white queens

[UTPEOPLE]

This happened nearly 100 yrs ago to non-nationals who were adults at the time. They were all men as well. They would all be >113 today - I think there are only a handful of men in the world that age alive right now - if even any. No one from that era directly affected by this is still alive. The students got to graduate from larger medical schools in cities with larger black populations - wouldn't be surprised if deep down they actually thought it a blessing.

 

It was indeed terrible and disgusting. But pre 1967 - Canada followed what was then a clear world mindset - whites=best. But what do you want today's whites to do about it? Keep groveling for forgiveness?

 

So true... look at how long it took for Canada to apologize about that stupid asian headtax? Nothing changed after the apology, right? No compensation or anything... An apology is pointless... I say, put the money where the mouth is and give asians preferential entrance into med school... Hows that for an apology?

[future_doc]

won't happen though..........

[123coco]

This happened nearly 100 yrs ago to non-nationals who were adults at the time. They were all men as well. They would all be >113 today - I think there are only a handful of men in the world that age alive right now - if even any. No one from that era directly affected by this is still alive. The students got to graduate from larger medical schools in cities with larger black populations - wouldn't be surprised if deep down they actually thought it a blessing.

 

It was indeed terrible and disgusting. But pre 1967 - Canada followed what was then a clear world mindset - whites=best. But what do you want today's whites to do about it? Keep groveling for forgiveness?

 

sfinch so are you saying that because of one's sex or citizenship status it's ok to discriminate against an individual? Furthermore, if Queens had a law that systemically barred blacks from matriculating into medical school then it does affect all of those who were rejected on the basis of their race (so people up until 1949 if not longer were still being affected by this law...really not so long ago). As a visible minority yourself, I do not think you'd be grinning if you were denied admission to Western med because of your race.

 

Cheers!

________

Silversurfer reviews

[UTPEOPLE]

U could put it in your U of T essay. Imagine:

 

I'm asian. Canada was mean to our ethnicity before. Gimmee...

 

Sounds ridiculous, but it does happen to a very small degree with other ethnicities

 

I have always been astounded at how med schools can offer preferential treatment to identifiable groups (even through affirmitive action). Why should med schools (in the states at least) give you an easier time if your skin is darker than others, or if your great-grandfather used to live on a reservation? we should be judged on solely our own merits.

[onamountain]

U could put it in your U of T essay. Imagine:

 

I'm asian. Canada was mean to our ethnicity before. Gimmee...

 

Sounds ridiculous, but it does happen to a very small degree with other ethnicities

 

I have always been astounded at how med schools can offer preferential treatment to identifiable groups (even through affirmitive action). Why should med schools (in the states at least) give you an easier time if your skin is darker than others, or if your great-grandfather used to live on a reservation? we should be judged on solely our own merits.

 

I think affirmative action for aboriginal applications is justified. Aboriginal health is in a very sorry state, and reservations are hugely underserved -saving seats for aboriginal applicants is similar to how NOSM reserves seats for those who are likely to end up serving rural areas.

[DOC_Ma]

So true... look at how long it took for Canada to apologize about that stupid asian headtax? Nothing changed after the apology, right? No compensation or anything... An apology is pointless... I say, put the money where the mouth is and give asians preferential entrance into med school... Hows that for an apology?

 

Thats more like racism again. However I believe the headtax was only on the Chinese not all Asians btw.

[DOC_Ma]

I think affirmative action for aboriginal applications is justified. Aboriginal health is in a very sorry state, and reservations are hugely underserved -saving seats for aboriginal applicants is similar to how NOSM reserves seats for those who are likely to end up serving rural areas.

 

I agree that there's something that needs to be done to improve the health of the aboriginals. However, what is the actual correlation of one being aboriginal and graduate from medschool then actually practice on the reserves? I don't know the stats so I can't conclude. However if the correlation is high then I think the action of reserving seats for the aboriginals is justified but if the correlation is low, then their policy is based on false assumption.

[future_doc]

Well, the aboriginals have been downtrodden for more than a century by their conquerors and this is but small payment that does not begin to redress the injuries done to them. So, I feel that they deserve sny preference given regarldess of where they practice.

 

And the power structure takes from one hand more than they give with th eother. At this time, there is a class action suit on behalf of aboriginal chlildren who are treated in a discriminatory fashion viz a vi the majoirty b efore the Human Righte Commission; and the government is playing political games within a judicial matter to delay the hearing while nothing is being done to remedy the sad situation.

[Nobodycirclesthewagons]

U could put it in your U of T essay. Imagine:

 

I'm asian. Canada was mean to our ethnicity before. Gimmee...

 

Sounds ridiculous, but it does happen to a very small degree with other ethnicities

 

I have always been astounded at how med schools can offer preferential treatment to identifiable groups (even through affirmitive action). Why should med schools (in the states at least) give you an easier time if your skin is darker than others, or if your great-grandfather used to live on a reservation? we should be judged on solely our own merits.

 

The thinking is that the effects of the racism against those groups are still felt today. They definitely are.

 

Imagine a 4x100 relay with 4 teams, teams A, B, C, and D. Let's just say the first two members of team A and team B are forced to push a football blocking sled for their 100m, but the final two members of each of those teams gets to run freely. Although the final two members of team A and team B run the race just like the members of team C and team D, without any restrictions, team A and team B still feel the effects of the differential treatment given to their predecessors; They start their legs of the race far behind their counterparts because of events in the 1st and 2nd legs of the race.

[123coco]

I think NOSM's mandate was built on the research findings that people who come from a community are more likely to return and practice in their original community. From what I understand outsiders rarely last on reserves. In light of this, I'm all for affirmative action for aboriginal people. Their health status in Canada is deplorable.

 

Furthermore, Canada has a responsibility to produce doctors who are reflective of the cultural mosaic of the population. At the end of the day, some ethnic/religious individuals prefer to be treated by their own. If they can't locate a physician from their own community, they are more likely to postpone getting medical attention until the issue is severe. This may be one reason why adcom tries to promote cultural diversity.

________

Fidelity bond advice

[future_doc]

The thinking is that the effects of the racism against those groups are still felt today. They definitely are.

 

Imagine a 4x100 relay with 4 teams, teams A, B, C, and D. Let's just say the first two members of team A and team B are forced to push a football blocking sled for their 100m, but the final two members of each of those teams gets to run freely. Although the final two members of team A and team B run the race just like the members of team C and team D, without any restrictions, team A and team B still feel the effects of the differential treatment given to their predecessors; They start their legs of the race far behind their counterparts because of events in the 1st and 2nd legs of the race.

 

If Nobodycriclesthewagons, you do exceedingly well - I agree with your ^ comment.

[future_doc]

I'm all for affirmative action for aboriginal people. Their health status in Canada is deplorable.

Furthermore, Canada has a responsibility to produce doctors who are reflective of the cultural mosaic of the population. At the end of the day, some ethnic/religious individuals prefer to be treated by their own. If they can't locate a physician from their own community, they are more likely to postpone getting medical attention until the issue is severe. This may be one reason why adcom tries to promote cultural diversity.

 

I agree with you.

[Nobodycirclesthewagons]

If Nobodycriclesthewagons, you do exceedingly well - I agree with your ^ comment.

 

LOL, thanks, f_d.

[Microbiodude]

The thinking is that the effects of the racism against those groups are still felt today. They definitely are.

 

Imagine a 4x100 relay with 4 teams, teams A, B, C, and D. Let's just say the first two members of team A and team B are forced to push a football blocking sled for their 100m, but the final two members of each of those teams gets to run freely. Although the final two members of team A and team B run the race just like the members of team C and team D, without any restrictions, team A and team B still feel the effects of the differential treatment given to their predecessors; They start their legs of the race far behind their counterparts because of events in the 1st and 2nd legs of the race.

 

This is a very nice analogy.

[The Law]

This again? Honestly people... get over it. I truly cannot fathom why we're stirring up a debate based on race, and I really don't know how anyone could seriously consider that any of the Canadian schools have racism-tainted admissions processes.

[Cnussey]

No no no no no no!!

 

The term is URM (under represented in medicine) for a reason. It is to select individuals whose ethnic background is such that the patient:physician ratio for that specific ethnic background is low. That way patients with a specific background are well represented. The merit in this lies in the fact that a patient can take solace in the possibility of having a doctor with background. I don't want to get into how the experience of illness changes will culture, but it is important!

 

Exactly!

 

And affirmative action actually works to help smooth out the problems that were and are evident--as long as the government cuts it off at the appropriate time.

[Cnussey]

This again? Honestly people... get over it. I turly cannot fathom why we're stirring up a debate based on race, and I really don't know how anyone could seriously consider that any of the Canadian schools have racism-tainted admissions processes.

 

Yeah, I'm still shocked at the idea too. I mean, of course it's possible, but...really? They'd get their butts tanned pretty quick if it were true and someone spoke up.

[123coco]

Exactly!

 

And affirmative action actually works to help smooth out the problems that were and are evident--as long as the government cuts it off at the appropriate time.

 

 

A lot of people will try to play the time card: it happened such a long time ago, get over it! Or why should I have to be penalized for something my ancestors did! But in reality we'll know we're all equal when statistics say so. Until the stats indicate that Aboriginals are doing as well the wrest of the Canadian population, affirmative action is still necessary.

 

My perspective at least.

 

UTPEOPLE, if you're genuinely interested in becoming a well rounded physician, UofT actually has an excellent course regarding aboriginal health in Canada. I believe it's at the 4th year level (no hard pre-req), and it's being offered by the pharmacy and some other department.

________

Weed Vaporizers

[UTPEOPLE]

The problem is that while I do recognize that aboriginal health is deplorable, there is ZERO guaruntee that an aboriginal physician will prefer to go back to their community and work there. If they dont go back, what will be the point of the affirmative action in the first place?

 

Also my previous post about the head tax thing (I am chinese by the way) was just an ironic way of showing that people should be judged on their own merit, based on the abilities that they themselves have demonstrated, and not based on the hardships of their ancestors (Chinese head tax, racism...etc) and not based on future plans that the applicant may or may not follow through with(aboriginal health, rural health, I promise to donate half my earnings if you let me become a doctor. Cross my heart). I would not try to promote aboriginal and rural health by waving the affirmative action carrot in front of greedy premeds, I would promote incentives for practicing physicians

[Dongzhuo]

Affirmative action is really ethically shaky. I mean I understand that some minorities are underrepresented in medicine and we need more of certain races in medicine. But how is it fair to the people who are in overrepresented races who work their behinds off to get into medicine? If affirmative action is practiced, there's no two ways about this: Some candidates who were better in every measurable aspect (grades, EC's, letters, interview) had to be passed over for another person who was not as good as the guy from an overrepresented race.

[UTPEOPLE]

The thinking is that the effects of the racism against those groups are still felt today. They definitely are.

 

Imagine a 4x100 relay with 4 teams, teams A, B, C, and D. Let's just say the first two members of team A and team B are forced to push a football blocking sled for their 100m, but the final two members of each of those teams gets to run freely. Although the final two members of team A and team B run the race just like the members of team C and team D, without any restrictions, team A and team B still feel the effects of the differential treatment given to their predecessors; They start their legs of the race far behind their counterparts because of events in the 1st and 2nd legs of the race.

 

First off, many of these people who end up claiming benefits in this day and age are likely immigrants who are likely not the descendants of the ones to which this injustice was done. For example, in the building of the CPR, 600 chinese died and countless others maimed. As someone of chinese descent but no direct relation to these people, should I to be compensated for the harsh treatments that they went through? The answer, should be a resounding NO!

 

By the way, circlesthewagons, because of the racial slurs and sterotypes associated with asians, I would argue that some may view asians very negatively as somewhat second-class citizens, akin to the old sterotypes associated with the Jewish (incredibly smart but sometime stingy and unethical). Yet, as a group, we dont expect any special accommodation and would prefer to reach for the future under our own merit.

 

what I dont understand is why instead of affirmative action through selecting more aboriginal applicant, we simply have a few medical school seats designated for aboriginal/rural health. After all, if the goal is better aboriginal/rural health, isnt it pointless have URM in med school that dont end up actually servicing the people and areas that they were let in for in the first place? If the med school awards this seat to you preferentially because of a percieved likelihood of practicing on reservations/rural areas, you better well be willing to put your money where your mouth is and sign a 40 year, legally binding contract to work on reservations/rural areas. There would be no reason not to, since these individuals would be naturally returning anyway, right.

 

Finally, there is a distinctive difference between affirmative action to address a current need, rather than affirmative action to try and right a past wrong. The former can be justified, given that the affirmative action actually addresses the need, while the latter is simply silly. Perhaps it is my personal experiences coloring my perspective, but when I used to work for an electronics store, I am tired of people playing the race card to get out of trouble when caught shoplifting. Just as the law should be applied consistently, so should med school requirements..

 

 

also... debating with you guys is fun! everyone has such interesting opinions!

[123coco]

ok well let me break it down for you. And if you still refuse to accept the relationship well that's on you buddy! Sorry if this echoes what has been posted

 

" A workforce that mirrors the demographic face of Canada is not only an expression of equity, but should also improve the quality of health care in underserserved communities. Research shows that when underserved populations are treated by a physician from a similar background, they are more likely to seek care and comply with physician directives, and more responsive to health promotion advice

 

The research also reveal that physician from under-represented groups (e.g Aboriginal doctors) are more likely to treat patients who are disadvantaged, chronically ill, or who suffer from more than one illness-patient characteristics that are frequently found in Aboriginal and rural communities. In addition, under-represented minorities return to their home communities to practice. In on study, 94% of Inuit-health care students planned to return to the North after graduating. Similarly, rural medicine students are twice as likely to express the desire to work in rural regions compared to their urban peers."

 

http://www.ccl-cca.ca/pdfs/LessonsInLearning/37-04_17_08E.pdf

 

I'm sure once the Inuit- health care students finish their studies less of them will actually follow through with their intentions, however; even if 1/3 of them do, that can still be considered as a success.

________

VAPORIZER AFFILIATES

[UTPEOPLE]

 

I'm sure once the Inuit- health care students finish their studies less of them will actually follow through with their intentions, however; even if 1/3 of them do, that can still be considered as a success.

 

Then wouldnt have the 2/3 of seats that were given to these students to promote greater Inuit healthcare have been wasted because more qualified people were passed over? If the policy demanded a return of service contract, wouldnt this problem be avoided and 100% of the seats intended to improve inuit health actually do so?

 

If people who get into med school over others because of an intent to address underrepresented needs, there better be consequences if you go back on that intent once you actually are in med school. That's like enjoying a service and then not paying for it, or promising a waiter that if I get really exceptional service, I will tip him handsomely, then not doing so, because TECHNICALLY, there is no law compelling me to tip.

[future_doc]

the Jewish (incredibly smart but sometime stingy and unethical)

 

Henry Ford propogated this kind of sick stuff. Every group has criminals, prostitutes, unethical people and this crosses all ethnicities, races, religions. So what else is new? You are victim to an unhealthy attitude and views that you absorbed from anti-semite that you are unconsciously spreading in this thread. Please let's all play together nicely and speak respectfully about each other!

 

Peace, we are all one.

[123coco]

First off, many of these people who end up claiming benefits in this day and age are likely immigrants who are likely not the descendants of the ones to which this injustice was done.

 

How so? Aboriginal people have to get approval from their band leader indicating that they are indeed a band member. The only other group that I'm aware of who is eligible for A.A are blacks in nova scotia who were here before Canada was Canada. (but I don't know if it applies to med school)

 

no I'm not picking on you UTPEOPLE...just your way of thinking evokes a response.

________

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