peacefully. it makes it easier on those who are grieving. a pre-nup will do the same, should your marriage end.

 

sorry this is SOOO (needlessly?) long. i'm bored at work!

[classA]

A pre-nup just makes divorce easier!!!!! If you go into a marriage thinking of yourself......be ready to be by yourself (well you will have your money)!

[Renin]

A pre-nup just makes divorce easier!!!!! If you go into a marriage thinking of yourself......be ready to be by yourself (well you will have your money)!

 

I'd rather have a broken heart + my money rather than a broken heart + no money.

 

Having no money REALLY sucks. Having no home sucks even more.

[silvrsleuth]

A pre-nup just makes divorce easier!!!!! If you go into a marriage thinking of yourself......be ready to be by yourself (well you will have your money)!

 

i doubt anything makes divorce easy, pre-nup or no. also, i would argue that the point of a pre-nup isn't thinking about yourself. it's thinking about protecting your partner (not necessarily from you, but from the legal systems we have in place that protect some but can financially drain others needlessly), and also, your kids, if you have any, or anyone else you provide long-term care for - a divorce may effect more people than the two getting divorced.

[Jochi1543]

I'd rather have a broken heart + my money rather than a broken heart + no money.

 

Having no money REALLY sucks. Having no home sucks even more.

 

I agree with you, Renin. Just because you think you'll stay together til death do you part, doesn't mean it will actually happen. I mean, no one goes into a marriage thinking "OK, we're DEFINITELY getting divorced down the road!"

[The_B]

I'm fascinated by the amount of support for prenups on the board. There must be a lot of people with lots of money here. Most medical students I know have no assets to protect prior to marriage, so a prenup is of little value.

[youngdad]

I agree with you, Renin. Just because you think you'll stay together til death do you part, doesn't mean it will actually happen. I mean, no one goes into a marriage thinking "OK, we're DEFINITELY getting divorced down the road!"

 

I believe the more things that a couple hold back the more difficult marriage becomes. Money is the most commonly reported "reason" for divorce. But in reality, money is almost never the real issue. Fights about money, sex, or any of the other "deal breakers" in a marriage are almost always caused by an underlying power struggle.

 

I believe prenups are a form of holding back. Holding cash back may or may not make a partner divorce more easily because of the conscious cushion of a bank account or home, but that is not the real issue. The threat to the marriage is that holding anything back makes it explicitly clear to the other partner that part of them is off limits. The sacrifice of something as petty as money is shown to be more important and give more security than trust in the partner, and a desire to start a completely new life together.

 

Further, when a couple does not share everything,(including money) they avoid certain disagreements that are essential to learning how to manage value differences in an equal partnership. These are key skills that the couple need in order to progress and learn more about each other. Partners that are not willing to sacrifice their desires for the other, or give way completely at times are no less married (made one) than two friends living together.

 

Obviously the level of 'money sharing' is going to differ in every family and not every couple that has segregated funds or prenups will fail. However, in my experience and in my reading I can say that the more each spouse shows they are willing to sacrifice all that they are for the new partnership, the greater the chance of success, and the more satisfying the relationship. I believe prenups show an unwillingness to sacrifice all.

[Renin]

I'm fascinated by the amount of support for prenups on the board. There must be a lot of people with lots of money here. Most medical students I know have no assets to protect prior to marriage, so a prenup is of little value.

 

My assets are near zero, but I don't want to be saddled with someone else's debt either

[silvrsleuth]

I'm fascinated by the amount of support for prenups on the board. There must be a lot of people with lots of money here. Most medical students I know have no assets to protect prior to marriage, so a prenup is of little value.

 

pre-nups can include provisions on future income as well - for example, will you pay alimony if you divorce? if you bought it without your partner, is it yours?

 

more importantly though, i think a lot of people don't realize that a pre-nup is not just for divorce. it's also in case of death, illness, or inheritance. will your spouse make decisions for you if you are incapacitated because of illness or accident? will they continue to receive money from your workplace after you die? what if someone leaves you in their will - will your partner also be legally entitled to use that money? these issues are particularly important if your parents or siblings are living, because they can contest all these things. you may love your partner - does your family? your workplace? your insurance company? if you don't feel you're in a place to draw up a will (ie: you have no current assets), pre-nups are the ideal substitute because you can will away FUTURE actions, and that's a lot easier to do in a prenup than in a will.

 

prenups just have a rep for being all about divorce, because that's how they're discussed in the media, who tends to polarize the issue. prenups are just as much about protecting your partner as they are protecting yourself. doesn't mean you have to have one... many (most?) people don't. a lot of people don't have wills, or child custody agreements. works out for some; doesn't work out for others.

[future_doc]

I'm fascinated by the amount of support for prenups on the board. There must be a lot of people with lots of money here. Most medical students I know have no assets to protect prior to marriage, so a prenup is of little value.

 

Well, prenups are also meant to cover a variety of situations. For example, let's say both parties agree that one of the spouses is meant to be the primary care giver, despite the fact that both intend to work. An agreement regarding primary custody in event of divorce prevents one spouse from seeking custody of future children, using the fact that the other spouse is working against him/her. Let's say one spouse is more strongly religious than the other and it is intended to bring the children up strongly in one religion. This should be considered in a prenup, as otherwise the strongly religious spouse would have an 'advantage' in the custody battle, arguing that primary custody should not go to the weaker religious spouse which will dilute the upbringing of the children.

 

And the money factor too cannot be avoided. Loving parents who want to help out with a substantial payment on the purchase of a new home will likely make their donation by way of an interest free mortgage, signed by both spouses, so that in the event of divorce their child's financial interests are protected.

 

A well thought out prenup can avoid many problems other than financial in case of divorce and is the opportunity to level the playing field for the time when one parent would otherwise have an advantage that does not exist today.

[future_doc]

My assets are near zero, but I don't want to be saddled with someone else's debt either

 

You are a highly successful doctor with an invested portfolio of $3 million. It is July 2008 and you are thinking of divorce. September 2008 comes, the market crashes, your portfolio is worth less than $2 million. Now is the time to take divorce proceedings. Your spouse will get half of the value of your assets as at the time of taking divorce proceedings. When the market returns, he/she will not share in the return of value.

 

People change, love changes and people whom you love today due to circumstances beyond your control can become your enemy. This is sad but true and may never occur or could happen in 20 years. The spouse with the greatest access to money will obtain the best lawyer and then you have no chance. It becomes a game of lawyers. Better to have a prenup and deal with potential problems when you love each other and each have a sense of fair play. No matter what we believe, we all have the capacity to hate and generally, hate occurs most often with people whom we have loved (if hate is ever to occur).

 

The patient about whom we greatly care will not think twice about taking a malpractice suit against any of us for neglience if they think they have a shot. Unfortunately our future spouse, then in a vulnerable state, will take the advice of friends, family and aggresive lawyers to go for the juggler with you and now, before marriage, is the window of oipportunity to resolve all kinds of potential future conflicts.

[mixmastermike]

this thread is depressing me...

[future_doc]

 

I have a great relationship with my longterm b/f. My studies, assignments, many ECs and volunteering keep me busy fulltime. As a result, except for breaks, I have little time for him, family or friends. I manage my time according to my priorities, and it works. I would not be able to cope well at this stage with marriage, a live-in relationship or kids before graduating from med school. Each of us are different and I admire greatly those who can.

[mixmastermike]

I believe the more things that a couple hold back the more difficult marriage becomes. Money is the most commonly reported "reason" for divorce. But in reality, money is almost never the real issue. Fights about money, sex, or any of the other "deal breakers" in a marriage are almost always caused by an underlying power struggle.

 

I believe prenups are a form of holding back. Holding cash back may or may not make a partner divorce more easily because of the conscious cushion of a bank account or home, but that is not the real issue. The threat to the marriage is that holding anything back makes it explicitly clear to the other partner that part of them is off limits. The sacrifice of something as petty as money is shown to be more important and give more security than trust in the partner, and a desire to start a completely new life together.

 

Further, when a couple does not share everything,(including money) they avoid certain disagreements that are essential to learning how to manage value differences in an equal partnership. These are key skills that the couple need in order to progress and learn more about each other. Partners that are not willing to sacrifice their desires for the other, or give way completely at times are no less married (made one) than two friends living together.

 

Obviously the level of 'money sharing' is going to differ in every family and not every couple that has segregated funds or prenups will fail. However, in my experience and in my reading I can say that the more each spouse shows they are willing to sacrifice all that they are for the new partnership, the greater the chance of success, and the more satisfying the relationship. I believe prenups show an unwillingness to sacrifice all.

 

so if they're not willing to sacrifice anything for you...does that mean it's over or should be over....?

[future_doc]

Wow some selfish attitudes on this thread.

 

Prenups are not selfish. They are meant to address legitimate issues that may come up at some time in the future - at a time when both parties have absolute good faith and honesty toward each other. BTW, each party must have independent legal representation or it will be set aside as illegal and invalid in any future dispute.

 

I know we each have different attitudes on such a document, but they are certainly not intended to be selfish where one party takes advantage of the other. It is sort of like requiring a patient to sign a Consent as a precondition to a surgical operation. After all, marriage is a Contract (religious, ethical, moral, legal), hopefully for a lifetime, and this is just another contract that normally is concluded prior to marriage.

[classA]

A pre-nup is obviously self serving for someone who wants to be a physician because they just want to protect their money. Any spouse with common sense should see this as a red flag. The relationship is already off to a dominate start.

 

And for whoever keeps saying marriage is a contract…your wrong it’s a commitment. If you live like it’s a contract then for sure get a pre-nup because you obviously do not know what your getting yourself into. So logically having a way out that pains you less makes sense in this case.

[Halcyon]

A pre-nup is obviously self serving for someone who wants to be a physician because they just want to protect their money. Any spouse with common sense should see this as a red flag. The relationship is already off to a dominate start.

 

And for whoever keeps saying marriage is a contract…your wrong it’s a commitment. If you live like it’s a contract then for sure get a pre-nup because you obviously do not know what your getting yourself into. So logically having a way out that pains you less makes sense in this case.

 

Personally, I'm not sure how I feel about pre-nups. I suppose everyone will have their own view. In my case, I am not worried about protecting my student debt, hahaha!

[Halcyon]

A pre-nup is obviously self serving for someone who wants to be a physician because they just want to protect their money. Any spouse with common sense should see this as a red flag. The relationship is already off to a dominate start.

 

And for whoever keeps saying marriage is a contract…your wrong it’s a commitment. If you live like it’s a contract then for sure get a pre-nup because you obviously do not know what your getting yourself into. So logically having a way out that pains you less makes sense in this case.

 

Seems weird to have everything so money-centric. You can lose it as fast as you can make it. What ever happened to love and happiness?

[future_doc]

A pre-nup is obviously self serving for someone who wants to be a physician because they just want to protect their money. Any spouse with common sense should see this as a red flag. The relationship is already off to a dominate start.

 

And for whoever keeps saying marriage is a contract…your wrong it’s a commitment. If you live like it’s a contract then for sure get a pre-nup because you obviously do not know what your getting yourself into. So logically having a way out that pains you less makes sense in this case.

 

Marriage is a commitment, of course. It is a legally binding commitment. And that makes it a contract. We are just playing with words, a commitment by both parties is a “meeting of the minds” which is a contract.

 

A pre-nup is not ‘obviously’ self-serving to a person who intends to be a physician b/c that person wants to protect their future money. A non-working spouse will receive considerable support payments according to the means and income of the physician spouse, and if having custody, will receive further monies in child support so that they all may live in the style to which they have become accustomed on the basis that the physician can afford same. And a marriage contract will not protect the physician.

 

Both parties have independent legal representation. I have no money. When I marry I want a pre-nup to cover a range of issues, many non-monetary. It is not about having a plan with a way out. It is simple common sense. It is for me, regardless of how wealthy my future spouse may be.

[future_doc]

Seems weird to have everything so money-centric. You can lose it as fast as you can make it. What ever happened to love and happiness?

 

Marriage is all about love and happiness and more. Going on a trip to Africa on safari is exciting. Are you not going to get shots for your protection? A marriage contract goes with the territory. I repeat, I have no money and if my intended was wealthy, I would insist upon a marriage contract. If he insisted upon protecting his every cent from me, this would be a worthwhile exercise, as I would likely never agree. However, as I intend never to be dependent upon another adult, I might agree ..... and insist that he agree to buy and maintain a certain amount of life insurance as each child is born, and to cover the cost of a home we purchase so that he keeps his money but I and my future children are protected come what be, that in event of dissolution of the marriage, I continue to live in the matrimonial home with the children. I would also insist upon being primary care giver of the children until age 13 when they can make their own decision. These are practical points to cover, so walking in, he is covered, Iam covered, the children are covered and we have made another "comitment" to each other that just like marriage, is legally binding.

 

Then may we live happily ever after! But if not, practical matters have been addressed at the best of times.

[classA]

Clearly, the judgemental comments are not going to stop any time soon.

 

This is a completely ignorant statement and you clearly have not read the details of posts written by people on the other side of the debate.

 

If my fiance and I break up any time during the first decade of marriage, without a pre-nup, this is what will hapen:

he will end up not only supporting me through my whole degree, he will also end up inheriting a chunk of my debt, and he will probably have to provide me spousal support.

After a few years, I will be making much much more money than him, and he'll end up completely screwed

 

A pre-nup makes sure that this scenario can never happen. I'll have you know that my fiance is incredibly grateful that I care this much about ensuring that our financial affairs are fair.

 

Getting married during a professional program involves a unique and very complicated financial dynamic of huge debt and no income, then large future income. The courts are not where I would want the matter settled if it comes to that.

 

Please read someone's comments and think about them carefully before condemning their personal, consensual, and yes legal choices as wrong.

 

If when you get married you don't want a pre-nup, that's your choice and if it's the right one for you, I don't see anything wrong with that.

 

I love it. How long you been engaged for?

 

I am married and have been for awhile. I speak from experince you do not.

[classA]

Come on now. Saying you want a prenup so your partner has no worries?

We've lost reality on this discussion. A prenup is for the writer/wanter. Lets not go over board on defense of prenups here.

[future_doc]

Come on now. Saying you want a prenup so your partner has no worries?

We've lost reality on this discussion. A prenup is for the writer/wanter. Lets not go over board on defense of prenups here.

 

(10 characters)

[classA]

Im just saying lets keep with reality a prenup is for yourself. Period. If you say it is not well then keep kidding yourself.

 

Make your own decisions of course I am not saying not having a prenup is end all be all. I can see that your opinions are for a prenup yeah great good for you. But dont come across as if your doing it for someone else besides yourself.

[future_doc]

Im just saying lets keep with reality a prenup is for yourself. Period. If you say it is not well then keep kidding yourself.

 

Make your own decisions of course I am not saying not having a prenup is end all be all. I can see that your opinions are for a prenup yeah great good for you. But dont come across as if your doing it for someone else besides yourself.

 

We all have free will and are not trying to convince each other of our own views. This is a discussion. And we all do what is best for us. Best of luck to you.