Jump to content
Premed 101 Forums

Abortion doc murdered in Wichita


Recommended Posts

  • Replies 111
  • Created
  • Last Reply
Good people do good deeds, evil people do evil deeds, but for a good person to do evil... that takes religion.

 

That's not really pertinent or appropriate. The story linked only dealt with religion in describing the doctor's religious activities, and I suspect this was only mentioned because he was killed in a church. To insinuate that the evil deed of the killer is rooted in religion is a bit of a jump, especially when so few details are known about the suspect right now.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That's not really pertinent or appropriate. The story linked only dealt with religion in describing the doctor's religious activities, and I suspect this was only mentioned because he was killed in a church. To insinuate that the evil deed of the killer is rooted in religion is a bit of a jump, especially when so few details are known about the suspect right now.

 

still, the act was probably based on the murderer's religious background.

 

Source: Wikipedia

Certain organizations in the United States which oppose abortion either explicitly or implicitly advocate violence against abortion providers in contrast with the majority of the anti-choice movement. Two such organizations are The Army of God, an underground network of activists who believe that the use of violence is an appropriate tool for fighting against abortion, and the American Coalition of Life Activists, who published the Nuremberg Files.

 

The Nuremberg Files was a controversial anti-abortion web site which published the names, home addresses, telephone numbers, and other personal information of abortion providers – highlighting the names of those who had been wounded and striking out those of which had been killed. The site was accused of being a thinly-veiled hit list intended to incite violence; others claimed that it was protected under the First Amendment of the United States Constitution.[30] A 9th Circuit Court of Appeals decision finally shut the site down in 2002 after a prolonged debate.

 

In August 1982, three men identifying as the Army of God kidnapped for eight days Hector Zevallos (a doctor and clinic owner) and his wife, Josalee Jean.[31] In 1993, law enforcement officials found the Army of God Manual, a tactical guide to arson, chemical attacks, invasions, and bombings.[31] The Army of God justified the actions of Paul Jennings Hill on the grounds that "whatever force is legitimate to defend the life of a born child is legitimate to defend the life of an unborn child... if in fact Paul Hill did kill or wound abortionist John Britton, and accomplices James Barrett and Mrs. Barrett, his actions are morally justified if they were necessary for the purpose of defending innocent human life".[9]

 

These are some organizations that were linked to anti-abortion violence. All of which are strongly tied to religion.

The Army of God

American Coalition of Life Activists

Human Life International

American Life League

 

Plus, almost every anti-abortion protest I see has some stupid reference to God.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That's not really pertinent or appropriate. The story linked only dealt with religion in describing the doctor's religious activities, and I suspect this was only mentioned because he was killed in a church. To insinuate that the evil deed of the killer is rooted in religion is a bit of a jump, especially when so few details are known about the suspect right now.

 

I think it is BOTH pertinent and appropriate--it provides important context to the story. I think you have to be pretty stupid to not think that there is a >95% chance that this was religiously motivated.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

People kill people because they (1) want to kill someone, (2) are crazy, or (3) a combo of 1 and 2. I'm not so much interested in the motivations they give for killing him - even if the killer is affiliated with a religious group, that doesn't mean that religious people kill others; it means that some killers use religion as an excuse or a crutch.

 

I'm more interested in what this means about (1) the state of the abortion debate in america, (2) what this means for doctors who practice socially-controversial but medically-acceptable activities, and (3) whether this will spark any interest in the debate here in Canada. As someone who's worked in reproductive health for many years, I know that many people here are unaware of our own laws on the subject, and events like this tend to bring that to the fore.

 

My musings, anyway.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree that the most likely explanation is religious controversy. A religious doctor that performs abortions is killed in a church? Nah, religion has nothing to do with this story.

 

 

that doesn't mean that religious people kill others

 

No, it doesn't mean that but religion does cause alot of death. Everyone involved in the Crusades were either crazy or just wanting to kill someone? I don't think so. Religion and cult-like followings can make generally good people do morally corrupt deeds. Personally, I have a negative view of most mainstream religion, especially when *it* is used to take advantage of other people.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

People kill people because they (1) want to kill someone, (2) are crazy, or (3) a combo of 1 and 2. I'm not so much interested in the motivations they give for killing him - even if the killer is affiliated with a religious group, that doesn't mean that religious people kill others; it means that some killers use religion as an excuse or a crutch.

 

you'd have to wonder, though, if religion wasn't there in the first place, would these killers have gotten to the point where they felt so strongly about killing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest viscous
you'd have to wonder, though, if religion wasn't there in the first place, would these killers have gotten to the point where they felt so strongly about killing.

 

If money was not there in the first place, would the murderers reach the point to kill someone to steal their money?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If money was not there in the first place, would the murderers reach the point to kill someone to steal their money?

 

This is not the same thing at all. Greed is something everyone can understand. The desire to have money with which to improve one's own life and the lives of their loved ones is not exclusive to any race or creed or, indeed, religion.

 

However, the kind of belief it takes to think that killing this husband and father of four because of the work he does is not something that would occur without religion. For someone to believe so strongly in this sort of thing, and for these otherwise good people (as many of these murderers are) to do something so evil, that requires religion.

 

edit: Your post is a great example of a logical fallacy, by the way.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If money was not there in the first place, would the murderers reach the point to kill someone to steal their money?

 

money, a means to obtain food and shelter, is necessary in society.

 

what does religion give us?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is not the same thing at all. Greed is something everyone can understand. The desire to have money with which to improve one's own life and the lives of their loved ones is not exclusive to any race or creed or, indeed, religion.

 

However, the kind of belief it takes to think that killing this husband and father of four because of the work he does is not something that would occur without religion. For someone to believe so strongly in this sort of thing, and for these otherwise good people (as many of these murderers are) to do something so evil, that requires religion.

 

edit: Your post is a great example of a logical fallacy, by the way.

 

My point addressed this precisely. You don't have to be religious to believe life starts at conception (or sometime before birth) and many non-religious individuals would kill to prevent mass murder. Its not a huge leap of logic and it doesn't require religion.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Does anyone believe a fetus is a human from birth?

 

If you believed you were saving hundreds from a murderer would you kill?

 

Not excusing anything that the "Army of God", but just pointing out that its not entirely an illogical action.

 

that's an interesting point. if i can save that many _born_ lives by killing a serial murderer, for sure i would. but the difference is that the death of a born life inflicts so much pain upon others (ie parents, siblings, relatives, friends) whereas the death of a 20 week fetus can give the mother a chance for a better life.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

that's an interesting point. if i can save that many _born_ lives by killing a serial murderer, for sure i would. but the difference is that the death of a born life inflicts so much pain upon others (ie parents, siblings, relatives, friends) whereas the death of a 20 week fetus can give the mother a chance for a better life.

 

Not saying its right, just saying that it can be reached logically.

 

Apparently, according to the Spec, he specifically provided late term abortions, and there was some accusations that he was not seeking a proper second opinion for them. So we aren't talking about 20 week fetuses but rather quite possibly ones that had a chance of surviving outside the womb.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Societal stability

 

i anticipated this but there's really no way we can argue for or against.

 

i would say that our moral values (which you and I can agree leads to stability) come from our evolution as a communal species. from about 250,000 to 400,000 years ago, our species has been selecting for altruistic traits (such as helping others find food) because the species as a whole would benefit by such cooperation. this is the reason we feel nice inside when we hold the door open for an elderly woman and we feel fear when we stand at the edge of a cliff. however, this entire argument presupposes that you believe in evolution theory.

 

if you do, then we do not need religion for society stability and, thus, the need for money far outweighs the need for religion. if you don't, then i guess you can argue that god created us all and made us have good moral values and thus we need to all believe in him in order to exercise these values or else we have anarchy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Apparently, according to the Spec, he specifically provided late term abortions, and there was some accusations that he was not seeking a proper second opinion for them. So we aren't talking about 20 week fetuses but rather quite possibly ones that had a chance of surviving outside the womb.

 

that's a whole other point. if it's a law that he shouldn't provide late term abortions then he should be dealt by the justice system accordingly.

 

i'm sure these acts of violence against abortionists and abortion clinics have not taken into account when abortions took place, rather, if the abortions took place at all.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What a laugh. Religion just loves to coopt all the good things innate in humanity while ignoring the evil it pushes people to, doesn't it? The apologism is this thread is disturbing.

 

Or the anti-religious behaviour.

 

Do you think the government should ban religion if its responsible for such evil.

 

You sir/ma'am have no clue about what religion is about, and if you did would not make such an ignorant comment.

 

Humans are not by nature a nice species. We are evil, greedy and selfish. Almost every religion encourages individuals to overcome this nasty behaviour and put others above themselves. Yet, as with any organization humanity's evil nature has lead to individuals using and manipulating its structures to serve their own prejudices, desires and violent tendencies.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Does anyone believe a fetus is a human from birth?

 

If you believed you were saving hundreds from a murderer would you kill?

 

Not excusing anything that the "Army of God", but just pointing out that its not entirely an illogical action.

 

It's different. The majority of the world, religious combined are relatively indifferent to abortion. The fanatics are the ones that would kill the doctor in the belief that he's murdering thousands..although where does that follow god's guidelines in the first place?

 

The only way I can argue against the need for religion for social stability is my experience. I don't need a fabricated prophet to tell me how to lead a moral life. Further, I don't need a group of men from thousands of years ago telling me what THEY believed to be moral (whether they even believed it, or if it was for power and money) when they wrote the bible- especially since things like collective morality change as we progress as a civilization. If you follow the Bible selectively, are you really following god if he was the one who created it? Seriously, from my perspective, if you are against abortion because the Bible says so, you should also be against women's rights, homosexuality, pre-marital sex and birth control. How does that fit into a medical profession? Are those beliefs even somewhat appropriate when you are dealing with the general public in a state of empathy?

 

Here's an interesting and unrelated read: http://www.fstdt.com

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Not saying its right, just saying that it can be reached logically.

 

It's only logical if you don't give morality any weight, and believe it's justified to kill this one person to save others (although as it happens it would also result in the death of some mothers as well, so it's not all kittens and rainbows).

 

Anyway, you're just mulling over the classic morality question of whether you'd kill one to save ten or a hundred. While we could all give whichever answer to that question, to actually carry out such an action, to kill this husband and father of four, that requires someone whose sense of morality is horribly distorted.

 

And, incidentally, not only is religion the best source of distorted morality, but it's also apparently the group which has a monopoly over this particular type of evil. While monopoly over various types of evil is something religion is famous for, I don't believe there has yet to be an abortion doctor whose murder wasn't committed by some religious nutjob.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.


×
×
  • Create New...