mattg Posted August 28, 2009 Report Share Posted August 28, 2009 here comes another referee question... and i know that nobody know's my situation as well as I do, and nobody know's the quality of my relationships with the referees as well as I do, but any general input would be appreciated:D I have 4 prospect referees, and I obviously need to choose 3 as soon as possible... here they are: 1) A doc I shadowed every week for the past 3 months, as well as did a bit of research for... he is a staff neurologist at sunnybrook and assistant prof at U of T... he had said he'd be happy to write a reference letter, and although he doesn't know me THAT well, he still knows me and what I'm about, and he said that he has written plenty of reference letters, and he'll blow it up as much as possible, and write a solid letter... also he said that he doesn't mind saying that he's known me for a year or so, as opposed to 3 months (if that matters at all)... I suppose this letter would be academic (via research & sending him my transcripts, etc.) as well as character based (based on talking to me, having me shadow him, interactions with patitents, and sending him my resume I guess to briefly comment on anything else, etc.) 2) My NSERC prof (PhD) for this summer, again who I've only known for 3 or 4 months... but unlike the doc, I've worked for her every day this summer (although that's not to say that I see her daily --- I probably only actually see her once a week / talk to her a couple times a week by phone). Again, she said she'd write me a good one, based on my academics (research + sending her my transcripts, etc.), works ethic, a bit on character, etc. 3) A high school teacher that I know pretty well, and that I have coached the high school girls varsity softball team with for 4 out of the past 5 years... she also taught me in a couple high school classes, so I suppose she could mention my academics a bit, but the letter would be moreso character/leadership based... I've known her for 5 or 6 years, and she know's me pretty well 4) My friend's mom, a family doc (wouldn't be writing as "my friend's mom"), but she was part of a 'charity' (not a real one --- costs thousands of dollars to set up, need an accountant, lawyer, etc. ) that me and a few friends started... the charity wasn't too strong, but we've still been steadily working at it, doing some good (having banquet halls freeze the leftovers rather than throw them out, we'd pick them up, and deliver it to people in need in the area (vaughan)... turned out to be a lot of single moms)... she's known me for 3 or 4 years... doesn't know me extremely well, but know's me a fair deal, and definitely knows about the charity and such Soooo (if anyone is actually still reading:p )... I don't know who to cut... do I want two academics (1+2) and a character (even though the academics would involve some character --- it's not like they are academic in the sense that they just taught a class I did well in or something)?? Is it much weaker to have 2 of 3 letters from people who have only known you for about half a year or so? Or does it not really matter, as long as they are still in the position to comment on your traits? If I cut my NSERC prof, would the doc alone be enough of an 'academic letter', just having done some research for him once a week for a few months (+ seeing my transcripts)?? If not, I guess I have no choice but to include 1+2 (I don't want to cut #1, just because I think him saying I would be a really goold candidate or whatever would sound best coming from a UofT neurology prof/Sunnybrook Dr)... if I have to, which of 3+4 would you cut? I am reluctant to cut one, because both the charity and baseball were fairly long term commitments that I have done, and both I think exemplify pretty solid characteristics, and whichever I cut gets barely any mention (aside from the essay I suppose for UofT, and like a one-liner in the ABS for the rest of the schools... plus I guess if I got an interview)... Is time they have known you (extent you which they know you) of principle importance, or does it not matter as long as the letter is solid? Is it better to have 2 character if possible, just because academics speak for theirself(marks, research experience, etc), at lesat moreso that character does... but like I said, would the doc be academic enough? (since at least 1 is required) How important are credentials (in which case, if important, I suppose the highschool teacher would not measure up to two MD's and a PhD)? Really ANY advice would be really appreciated (if anyone made it through this beast of a post)... Again, I KNOW that I know my situation best, but I'm just looking for any input, and especially some input into some of the more general questions I asked... Matt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
future_doc Posted August 28, 2009 Report Share Posted August 28, 2009 Matt, I would go with 1, 2 and 3. They are all strong and cover the bases and t hat is precisely what you need. Also, they will know how to tick of the CAS properly, etc. You are good to go! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattg Posted August 28, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 28, 2009 thanks for the input! why 3 over 4, just out of curiousity? And so you don't 2 out of referees having only known me for around 6 months each won't hurt? Same with 2/3 academics? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
future_doc Posted August 28, 2009 Report Share Posted August 28, 2009 3 knows you really well and she knows the drill, will cover all the bases for a strong LOR, will be a strong advocate. 4 is 'almost' doing a favour, is not used to the drrill, does not know you nearly as well - so why risk using someone who is a potential greater risk. I used a coach as reference in the past and I accidentally saw a form she filled in. Inadvertantly, she killled me, I didn't bother telling her that, I won't use her again. She meant well, but seriously messed me up meaning to do only good - I learned to pick referees with greater care. You require credible people as referees who will validate what they say....6 mo is enough to make an assessment. I know a h.s. student who got into college and used her math tutor as a reference, the tutor knew her for only 3 months, however, this girl showed such dedication, enthusiasm and follow thru within the first week, and in 3 mo. she demonstrated all the atributes required of an excellent and motivated UG student. She received a knock out and credible reference, that is what matters only. You are good to go, stop second guessing yourself my overly analysing things and driving yourself crazy, your instincts are excellent! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattg Posted August 28, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 28, 2009 just to clarify... do you mean to use 4, and not 3? You said use 3 (the teacher I have coached with)... but then said a coach of yours screwed you over in the past... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
future_doc Posted August 28, 2009 Report Share Posted August 28, 2009 I mean to suggest that you use only 1, 2 and 3 - all of whom together will cover all bases. Yes, I told you a coach (not from school) scrwed me over b/c she was totally unfamiliar with the form and ticked off the boxes that effectively indicated I would be good at car washing. All this is good b/c I learned that good will ain't enough, what is obvious ot me is not necessarily obvious to another. By the way would you be my reference?jk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattg Posted August 28, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 28, 2009 ooh, I get what you're saying... so you really think a high school teacher is more likely to be familiar with the reference letter game than a Dr would be? Her daughter recently got into UofT and her son's applying this year... I doubt the teacher has ever written a LoR before, but I could be wrong... why do you think the teacher would put greater care into it than my buddy's mom, just out of curiosity? (and I think you're right actually, hah) that's too bad to hear about the coach... what happened, just was way way too honest and not generous enough? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
future_doc Posted August 28, 2009 Report Share Posted August 28, 2009 the teacher is in the teaching business, the getting ahead business. Mind you, there are two aspects to the LOR. Firstly there is the Confidential Assessment Form and you want to be marked in the top 10% in the many categories, if the person feels uncomfortable with that, move on. Ticking these boxes appropriately to your cause is essential. Then, there is the optional LOR to cover ground with a story or two. You need to ask for a "strong" LOR and they should have your updated CV to know precisely what you are up to in your life. My coach ticked the wrong boxes she didn't mean to tick, damage done and does not know it to this day. She wrote a glowing LOR and then the CAF was inconsistent with what she wrote b/c of the inadvertant ticking. And I need an academic reference, but no prof knows me, only face recognition and great marks...dont know if I will use any of them b/c they really have nothing to say about me, but I'll figure it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shannn Posted August 28, 2009 Report Share Posted August 28, 2009 My coach ticked the wrong boxes she didn't mean to tick, damage done and does not know it to this day. She wrote a glowing LOR and then the CAF was inconsistent with what she wrote b/c of the inadvertant ticking. And I need an academic reference, but no prof knows me, only face recognition and great marks...dont know if I will use any of them b/c they really have nothing to say about me, but I'll figure it out. Oh shoot, that sucks. Yikes, I guess they ticked without looking Hwo did you find out about it though? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattg Posted August 28, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 28, 2009 so academic references are more valuable that character/community-type references (or at least references from academics), in that 2 of 3 letters, if possible, should be academic? I wasn't sure about this... because I would think that an academic reference is least valuable, since marks, awards, research, etc. pretty well speaks for itself academically, whereas character references (ie. community involvement and such) really needs a subjective voice... ooh, that's too bad to hear about the academic reference... do you think you're going to end up asking a prof? or can't any academic just comment on your transcript, work ethic, and intelligence (such as any doctors or PhD's you may know), and that would be considered academic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
future_doc Posted August 28, 2009 Report Share Posted August 28, 2009 I was in her office weeks later and accidently saw it. I never mentioned it but it is a lesson learned, only "we" are really concerned about our references and only we truly understand their importance. This year I definitely will bring the CAF to the attention of my references and I will underline its importance, that I require a "strong" reference and if I see the slightest degree of hestitancy or uncertainty in body language, I will not use this person. Anything less than "strong" is effectively useless and could do damge. Thus, my dilemma about going to a prof who only knows my gardes and face. I will likely use people in healthcare who acted as supervisor in volunteering and in interning with patients who are able to commenty on my responsibility, compassion, knowledge, skills, communication skills and my intellectual capacity and curiosity. A prof will say "very bright girl", it ain't enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
future_doc Posted August 28, 2009 Report Share Posted August 28, 2009 My transcript speaks for itself, good grades, Dean's List, so what. To me an academic referee needs to cover character too, it cannot be a no name reference, if it is, it is worthless in my opinion, which is where I am. I don't kiss a**, I understand the lectures and readings, I do all my assignments, etc. However, b/c of my EMS first responding, I have supervisors and docs who know me inside out, same with my interning with elderly chronic patients, I got an A+ but the prof wouldn't recognize me if he saw me, but my interning supervisor who also hired me as a paid employee knows everything about me, my work ethic and intellectual capacity, so I figure I am covered anyhow. These people will cover me academically in the sens of intellect and ability to learn as well as character et al. I dont know any PhDs but in my EMS a physician takes legal responsibility for all I do in the field and with hundredds of hours behind me, the doc is able to discuss my activities and capacity in depth. There is a solution to every problem (except sadly a DNR). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shannn Posted August 28, 2009 Report Share Posted August 28, 2009 so academic references are more valuable that character/community-type references (or at least references from academics), in that 2 of 3 letters, if possible, should be academic? I wasn't sure about this... because I would think that an academic reference is least valuable, since marks, awards, research, etc. pretty well speaks for itself academically, whereas character references (ie. community involvement and such) really needs a subjective voice... ooh, that's too bad to hear about the academic reference... do you think you're going to end up asking a prof? or can't any academic just comment on your transcript, work ethic, and intelligence (such as any doctors or PhD's you may know), and that would be considered academic? Academic referees can also talk about your character as well. Out of my 3 referees are: -2 profs -1 supervisor I have volunteered for 2 years with One of my profs knows me personally, we've eaten many meals together, I've been to her house a couple of times, I know her kids personally, I've even been to her parents' place. I also have research done with her, a poster presentation submitted to a huge conference with her, and I got an A+ in one of her courses. My other prof, well, she knows me somewhat personally (just occasional convo, she knows some details about my personal life), and I have done research with her and she is going to help me publish a paper, plus I got 2 A+'s with her. So I think there are a lot of character aspects she can focus on there as well ontop of academics. Get to know your profs, it is totally worth it --- On the horror story side of things, one of my friends asked their prof for a reference, and they gave one. At the interview, they found out that the prof literally just wrote that they received an A+ in the course and only checked off the academic parts of the CAF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
future_doc Posted August 28, 2009 Report Share Posted August 28, 2009 shann, you are the poster child of doing things right re profs and I am at the other end of the spectrum on your horror side of things, so me thinks I will stay away from profs for a reference. I am a no name student with great marks, lots of ECs and volunteering and never invested the time to get to know my profs. Honestly though, I am so busy, my ECs and volunteering time is substantially more than classes and studies that it would not have been worth the effort in my case on a prioritization and time management basis. However, you are absolutely right in everything you say, well done! We each create our own path..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattg Posted August 28, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 28, 2009 Out of my 3 referees are: -2 profs -1 supervisor I have volunteered for 2 years with So I assume you have knwon all 3 of your referees for a while? I'm just a little worried about having 2 that have known me for only 6 months or so... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattg Posted August 28, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 28, 2009 Another thing I'm thinking is, if I cut #4, then I lose a letter focusing on a charity me and my friends started, and then this just disappears into the other 150char mentions within the ABS... well, also the essay for UofT, and maybe the Mac questions... is wanting a certain activity ) to be highlighted (as opposed to personal characteristics, even though those would obviously be within the letter) a legitimate reason to pick a referee? Or is it more you are picking the referee for the referee---for what they will have to say about you personally, rather than picking someone in order to highlight something you have done...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shannn Posted August 28, 2009 Report Share Posted August 28, 2009 shann, you are the poster child of doing things right re profs and I am at the other end of the spectrum on your horror side of things, so me thinks I will stay away from profs for a reference. I am a no name student with great marks, lots of ECs and volunteering and never invested the time to get to know my profs. Honestly though, I am so busy, my ECs and volunteering time is substantially more than classes and studies that it would not have been worth the effort in my case on a prioritization and time management basis. However, you are absolutely right in everything you say, well done! We each create our own path..... Thanks. Having all profs as a reference is not necessarily important. My friend who is at UT and Western for Meds told me that she only had one prof as a reference, and two realllly great character references. You sound like your have some really great people who can write you references, so I think you should be more than fine using them. Better to have a great letter from someone who actually knows you than from a professor that writes a mediocre one based on your grade in the course. Out of my 3 referees are: -2 profs -1 supervisor I have volunteered for 2 years with So I assume you have knwon all 3 of your referees for a while? I'm just a little worried about having 2 that have known me for only 6 months or so... I've known one of the profs (the one who I am really close with) for about 4 years. The second prof I've only known for about 1.5 years, but she is super friendly and I participated a lot in her class and went to office hours Another thing I'm thinking is, if I cut #4, then I lose a letter focusing on a charity me and my friends started, and then this just disappears into the other 150char mentions within the ABS... well, also the essay for UofT, and maybe the Mac questions... is wanting a certain activity ) to be highlighted (as opposed to personal characteristics, even though those would obviously be within the letter) a legitimate reason to pick a referee? Or is it more you are picking the referee for the referee---for what they will have to say about you personally, rather than picking someone in order to highlight something you have done...? I think any or all of the references you posted would be more than great. My friend at UT meds got in with a reference letter from her high school teacher she's known for 8 years. she wrote her a really good LOR Double check on the school LOR requirements, but for Ontario, I believe there is no specific 2+1 rule, so any combo of those 3 that you feel will give you the strongest overall impression should be suffice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattg Posted August 28, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 28, 2009 and having 2 that haven't known me for long won't hurt me, in your opinion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shannn Posted August 29, 2009 Report Share Posted August 29, 2009 and having 2 that haven't known me for long won't hurt me, in your opinion? I think it is more about how well the refs know you, not how long (but of course to a certain degree). Since you've known your refs for at least 3 months, it seems okay IMO In the end of the day, a great letter from someone who has known you for 3 months will always be better than a mediocre letter from someone who has known you for years (well, IMHO at least) Good luck, I think you'll be fine with whomever you select as a ref Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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