No More Provisional Acceptance

[ChicoMaki]

Also, consider in the past that UT and Mac have had similar interview pools (given the importance of GPA pre-interview) but now, IMO, look for Mac and UWO to have similar pools so there could be more movement there (also, don't forget UWO has windsor campus, so some may elect to reject if that's the care). However, I agree with the posts above: looking at previous years; trends will be of little value this year.

 

End of Provisional Acceptance = TSN Turning Point for interviewed applicants

[orange123]

Before you could decide say on May 15th to accept an offer from school X but also add a condition to it - that if later you are accepted at school Y (get off their waitlist) you will automatically accept the acceptance at Y, and get removed from school X's enrollement.

 

This process would slow things done considerably as waitlists wouldn't move as fast, and schools had to coordinate a bit.

 

Not so much on the new system - now it appears if you accept school X, then that is it - you are going to X and your are off of all other ontario waitlists.

 

Hope that helps!

 

Aaah.. thanks this does help Thanks for asking for an explanation lovestruck. I was trying to figure it out too.

[The Law]

Tell that to the people that get off the wait list less than a month before classes start. Moving (potentially across the country) in less then a month, settling in and starting a big part of your life is very stressful.

 

It saddens me that people are here arguing stupid details and outright failing to acknowledge how big of a thing this is for 20%+ of students at nearly every school across the country.

 

Oh no doubt, but so is deciding where to go. Does two weeks really make that much more of a difference? This is a huge commitment, and wouldn't you want to at least have a shot to get into one of your more favoured schools? Every year I notice a few people who switch after getting in off the waitlist. I know how torturous it is to be on waitlist, I had to experience that a couple years ago. I think our admissions committees need to give us more options and more information, rather than limiting the flexibility we have in the process.

 

 

In my opinion:

1) We should be told our waitlist number. It's just cruel that we're not. The only reason I think schools don't reveal this information is to avoid the appearance that people don't want to go there.

 

2) Provisional acceptances should still be around. It's just 2 weeks and will make an impact on a few peoples' lives. It's not like people are holding on their offers for months!

[onamountain]

1) We should be told our waitlist number. It's just cruel that we're not. The only reason I think schools don't reveal this information is to avoid the appearance that people don't want to go there.

 

I agree with this so hard

[orange123]

So i'm pretty sure I'm going to get three waitlists may 13th, then get off one of them by the end of the summer, probably mid-June.

 

I should have never told anyone May 13th was the day, because everyone is going to be asking me then and my answer will still be I don't know.

 

Oh le shyte. I never even thought about that. Here's hoping there's some good news on May 13th then.

[runningdoc]

I agree with this so hard

 

Well not just that, it would be another administrative hurdle to overcome. I'm in favour of it but for the Med Schools to build a system to allow students to know where they rank that is updated consistently enough to appease us wouldn't be as easy as we declare it.

 

Someone has to build the database. Someone has to maintain the database. Someone has to field the questions about why they were placed X on the wait-list. Someone has to field questions about waitlist movement (how much will there be...why isn't it updated yet, etc.)

 

It also weakens the secrecy of the medical school admission process. If we take my "random" pool of applicants:

 

Applicant #1: 3.97 cumulative GPA. 36 MCAT

Applicant #2: 4.00 cumulative GPA. 30 MCAT

Applicant #3: 3.75 cumulative GPA. 30 MCAT

Applicant #4: 3.75 cumulative GPA 38 MCAT

Applicant #5: 4.00 cumulative GPA 40 MCAT

 

Applicant #5 would be a shoe-in to get in providing they had an acceptable interview. However if they appear fairly low on a wait-list, people will know that the interview means more than the other application process stuff. It wouldn't completely reveal the post-interview assessment process, but it certainly would be a move toward a clearer picture and the Med Schools really wouldn't want that. It isn't simply a case of them being mean to the waitlisted folks because they can.

[med88]

I understand why you think Torontoand Ottawa will have their respective changes in waitlist movement this year, but what is your reasoning for your predictions for the other schools? Just curious.

 

Can someone kindly explain why Ottawa would have less waitlist movement?

[runningdoc]

Oh no doubt, but so is deciding where to go. Does two weeks really make that much more of a difference? This is a huge commitment, and wouldn't you want to at least have a shot to get into one of your more favoured schools? Every year I notice a few people who switch after getting in off the waitlist. I know how torturous it is to be on waitlist, I had to experience that a couple years ago. I think our admissions committees need to give us more options and more information, rather than limiting the flexibility we have in the process.

 

 

In my opinion:

1) We should be told our waitlist number. It's just cruel that we're not. The only reason I think schools don't reveal this information is to avoid the appearance that people don't want to go there.

 

2) Provisional acceptances should still be around. It's just 2 weeks and will make an impact on a few peoples' lives. It's not like people are holding on their offers for months!

 

I'm wondering if an "OUAC" system of Early Acceptance would solve a lot of problems.

 

Give people their offers at a set time: May 13

Give them 2 weeks to confirm any offers tentatively

Wait 3-4 days to allow processing times and then offer out a second round of offers at that point. Firm up the offers on this round of releases (say another week to 2 weeks)

 

May 13 - May 27th - Round 1 offers

June 1 - June 14th - Round 2 offers

June 17th - Remaining conditional offers go out

 

I think my other issue with the "no provisional acceptance" system is it seems to potentially punish people who get an offer in favour of people who are strictly waitlisted.

 

I certainly don't want to be the individual who doesn't get in this year because of my own modifications but without knowing my waitlist position

 

I get an offer from McMaster and waitlisted at UWO. I really want UWO but I don't want to take the risk of being too low on the waiting list so I accept McMaster. It turns out that I was "#5" on the UWO waiting list. Now someone who was #55 on the waiting list potentially gets in after all of the waitlist movement. I don't want to begrudge the #55 on the waiting list candidate but that person is pretty far down the list relative to the person who was "forced" to take the McMaster offer. Is that really the kind of system that should be employed?

[supafield]

Can someone kindly explain why Ottawa would have less waitlist movement?

 

I'm pretty sure the idea is most applicants don't have Ottawa as a number one choice, so in the past people would provisionally accept Ottawa, and a proportion of those people would get into their first choice school, opening up another spot at Ottawa.

 

This year, those same people wouldn't have the luxury of waiting and would have to immediately accept the Ottawa spot reducing the actual movement.

 

However, this is an assumption based off theoretical rankings in the premed101 realm. It's hard to tell if people actually consistently rank certain schools low... and even if this is the case, it's very tough to tell the extent to which it is true.

 

Ottawa has an incredible curriculum, loaded with flexibility for their med students while still providing enough structure that you're not learning medicine on your own. It's a good mix of lecture and small group learning. The clerkship is structured pretty well too. If curriculum and the way you're going to learn is a big factor for you, Ottawa is a great medical school.

[Nobodycirclesthewagons]

Can someone kindly explain why Ottawa would have less waitlist movement?

 

I was thinking that Ottawa is one of the "less popular" schools, but I don't know if that is actually the case. supafield hit the nail on the head.

[Cnussey]

I'm wondering if an "OUAC" system of Early Acceptance would solve a lot of problems.

 

Give people their offers at a set time: May 13

Give them 2 weeks to confirm any offers tentatively

Wait 3-4 days to allow processing times and then offer out a second round of offers at that point. Firm up the offers on this round of releases (say another week to 2 weeks)

 

May 13 - May 27th - Round 1 offers

June 1 - June 14th - Round 2 offers

June 17th - Remaining conditional offers go out

 

I think my other issue with the "no provisional acceptance" system is it seems to potentially punish people who get an offer in favour of people who are strictly waitlisted.

 

I certainly don't want to be the individual who doesn't get in this year because of my own modifications but without knowing my waitlist position

 

I get an offer from McMaster and waitlisted at UWO. I really want UWO but I don't want to take the risk of being too low on the waiting list so I accept McMaster. It turns out that I was "#5" on the UWO waiting list. Now someone who was #55 on the waiting list potentially gets in after all of the waitlist movement. I don't want to begrudge the #55 on the waiting list candidate but that person is pretty far down the list relative to the person who was "forced" to take the McMaster offer. Is that really the kind of system that should be employed?

 

Not to mention the poor person on the MAC waitlist waiting for you to move to the UWO list!

[supafield]

Trying to appreciate the reasons this is a better system for the schools.... the one minor quarrel I have is that there seems to be no applicant contribution to any decisions made. Applicants, both successful and rejected, are a big part of the process.

 

It seems like a quick likert scale survey attached to OMSAS at the time of application would at least allow applicants to voice themselves and establish a majority opinion. Medical schools certainly wouldn't be bound to follow any opinions, but perhaps if they saw 80% of applicants opposed a certain change in the system or supported it for that matter, they could at least consider it.

 

Even the AAMC, includes a survey following the MCAT.

[Call_Me_Konrad]

We already have a proven "no provisional acceptances" "no waiting lists" system: CARMS

 

The key to its algorithms

- ranking lists of schools by applicants

- ranking lists of applicants by admissions

 

Getting the medical schools to agree on its use and on a common admissions match day - possible but not likely.

[supafield]

CaRMS has a spot for every Canadian educated student taking part.

 

With OMSAS applicants outnumbering spots 5:1 or greater... a system where you could potentially get rejected from medical school altogether because you ranked the wrong one high would stink.

[estairella]

We already have a proven "no provisional acceptances" "no waiting lists" system: CARMS

 

The key to its algorithms

- ranking lists of schools by applicants

- ranking lists of applicants by admissions

 

Getting the medical schools to agree on its use and on a common admissions match day - possible but not likely.

 

Thanks Konrad, I was thinking of posting the exact same thing. Do you know what happens when you don't immediately get matched in the first round (even if you did 12 interviews - one at nearly every school)? You're unmatched.

 

Do you know what happens if you don't match in the second round (on average, less desirable specialties in less desirable schools)... you're unmatched for the rest of the year (and based on CaRMS statistics, possibly for life).

 

Let's imagine what that would look like in medical school admission terms:

 

Bobby wants to stay in south-central Ontario because his fiance has a lucrative career doing real estate in the region... and he wants to stay in a relatively fair-sized city, and applies to the main campuses of Queens, Ottawa, Mac, Western and UofT. Unfortunately Bobby is not given an immediate offer at any of those schools on May 15.

 

On May 30, Bobby gets to choose from the second round. There is only one spot in Ontario still available, at a satellite campus in Mac. Bobby REALLY does not want to be at a satellite campus in a small town, but he and his fiance prefer to stay in Ontario if possible - after all, they can just move out once residency is over! Unfortunately, a quick telephone interview does not go over so well, as the Mac admissions officials can tell Bobby isn't interested in staying in a rural setting.

 

Bobby is now a little frightened. Leftover spots are filling up quickly left and right - everyone he has called seems to have just filled their spot within the last hour. Finally, he snags a call with the Northern campus of UBC. Hardly his first choice and in fact likely his last choice, but he knows that the future match rates for those who are unmatched for an entire year are dismal. His interview goes well and he immediately accepts the offer. Unfortunately, he has not yet told his fiance this devastating news - he has in some way basically chosen his career over his relationship; and now he faces the daunting task of convincing her to choose him over her career.

 

/just a lil reality check for you all

[estairella]

CaRMS has a spot for every Canadian educated student taking part.

 

With OMSAS applicants outnumbering spots 5:1 or greater... a system where you could potentially get rejected from medical school altogether because you ranked the wrong one high would stink.

 

Sorry, that's not how the CaRMS ranking system works. The only way to be rejected from a medical school (that wants you) is to not rank it at all. In fact, we're always warned of the opposite "DO NOT RANK A SCHOOL YOU WOULD NOT BE HAPPY AT"... because you know what, that school you ranked last will still give you an offer if that's how it plays out.

 

(And CaRMS doesn't give multiple offers. If you get an offer, it's contractually binding).

[supafield]

Sorry, that's not how the CaRMS ranking system works. The only way to be rejected from a medical school (that wants you) is to not rank it at all. In fact, we're always warned of the opposite "DO NOT RANK A SCHOOL YOU WOULD NOT BE HAPPY AT"... because you know what, that school you ranked last will still give you an offer if that's how it plays out.

 

(And CaRMS doesn't give multiple offers. If you get an offer, it's contractually binding).

 

Can't a program rank more applicants in CaRMS than spots they have. Say for a highly coveted derm spot they rank one applicant #1 and another #2... both applicants rank the derm program #1 so the spot goes to the applicant that the program ranked higher and the #2 applicant is out of luck?

 

Wouldn't it change if the applicants heavily outweighed the number of spots available? Now every single spot available is equivalent to a highly coveted residency position.

 

It's based on an algorithm that considers both the applicant's ranking of the program and the program's ranking of the applicant.

 

Schools would likely rank many more applicants than they actually need in order to try to fill as many spots as possible in the first match.... So perhaps a scenario now exists where an applicant on the fringe @ school A gets bumped up and gets accepted because they ranked school A number 1.

 

A second applicant is also on the fringe at school A but ranks it low. The schools the second applicant does rank high don't offer him/her a spot and because they ranked school A poorly, they fall outside of the school's total seats available and thus are rejected all together.

 

Perhaps I have a misguided understanding of CaRMS.

[estairella]

Student preference is considered over school preference - the school will rank every applicant except ones they would absolutely refuse.

 

For the scenario you describe to occur, for the schools the applicant ranked high to not accept him implies that he was rejected altogether.

 

Remember, even if the ratio is 5:1.. there are 15 or so medical schools (and yes in CaRMS most people will try to get 10-12 interviews) so on average, there are not enough people ranking a school first for them to fill the entire school.

 

So yes, an applicant that ranked schools high where he was outright rejected, and ranked a school low where he was "on the fringe" does not get anything. I'm not sure I see a problem with that... he/she sounds like the kind of applicant I wouldn't want becoming a doctor.

 

(The fact is, the total number of spots and total number of acceptances stays the same. If you are implying that person deserves an acceptance, you're simply saying someone else deserves to be rejected. So honestly, I don't feel a strongly that this would be a problem).

[onamountain]

Well not just that, it would be another administrative hurdle to overcome. I'm in favour of it but for the Med Schools to build a system to allow students to know where they rank that is updated consistently enough to appease us wouldn't be as easy as we declare it.

 

Someone has to build the database. Someone has to maintain the database. Someone has to field the questions about why they were placed X on the wait-list. Someone has to field questions about waitlist movement (how much will there be...why isn't it updated yet, etc.)

 

It also weakens the secrecy of the medical school admission process. If we take my "random" pool of applicants:

 

Applicant #1: 3.97 cumulative GPA. 36 MCAT

Applicant #2: 4.00 cumulative GPA. 30 MCAT

Applicant #3: 3.75 cumulative GPA. 30 MCAT

Applicant #4: 3.75 cumulative GPA 38 MCAT

Applicant #5: 4.00 cumulative GPA 40 MCAT

 

Applicant #5 would be a shoe-in to get in providing they had an acceptable interview. However if they appear fairly low on a wait-list, people will know that the interview means more than the other application process stuff. It wouldn't completely reveal the post-interview assessment process, but it certainly would be a move toward a clearer picture and the Med Schools really wouldn't want that. It isn't simply a case of them being mean to the waitlisted folks because they can.

 

But they wouldn't even need to do all that. If they could just tell us what number we're initially at on the waitlist, that would make the waiting so much easier. The maritime schools already do this, and it seems to work alright for them.

[infomeddude]

This system is so damn crazy.

 

Waitlist movement is a now a function of people with MULTIPLE acceptances. That is the ONLY way the wait list will move... and honestly, how many people get accepted to MULTIPLE(2 or more) schools these days????

 

School invites 500 people to an interview

 

They plan on accepting 160.

 

Of the 160, I am going to say a REALLY small fraction will get an acceptance at another school too. Probably 10%. That is 16 people. We also have to assess whether that other school is their first choice. Lets assume 50% of the 10% that have a multiple acceptance want the other school. Wait list movement = 8 PEOPLE

 

 

EDIT: I realize that the actual # of people who get multi acceptances may be considerably higher than 10%, but that doesnt take away from the point that the waistlist movement will be extremly small this year.

 

EDIT 2: The explanation above assumes the following: Applicant wants schools A. On May 15, Applicant gets accepted to School B, C, but waitlisted at A. Applicant will never consider rejecting offers to B,C, and to wait and hope that he gets off the waitlist at School A. (This is obviously the logical approach, but I hope there are stupid people out there that will will consider the alternative.. )

[supafield]

^ Haha the AFMC document shows waitlists moving 50-100+ spots for certain schools certain years.

 

Queen's with a class of 100 has had to make over 200 offers (maybe not 200 offers, but they got past position 200 on their initial rank list) at times to fill the class.... your numbers are a little off here.

[infomeddude]

^ Haha the AFMC document shows waitlists moving 50-100+ spots for certain schools certain years.

 

Queen's with a class of 100 has had to make over 200 offers at times to fill the class.... your numbers are a little off here.

 

I don't understand your point. These are numbers from the old system.

[supafield]

I don't understand your point. These are numbers from the old system.

 

Total waitlist movement won't be any different this year than last year.

It'll just happen in a different way.

 

edit: It may be a little less at some schools, but that'll just mean it's a little more at others.

[oldnewbie]

There probably will be little change in total waitlist movement. Just much more of the waitlist movement will take place in the 2nd round.

 

In both the new system and old sytem the same applicants (approx. 850 to 900 applicants in Ont.) will be admitted. Just because some successful applicants will have to make a firm decision on the first round doesn't change the actual 850 to 900 that are admitted.

[Nobodycirclesthewagons]

This system is so damn crazy.

 

Waitlist movement is a now a function of people with MULTIPLE acceptances. That is the ONLY way the wait list will move... and honestly, how many people get accepted to MULTIPLE(2 or more) schools these days????

 

School invites 500 people to an interview

 

They plan on accepting 160.

 

Of the 160, I am going to say a REALLY small fraction will get an acceptance at another school too. Probably 10%. That is 16 people. We also have to assess whether that other school is their first choice. Lets assume 50% of the 10% that have a multiple acceptance want the other school. Wait list movement = 8 PEOPLE

 

 

EDIT: I realize that the actual # of people who get multi acceptances may be considerably higher than 10%, but that doesnt take away from the point that the waistlist movement will be extremly small this year.

 

EDIT 2: The explanation above assumes the following: Applicant wants schools A. On May 15, Applicant gets accepted to School B, C, but waitlisted at A. Applicant will never consider rejecting offers to B,C, and to wait and hope that he gets off the waitlist at School A. (This is obviously the logical approach, but I hope there are stupid people out there that will will consider the alternative.. )

 

Waitlist movement is always a function of people with multiple acceptances, barring deferred acceptances or some other situation that doesn't occur too often.

 

It's possible that some schools will experience more movement than in previous years, while others will experience less than in previous year. In the end though, the total movement should be pretty much the same relative to other years.

 

For instance, let's say Kareem gets accepted to Mac, but is waitlisted at U of T. He really wants U of T, but firmly accepts Mac so as to not look like an unwise gambler if he doesn't get accepted off the U of T waitlist. It turns out, however, that if Kareem had gambled, he would have received the final offer of acceptance to U of T. Now that he left, Sin-Young moved up the list and is now a U of T med student.

 

 

If provisional acceptances were in play, Kareem could have accepted Mac conditionally and then eventually accepted U of T firmly once he moved up enough on the waitlist. He would have received the final waitlist offer, so Sin-Young would have been out of luck.

 

Now that Kareem is no longer going to Mac, Afeni moves up a spot and she now has an offer to Mac.

 

This wasn't a great or intricate example, but it shows that regardless of which acceptance method is used, the overall waitlist movement will be the same.