Why are YOU interested in going to the States? (for people going)

[Cyradis]

Yeah I just submitted a major major project and now I'm bored. So I made a poll! So to all of those going to the States (or who would go if they got in, if you didn't/are waiting to hear)...

 

I'm an American so going to the States is partly a matter of what feels like going home. Part of it is also just more opportunity and such though.

[justletmein]

not to rain on your parade, but there are only 2 reasons people go to the states:

 

1) A small percentage who can get into top tier schools, who apply to places like HMS, Hopkins etc.... they are looking for prestige, better opportunities etc.

 

2) MOST other people go to US because they did not get acceptances in Canada.

 

Face it... most people would not rack up 300K in debt if they had the choice. Wayne state, rosalind franklin etc are not exactly ivy leagues.

 

This poll would be more accurate if it said, "How will you answer this question when you interview in the US?"

[bannie22]

Education is better.

[ontariostudent]

Education is better.

 

Maybe I'm ignorant, but what qualifies US education as being "better"? I can maybe understand if you want to do residency or a fellowship (this is the part of medical training that really counts) at some special, world-renowned institution in the US, but I have a hard time believing that their undergraduate medical training is worth moving for. MAYBE in the top few schools, but definitely not in the country as a whole. The Canadian medical education system is known as one of the best in the world.

[Gitanjali]

Maybe I'm ignorant, but what qualifies US education as being "better"? I can maybe understand if you want to do residency or a fellowship (this is the part of medical training that really counts) at some special, world-renowned institution in the US, but I have a hard time believing that their undergraduate medical training is worth moving for. MAYBE in the top few schools, but definitely not in the country as a whole. The Canadian medical education system is known as one of the best in the world.

 

Quality of classroom instruction may be the same in Canada and US...but being in US, you can avail yourself of a much wider range of labs/projects to be invovled in through the year adn more imp. through the summer - even prospect of doing year out programs is more available in the states ...atleast thats the impression i have...all of which pads your resume better for residency applications...

I always say that Canadian education is qualitatively the same as US, but quantitatively, interms of varieties of opportunities, US might be better...my 2 cents

[Gitanjali]

Then again, if I had gotten into UFT or McGill MD program, I would have never gone to the US...

[ontariostudent]

Quality of classroom instruction may be the same in Canada and US...but being in US, you can avail yourself of a much wider range of labs/projects to be invovled in through the year adn more imp. through the summer - even prospect of doing year out programs is more available in the states ...atleast thats the impression i have...all of which pads your resume better for residency applications...

I always say that Canadian education is qualitatively the same as US, but quantitatively, interms of varieties of opportunities, US might be better...my 2 cents

 

Year out programs don't exist in Canada because we don't encourage "resume padding" here.

 

I can't exactly comment on everything you said because I do go to U of T and we have the excellent opportunities you mentioned, but my inkling is that U of T and McGill are far from the only 2 Canadian schools with good opportunities for med students. Perhaps current med students at some of the other schools can comment, but I've heard excellent things about most Canadian med programs, both in terms of classroom teaching as well as opportunities outside the classroom. If you're planning to go to the US without fully researching what is available to you in Canada, it's your loss. Moving to the US for personal reasons (eg. you are American and want to move back, or you have a newfound love for Obamacare and are dying to be part of it) would be entirely different.

[moo]

Maybe I'm ignorant, but what qualifies US education as being "better"? I can maybe understand if you want to do residency or a fellowship (this is the part of medical training that really counts) at some special, world-renowned institution in the US, but I have a hard time believing that their undergraduate medical training is worth moving for. MAYBE in the top few schools, but definitely not in the country as a whole. The Canadian medical education system is known as one of the best in the world.

 

I disagree. I've trained in both countries as a medical student in the US and now as a resident in two institutions in Canada. I've also done rotations at different US schools. In general, US medical education is more rigorous and demanding. In Canada, students are coddled too much. Expectations are higher in the US. My evals in the US were always "average". My evals in Canada suddenly were almost always "excellent-outstanding", even though I often do not think I deserve it.

 

Thing is, even the top 50 US med schools (by US News) offer way more opportunities and I think a superior educational experience than most med schools in Canada. The availability of research opportunities at schools and at government organizations like CDC, NIH, etc. are not considered "resume padders" as you allude to below. The rest of the schools offer probably an equivalent education to Canada, with the exception of perhaps DO schools, but apparently DO schools are good at churning out family docs, so they have an important place in the US medical education system. However, even at places like WSU, it is easier to do research at big name places during the summer or to take time off during med school to do research because it's encouraged.

 

Even now, as a resident, I am heading back to the US to do a research elective at UCSF. Even, my superiors have all recommended the US field epi program over the Canadian one. Canadian schools churn out competent physicians but to me, I have never regretted paying the tuition to get what I feel was a better educational experience in the US. In the long-run, the extra 120-150K I paid (actually less than that because I saved a ton in taxes due to all the tuition credits) is a drop in the bucket.

[ontariostudent]

I disagree. I've trained in both countries as a medical student in the US and now as a resident in two institutions in Canada. I've also done rotations at different US schools. In general, US medical education is more rigorous and demanding. In Canada, students are coddled too much. Expectations are higher in the US. My evals in the US were always "average". My evals in Canada suddenly were almost always "excellent-outstanding", even though I often do not think I deserve it.

 

Thing is, even the top 50 US med schools (by US News) offer way more opportunities and I think a superior educational experience than most med schools in Canada. The availability of research opportunities at schools and at government organizations like CDC, NIH, etc. are not considered "resume padders" as you allude to below. The rest of the schools offer probably an equivalent education to Canada, with the exception of perhaps DO schools, but apparently DO schools are good at churning out family docs, so they have an important place in the US medical education system. However, even at places like WSU, it is easier to do research at big name places during the summer or to take time off during med school to do research because it's encouraged.

 

Even now, as a resident, I am heading back to the US to do a research elective at UCSF. Even, my superiors have all recommended the US field epi program over the Canadian one. Canadian schools churn out competent physicians but to me, I have never regretted paying the tuition to get what I feel was a better educational experience in the US. In the long-run, the extra 120-150K I paid (actually less than that because I saved a ton in taxes due to all the tuition credits) is a drop in the bucket.

 

I can't argue with someone who has been in both systems, but I do think that the person I was responding to was a bit simplistic and could probably benefit from more research...

[bannie22]

I can't argue with someone who has been in both systems, but I do think that the person I was responding to was a bit simplistic and could probably benefit from more research...

 

Simplistic?

 

Perhaps just not as blindly patriotic as you.

 

As an international student, I (or we) have seen and experienced much more than the average student.

 

Canada's medical education is above average (in the world), but perhaps your expectations are lower. For me, its select schools in the US/UK as "best".

 

And all parts of your education COUNTS, not just your "residency".

 

"hard time believing their .....worth moving for"

 

The lack of desire to see more of the world is perhaps something you might want to correct!

 

 

 

Anyways, OP was just asking for opinions. And that was my opinion, whether you fancy it or not. It wasnt on the poll so I couldnt vote.

[mig174]

I have trouble seeing how a medical school affiliated with Princess Margaret, Sickkids, Mount Sinai, Toronto General and Toronto Western hospitals is inferior to the top 50 in the US. I mean, sure Harvard, Stanford, the select few at the top with 3-5 times the endowment that UofT has are of course better... but to say UofT = Emory doesn't make any sense to me.

 

I mean, yes you can say ontariostudent is being "patriotic", but you're also being quite defensive of your choice in the US or perhaps justifying your inability to not get into a canadian med school.

[onamountain]

I mean, yes you can say ontariostudent is being "patriotic", but you're also being quite defensive of your choice in the US or perhaps justifying your inability to not get into a canadian med school.

 

I wish I had an inability to not get into a Canadian med school!

[moo]

I have trouble seeing how a medical school affiliated with Princess Margaret, Sickkids, Mount Sinai, Toronto General and Toronto Western hospitals is inferior to the top 50 in the US. I mean, sure Harvard, Stanford, the select few at the top with 3-5 times the endowment that UofT has are of course better... but to say UofT = Emory doesn't make any sense to me.

 

I mean, yes you can say ontariostudent is being "patriotic", but you're also being quite defensive of your choice in the US or perhaps justifying your inability to not get into a canadian med school.

 

Yeah that's ONE school in Canada though. To say that Sask, Calgary, Manitoba, Dal, UWO, Queens, even McM and UBC are equivalent to UCLA, UCSF, Emory, Vandy, UPenn, Columbia is stretching it. ANd it is arguably more difficult to get into some of the US schools I've mentioned than some Ontario schools which allow you to "drop" your worst years.

 

I'm not blindly patriotic as I have experiences in Canada and the US, and pretty extensive at that. There are good schools in each country. McM for example, has an excellent EBM department. However, take it from me, sometimes people here are just as arrogant as Americans, if not worse. Reason is we've probably been told time and time again that Canadian schools are the world's best... but if you open your eyes there is a whole lot more out there.

[AdamP]

This is stupid.

 

Pre-clerkship doesn't mean ****all anyways, and everyone has to do their core rotations regardless so that's basically a wash, as for electives you can do some of those in the US so I can't see how that can make a difference.

 

And three things I just want to say

 

1) Most "rigorous" program doesn't automatically mean it produces the best doctors

2) UG meds is for learning the basics of medicine and developing as a professional, learning all this really specialized knowledge and researching with the best people is the place of residencies and mostly fellowships

3) who wants to spend four years learning how to bend over for insurance companies anyways?

 

O canada.

[ontariostudent]

This is stupid.

 

Pre-clerkship doesn't mean ****all anyways, and everyone has to do their core rotations regardless so that's basically a wash, as for electives you can do some of those in the US so I can't see how that can make a difference.

 

And three things I just want to say

 

1) Most "rigorous" program doesn't automatically mean it produces the best doctors

2) UG meds is for learning the basics of medicine and developing as a professional, learning all this really specialized knowledge and researching with the best people is the place of residencies and mostly fellowships

3) who wants to spend four years learning how to bend over for insurance companies anyways?

 

O canada.

 

+1

 

I think we can be friends.

[moo]

This is stupid.

 

Pre-clerkship doesn't mean ****all anyways, and everyone has to do their core rotations regardless so that's basically a wash, as for electives you can do some of those in the US so I can't see how that can make a difference.

 

And three things I just want to say

 

1) Most "rigorous" program doesn't automatically mean it produces the best doctors

2) UG meds is for learning the basics of medicine and developing as a professional, learning all this really specialized knowledge and researching with the best people is the place of residencies and mostly fellowships

3) who wants to spend four years learning how to bend over for insurance companies anyways?

 

O canada.

 

Thank you for your insight. It's quite obvious that you don't take well to others bashing Canada. I would implore you to show some respect to those who choose to study in the US as well.

 

No one is saying Canadian schools suck. I'm suggesting reasons why I decided to study in the US and why others have as well. No need to get emotional over it.

 

To me, the fact that Canadian med schools are "difficult" to get into does not equate to "better" education. (I put difficult in quotes as some find it way harder to get into US schools. Plus some Cdn schools allow you to drop your worst years) As you said, pre-clerkship doesn't matter, so those who study in the caribs and get their clinical training in the US should be just as good. Yet would you think a Carib MD is as good as a Canadian grad MD? Many of my CDN colleagues roll their eyes at Caribbean, Irish, even US grads. It's this kind of arrogance that I find disgusting. If an American did that about US schools, you'd be all over them.

[mystery_chick]

Thank you for your insight. It's quite obvious that you don't take well to others bashing Canada. I would implore you to show some respect to those who choose to study in the US as well.

 

No one is saying Canadian schools suck. I'm suggesting reasons why I decided to study in the US and why others have as well. No need to get emotional over it.

 

To me, the fact that Canadian med schools are "difficult" to get into does not equate to "better" education. (I put difficult in quotes as some find it way harder to get into US schools. Plus some Cdn schools allow you to drop your worst years) As you said, pre-clerkship doesn't matter, so those who study in the caribs and get their clinical training in the US should be just as good. Yet would you think a Carib MD is as good as a Canadian grad MD? Many of my CDN colleagues roll their eyes at Caribbean, Irish, even US grads. It's this kind of arrogance that I find disgusting. If an American did that about US schools, you'd be all over them.

 

+2

 

pre-clerkship may not matter but once you do get into 3rd and 4th year it does! I haven't seen that many US schools but at some schools you do get what you paid for. The extra bits of technology that US school can afford may not seem like much but it could make a difference if you take advantage of it. Also, as it's been mentioned already there are a lot of summer opportunities there. And it's not "resume padding" it's called improving your residency application which plenty of Canadian med students also do seeing as so many of them are involved with clubs and summer research as well!

[mig174]

Yeah that's ONE school in Canada though. To say that Sask, Calgary, Manitoba, Dal, UWO, Queens, even McM and UBC are equivalent to UCLA, UCSF, Emory, Vandy, UPenn, Columbia is stretching it. ANd it is arguably more difficult to get into some of the US schools I've mentioned than some Ontario schools which allow you to "drop" your worst years.

 

I'm not blindly patriotic as I have experiences in Canada and the US, and pretty extensive at that. There are good schools in each country. McM for example, has an excellent EBM department. However, take it from me, sometimes people here are just as arrogant as Americans, if not worse. Reason is we've probably been told time and time again that Canadian schools are the world's best... but if you open your eyes there is a whole lot more out there.

 

 

David Sackett is quite godly.

 

Of course the chances of getting into a top school like Harvard vs chances at getting into uoft are much smaller. The competition is insane because you're dealing with a country that has 10 times as many people as Canada.

 

However, I don't think "harder" is the right word to use here.

 

However, at least if we're talking about Ontario,

1) OMSAS is a harder scale than AMCAS

2) after dropping those grades, entering average for undergraduates is still ~3.93 for UofT.

3) US schools, especially private selective schools, look for more than just stats (in general, Duke is an exception). For many of those schools, the goal is to churn out a higher proportion of "leaders", those more likely to be involved with business/research/whatever generates money in med, which can mean potential alumni $$$. GPA says little about how competitive a person is, how much of a leader he is, etc. It's a whole different ballgame of what's considered "difficult" - probably what Harvard is looking for in their class is very different from what, say, Mac/UofT/UWO/Queen's are looking for in theirs. Don't believe me? http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2005/10/10/051010crat_atlarge (It's for undergrad, but the same philosophy applies to medical schools at most Ivies).

 

So I think to say it's harder is misrepresenting the issue. If you possess the right qualities, i.e. are a better "fit" for the school, your chances to get in are much higher than if it was completely random.

[JC5]

I really don't want to get into any argument here about the quality of education, but feel I can add something from experience.

 

 

I've interviewed at 12 schools this cycle; 4 Canadian and 8 American.

 

After looking back, even though to some there would be a clear difference in ranking between the 4 Canadian schools I interviewed at, I really couldn't tell them apart. They all seem about the same to me. There was a disparity in "ranking" but, despite this, I really didn't sense it. They all seemed to provide a good, solid education.

 

There was a disparity in "ranking" between the 8 American schools I interviewed at as well. The difference here, however, is that when I went to the American schools I could immediately tell which ones were better. Even in the States, there aren't any "bad" schools, but the good ones are very easy to pick out from the rest.

 

Take that for what it's worth.

[leviathan]

I think the requirement for a licensing exam before clerkship and to compete for a good residency is a factor for why the US programs are more rigorous. I have friends that say there are a lot of Canadian medical students who barely scrape through the first two years without learning much because they don't have any incentive. That said, there are always students who will study hard and learn lots regardless of any external pressure.

[Elchris]

http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2005/10/10/051010crat_atlarge

 

Interesting article and facts!

 

I chose option 1 myself not because I believe I'll get a better education here or in the US but because if I had a choice I would stay here where all my family and friends are. I love Canada but I love my goal of being a doctor even more.

Regarding the discussion about which system is better, if there is one thing I have learnt from my undergrad is that it is what you make of it and you need a school that is a good fit for you ... that is the best school, the one that motivates you to reach your fullest potential. Otherwise, Harvard or UofT ... not worth much if it isn't your kind of crowd and your learning ends up suffering because of it.

Anyways, just my 2 cents ...

[keith_015]

Just want to contribute. If I stay in Canada (if offered), quality of schools isn't the most important factor. For me, the US offers programs that Canada does not. Other than NOSM (sorta), is there a program in Canada that offers exclusive or almost exclusive internship in a true rural setting in Canada? I haven't heard of any! Rural med is an important part of medicine in both the US and Canada, yet Canadian schools haven't even come close to addressing this. Bravo US! If admitted in Canada, I will go (like I mention for factors other than quality) yet I will opt to travel to the US for some of my internship.

 

Name isn't everything. Do U of T applicants actually match any better than other schools across Canada? I think it can be the uniqueness of the US programs as well as the more sophisticated research programs that will lure people to accept US spots. Oh...don't want to forget that the US pumps in more money to stay up to date in technology and health care in general. Not sure how many Cdn schools will have a laproscopic simulator.

[justletmein]

Just want to contribute. If I stay in Canada (if offered), quality of schools isn't the most important factor. For me, the US offers programs that Canada does not. Other than NOSM (sorta), is there a program in Canada that offers exclusive or almost exclusive internship in a true rural setting in Canada? I haven't heard of any! Rural med is an important part of medicine in both the US and Canada, yet Canadian schools haven't even come close to addressing this. Bravo US!

 

Most of the Quebec schools offer a 2-year clerkship in a rural setting, if that is what you're into... I am sure there are other canadian schools offering similar programs.

 

Oh...don't want to forget that the US pumps in more money to stay up to date in technology and health care in general. Not sure how many Cdn schools will have a laproscopic simulator.

 

If canadians paid 40K a year to go to school, then yes, they would have a laproscopic simulator.

But I have news for you... as a med student, you wont get anywhere near that simulator. Save your money, get your degree in canada, then go to the US for residency if you need the technology so badly!

[keith_015]

Most of the Quebec schools offer a 2-year clerkship in a rural setting, if that is what you're into... I am sure there are other canadian schools offering similar programs.

 

Oh yeah...I haven't spoken working French since 2001, and I'm not a PQ resident so count me out.

 

Edit: If you will counter w/ McGill, yes, it would be a good choice (if you are a Quebec resident). I loved living there for the one term I spent at McGill for UG, but your chances are impossibly small (worse than US residents probs).

 

If canadians paid 40K a year to go to school, then yes, they would have a laproscopic simulator.

But I have news for you... as a med student, you wont get anywhere near that simulator. Save your money, get your degree in canada, then go to the US for residency if you need the technology so badly!

 

Breaking news flash for you Chucky: Kentucky has it in their medical training facility for MD students, not residents. Time for Canada to get with the future (re: Danny Williams).

 

Edit: It was in the facility for 1st and 2nd years away from the hospital just FYI.

 

Damn...I can't believe I've been more bitter on PM101 lately.

[mystery_chick]

Breaking news flash for you Chucky: Kentucky has it in their medical training facility for MD students, not residents. Time for Canada to get with the future (re: Danny Williams).

 

Edit: It was in the facility for 1st and 2nd years away from the hospital just FYI.

 

Damn...I can't believe I've been more bitter on PM101 lately.

 

Same with Vandy, simulators for first and second years before doing the actual thing in clerkship