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I think its also a highly individual thing as well. I'm in a research based masters and I know I couldnt have been successful in my top choice med school (Mac) straight out of undergrad. I went to a very small UG school which had little to know independent learning. For me, this was a perfect UG experience; however, I would have struggled at Mac fresh out of my degree not really knowing how to motivate myself to study without the constatnt pressure of upcoming exams. After doing a masters at a massive school that is totally focused on independent learning, I totally think at a different level than I did during my UG. So i agree, from my own personal experience, that grad students think differently than UGs..again, this is my own individual experience!!! But I dont think this thinking makes them a "better candidate for med school". I've seen som fantastic UGs come through my lab where I think "holy crap! Geniuses!' but then I've also TA-ed some UGs who should have never passed 1st year and wonder why I'm failing them in anatomy when they called the deltoid muscle the gluteus maximus.

Same thing with grad students..there are some amazing graduate students in my lab but then there are ones who write "These are the results I found. Isn't that awesome?!" in an abstract to be submitted to a conference. :confused:

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Anyways, I think you guys all do get it to some extent. Undergraduates do not have first-hand experience as a graduate student, they do not know what it's like having to come up with an idea, having it ripped apart by their committee, and reworking it multiple times to account for experimental failures and newly published data. They just think it's so easy because all they do is piggy-back on an established project and if lucky, they'll get their name on it.

 

 

I disagree with this statement to some extent. I'm in my undergrad and I'm proud to say that I have gone through all of the things you've listed in the above paragraph: I took up a project which has barely been tackled in the research community; I've had my model ripped apart by different professors/supervisors from my university as well as other universities; I've had them question the validity of my study and the accuracy of my model; I've had to come up with the model myself (because as I mentioned not many people have tried to tackle this side of research or investigate what the heck is going on); I had to break it apart, think of math equations to prove why it's valid, then put it back together, just to be ripped apart again.

 

My project was never connected to any of the graduate student project's in the lab. In fact, all of the grad students (and undergrads) are studying the lower limbs - no one is tackling the upper extremity (hand + arm). I was always all alone. If I was lost, I was totally lost and there was no one to help me. I had to go to libraries and read books and journals, contact other professors from other universities, contact other grad students that are doing something connected to my research all across Canada, while at the same time having to deal with my supervisor who didn't know much about the subject. So, not only did I have to prove to the committee that my project is valid, but I also had to prove it to my supervisor and the rest of the research community.

 

However, I do know of undergrads who are precisely what you've described and those people piss me off and annoy me so much. Basically, your paragraph seems to generalize all of the undergrads and group them into one pile (sorry if I misunderstood). Reality says, there are undergrad students who really are keen about their research and I believe those are the ones who should go into Masters.

 

And in the end, when you get that applause, when you get the recognition, it is all worth it. When you have people from your line of research, great minds, respectful scientists, saying they're looking forward to your manuscript or the rest of your research or contacting you to do a Ph.D. with them, you're up in the air and you realize that in the end, you're not a piece of ****... you're not a retard... you're so much more than that.

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I disagree with this statement to some extent. I'm in my undergrad and I'm proud to say that I have gone through all of the things you've listed in the above paragraph: I took up a project which has barely been tackled in the research community; I've had my model ripped apart by different professors/supervisors from my university as well as other universities; I've had them question the validity of my study and the accuracy of my model; I've had to come up with the model myself (because as I mentioned not many people have tried to tackle this side of research or investigate what the heck is going on); I had to break it apart, think of math equations to prove why it's valid, then put it back together, just to be ripped apart again.

 

My project was never connected to any of the graduate student project's in the lab. In fact, all of the grad students (and undergrads) are studying the lower limbs - no one is tackling the upper extremity (hand + arm). I was always all alone. If I was lost, I was totally lost and there was no one to help me. I had to go to libraries and read books and journals, contact other professors from other universities, contact other grad students that are doing something connected to my research all across Canada, while at the same time having to deal with my supervisor who didn't know much about the subject. So, not only did I have to prove to the committee that my project is valid, but I also had to prove it to my supervisor and the rest of the research community.

 

However, I do know of undergrads who are precisely what you've described and those people piss me off and annoy me so much. Basically, your paragraph seems to generalize all of the undergrads and group them into one pile (sorry if I misunderstood). Reality says, there are undergrad students who really are keen about their research and I believe those are the ones who should go into Masters.

 

And in the end, when you get that applause, when you get the recognition, it is all worth it. When you have people from your line of research, great minds, respectful scientists, saying they're looking forward to your manuscript or the rest of your research or contacting you to do a Ph.D. with them, you're up in the air and you realize that in the end, you're not a piece of ****... you're not a retard... you're so much more than that.

 

 

;) You my dear, are quite an outlier. You are one of the most dedicated undergrads I have ever seen when it comes to research. And I mean that wholeheartedly. You probably have more worthwhile experiences and try harder than most grad students I know. You are going to kill your graduate program when you start, can't wait to see where your future research leads you.

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I disagree with this statement to some extent. I'm in my undergrad and I'm proud to say that I have gone through all of the things you've listed in the above paragraph: I took up a project which has barely been tackled in the research community; I've had my model ripped apart by different professors/supervisors from my university as well as other universities; I've had them question the validity of my study and the accuracy of my model; I've had to come up with the model myself (because as I mentioned not many people have tried to tackle this side of research or investigate what the heck is going on); I had to break it apart, think of math equations to prove why it's valid, then put it back together, just to be ripped apart again.

 

My project was never connected to any of the graduate student project's in the lab. In fact, all of the grad students (and undergrads) are studying the lower limbs - no one is tackling the upper extremity (hand + arm). I was always all alone. If I was lost, I was totally lost and there was no one to help me. I had to go to libraries and read books and journals, contact other professors from other universities, contact other grad students that are doing something connected to my research all across Canada, while at the same time having to deal with my supervisor who didn't know much about the subject. So, not only did I have to prove to the committee that my project is valid, but I also had to prove it to my supervisor and the rest of the research community.

 

However, I do know of undergrads who are precisely what you've described and those people piss me off and annoy me so much. Basically, your paragraph seems to generalize all of the undergrads and group them into one pile (sorry if I misunderstood). Reality says, there are undergrad students who really are keen about their research and I believe those are the ones who should go into Masters.

 

And in the end, when you get that applause, when you get the recognition, it is all worth it. When you have people from your line of research, great minds, respectful scientists, saying they're looking forward to your manuscript or the rest of your research or contacting you to do a Ph.D. with them, you're up in the air and you realize that in the end, you're not a piece of ****... you're not a retard... you're so much more than that.

 

Leap87, it's wonderful to see undergraduates such as yourself..but you are most definitely not the norm, rather a great exception! =)

 

When I was in my undergrad, I was fairly heavy into research and did 3 summers as well as my honours thesis with the same supervisor. I was given mostly "menial" work to do at the beginning, but at the end of my third year was given my own independent project which has spurred into my current masters project.

 

So as someone who has seen both sides, no, the skills you learn in grad school are most definitely not ones you would gain from undergrad, at least in the same context. People have talked about critical thinking, independent learning, etc as all skills picked up in grad school which is completely valid.

 

However, I think the one key skill picked up from grad school is perseverance. I've seen 3 graduate students quit in our department since Sept, and the thought of quitting has ran through my mind at least once a day. To the person who talked about lab meetings giving weekly guidance and such, i'd LOVE to see the lab that does this. In my lab, and many others, guidance from the supervisor/committee is minimal at best. The student is essentially left to their own devices and that's an extremely intimidating thing to be faced with early on. In undergrad, you are given courses, you're given an end point and it's up to you to get there (ie: studying texts, writing papers, etc). There is nothing of the sort in grad school. It's all about forging your own path and it's a very difficult thing to do fresh out of undergrad.

 

So, for me anyway, grad school has taught me to be a stronger person and not fall at signs of trouble. To an extent, anyone who has gone through undergrad has this, but not to the degree a graduate student has.

 

All of the above is in general terms, of course. There are those grad students who don't qualify from the above as well as extremely talented undergrad students. But frankly, most undergrads don't have the life experience and broadened thinking a graduate student comes to learn.

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Leap87, it's wonderful to see undergraduates such as yourself..but you are most definitely not the norm, rather a great exception! =)

 

When I was in my undergrad, I was fairly heavy into research and did 3 summers as well as my honours thesis with the same supervisor. I was given mostly "menial" work to do at the beginning, but at the end of my third year was given my own independent project which has spurred into my current masters project.

 

So as someone who has seen both sides, no, the skills you learn in grad school are most definitely not ones you would gain from undergrad, at least in the same context. People have talked about critical thinking, independent learning, etc as all skills picked up in grad school which is completely valid.

 

However, I think the one key skill picked up from grad school is perseverance. I've seen 3 graduate students quit in our department since Sept, and the thought of quitting has ran through my mind at least once a day. To the person who talked about lab meetings giving weekly guidance and such, i'd LOVE to see the lab that does this. In my lab, and many others, guidance from the supervisor/committee is minimal at best. The student is essentially left to their own devices and that's an extremely intimidating thing to be faced with early on. In undergrad, you are given courses, you're given an end point and it's up to you to get there (ie: studying texts, writing papers, etc). There is nothing of the sort in grad school. It's all about forging your own path and it's a very difficult thing to do fresh out of undergrad.

 

So, for me anyway, grad school has taught me to be a stronger person and not fall at signs of trouble. To an extent, anyone who has gone through undergrad has this, but not to the degree a graduate student has.

 

All of the above is in general terms, of course. There are those grad students who don't qualify from the above as well as extremely talented undergrad students. But frankly, most undergrads don't have the life experience and broadened thinking a graduate student comes to learn.

 

broadened thinking perhaps is a benefit of grad school, but we UG do have plenty of "perseverance" life experiences that are at least equal to grad school. Full-time work to support the family, going through a chronic sickness, can all teach this value equally well. And leap? hahha... kudos on your awesomeness, hopefully by the time I graduate I will be similarly involved. Good luck to everybody in med apps!

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well said!!It honestly blows how a

30 yr old with a phd, 5 publications, +


30 mcat, among other things and a 3.5 is getting rejected, pre-interview!!

 

After publishing, I have gained new respect for it (bc it is a long and difficult process- only those that have published can appreciate)

 

To me, that phd student seems like a better candidate than a 4.0 undergrad student with a 40 mcat.

 

The same can be said of a 4th year UG student compared to a 1st year or 2nd year UG student (although 1st and 2nd years cannot apply..lol).

 

 

And with respect to the antisocial phd student, iam sure its true for the antisocial 4.0 undergrad student (something that a 1 hr interview cannot really reveal)

 

 

Honestly, there is something seriously wrong about the application/admission process (and Iam guessing its bc of underfunding).

 

Also, you must understand (to the undergrad comment)- that medicine is based on research and the only reason why this field has excelled to what it is now. UG education, although research based (barely), is nothing compared to a phd or msc.

 

i think the scholastic factor can only go so far, that is why i appreciate the us- holistic application system more-but you need $ for that

 

 

thats my 2 cents

 

uhm i don't really understand... if you want to do med, why did you go to grad school at first?

 

What you mean to say is make masters or phD a requirement for medschool... cuz seriously, theres 3000 students applying and around 250 get accepted and according to you, they should all be grad students, who already had decided earlier what to do with their future.

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what??

 

i have never said: "What you mean to say is make masters or phD a requirement for medschool"- u read better (using asian voice)

 

ps...i stopped reading anything on this tread after the 6th comment..

 

i will jus say this

 

ut.....are you in grad school now?

 

ut:"no"

me: extactly...

 

end of convo

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what??

 

i have never said: "What you mean to say is make masters or phD a requirement for medschool"- u read better (using asian voice)

 

ps...i stopped reading anything on this tread after the 6th comment..

 

i will jus say this

 

ut.....are you in grad school now?

 

ut:"no"

me: extactly...

 

end of convo

 

I'm not saying that masters or phD doesnt have its merits. But having that degree does not automatically make graduate students superior intellectually. That was the sentiment I reacted to initially.

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uhm i don't really understand... if you want to do med, why did you go to grad school at first?

 

I knew I wanted to do med, but I decided I wasn't ready at that time (wanted to get out of Nova Scotia, experience moving to a place where i didn't know anyone, get a chance to travel and learn about something that interested me). So, I went to grad school. I still want to do medicine, and in my honest opinion, I am a much better candidate now and realize I want it more than ever. There are lots of routes to med school, and I think it is up to everyone to find the route that works best for them.

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I knew I wanted to do med, but I decided I wasn't ready at that time (wanted to get out of Nova Scotia, experience moving to a place where i didn't know anyone, get a chance to travel and learn about something that interested me). So, I went to grad school. I still want to do medicine, and in my honest opinion, I am a much better candidate now and realize I want it more than ever. There are lots of routes to med school, and I think it is up to everyone to find the route that works best for them.

 

Couldnt you have done this in an OOP med school like UBC or Toronto?

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Leap87, it's wonderful to see undergraduates such as yourself..but you are most definitely not the norm, rather a great exception! =)

 

When I was in my undergrad, I was fairly heavy into research and did 3 summers as well as my honours thesis with the same supervisor. I was given mostly "menial" work to do at the beginning, but at the end of my third year was given my own independent project which has spurred into my current masters project.

 

So as someone who has seen both sides, no, the skills you learn in grad school are most definitely not ones you would gain from undergrad, at least in the same context. People have talked about critical thinking, independent learning, etc as all skills picked up in grad school which is completely valid.

 

However, I think the one key skill picked up from grad school is perseverance. I've seen 3 graduate students quit in our department since Sept, and the thought of quitting has ran through my mind at least once a day. To the person who talked about lab meetings giving weekly guidance and such, i'd LOVE to see the lab that does this. In my lab, and many others, guidance from the supervisor/committee is minimal at best. The student is essentially left to their own devices and that's an extremely intimidating thing to be faced with early on. In undergrad, you are given courses, you're given an end point and it's up to you to get there (ie: studying texts, writing papers, etc). There is nothing of the sort in grad school. It's all about forging your own path and it's a very difficult thing to do fresh out of undergrad.

 

So, for me anyway, grad school has taught me to be a stronger person and not fall at signs of trouble. To an extent, anyone who has gone through undergrad has this, but not to the degree a graduate student has.

 

All of the above is in general terms, of course. There are those grad students who don't qualify from the above as well as extremely talented undergrad students. But frankly, most undergrads don't have the life experience and broadened thinking a graduate student comes to learn.

 

 

I knew I wanted to do med, but I decided I wasn't ready at that time (wanted to get out of Nova Scotia, experience moving to a place where i didn't know anyone, get a chance to travel and learn about something that interested me). So, I went to grad school. I still want to do medicine, and in my honest opinion, I am a much better candidate now and realize I want it more than ever. There are lots of routes to med school, and I think it is up to everyone to find the route that works best for them.

 

I am in complete agreement with the sentiments expressed by the other grad students on this thread....in particular the 2 above.

 

I also always knew that I wanted to do med, yet just was not ready for it after undergrad. The thought of sitting through another lecture or writing another exam after 4th year made me either want to vomit or put a gun to my head.....I needed a break. I had done a lot of research in my undergrad and was actually INTERESTED in research, and so I decided to pursue a master's. I didn't do it because I wanted to boost my chances of getting into med. I did it because I wanted to expose my brain to a different type of learning for awhile (and I agree with what other grad students have said...undergrad research is NOT the same as grad research). It was a great experience and I think that I'll be a better doctor because of it.

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So, for me anyway, grad school has taught me to be a stronger person and not fall at signs of trouble. To an extent, anyone who has gone through undergrad has this, but not to the degree a graduate student has.

 

I totally second this. I had to deal with a major crisis today, and I was feeling so down and upset and then thought to myself about how character-building it must be to deal with adversity and turn things around as I plan to do now. I can't wait to keep working and making my work even better as I move forward.

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(and I agree with what other grad students have said...undergrad research is NOT the same as grad research).

 

I disagree. It all depends on who your supervisor is and how much work you do as an undergrad in the research environment.

 

If undergrad research is really NOT the same as grad research, then how come, I'm sitting right now on 3 manuscripts being published at the end of this year (which is btw MUCH MORE than any of the grad students in my lab - and some of them are fantastic and brilliant and sitting right now on 1 publication)? Also, how come I've been scheduled to attend an international conference next year where my research will be presented?

 

Maybe at your university, undergrad research is not the same as grad research. But at mine and within my lab, you can do anything you want as an undergrad if you know how to independently study, have critical skills, think skeptically about your results and other journal articles you read... For the past year or so, I've been considered a grad student even though I'm not.

 

So, while undergrad research might be bull**** to some, it's really not - depending on the student, supervisor, research facility and university. I have also met some incredibly bright minded undergraduates from other universities who have received awards for their research on both provincial and national levels, while at the same time competing against graduate students for the same awards. And I have met graduate students who worked their butts off in undergrad and published at the end of their undergrad as much as I am about to - some of them a bit more. Talking to these particular grad students was incredibly rewarding because they basically transferred their skills into grad and are now, not only doing their research and popping publications, but also have their own companies and work for well established organizations.

 

The advantages of doing research as an undergrad are huge. I wish there was a way to show this to other undergrads who will end up doing their Masters and either hating it, dropping out or wishing they never got into it.

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I disagree. It all depends on who your supervisor is and how much work you do as an undergrad in the research environment.

 

If undergrad research is really NOT the same as grad research, then how come, I'm sitting right now on 3 manuscripts being published at the end of this year (which is btw MUCH MORE than any of the grad students in my lab.

 

If you are talking about 3 first-author publications, then I'd be very impressed!!!!!!

 

There is quite a big difference though when it comes to first author pubs and 2+ author pubs...although being an author in general is quite impressive.

 

Grad students, for the most part, are first authors on their pubs...at least in my field.

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If you are talking about 3 first-author publications, then I'd be very impressed!!!!!!

 

There is quite a big difference though when it comes to first author pubs and 2+ author pubs...although being an author in general is quite impressive.

 

Grad students, for the most part, are first authors on their pubs...at least in my field.

 

Yes. First author. As I have mentioned, no one in my lab was investigating the upper limb - no grads, no undergrads. I was alone on the project with my supervisor. 90% of work was done by me during all 3 projects - hence why I'm the first author on them. One of the grad students helped out a bit but it's not his area of expertise - either way he got 2nd author and my supervisor is 3rd.

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Couldnt you have done this in an OOP med school like UBC or Toronto?

 

I could have, but like I said, I wasn't ready to go to med school when I was 21. I don't regret going to grad school at all. It gave me so many opportunities to go to international conferences (I actually got paid to go to Europe one year!) and learn from experts in my field, meet some incredibly bright and inspiring peers, indulge my interest in obstetrics and gynecology and genetics, and most importantly, the networking opportunities (something I think will be very useful in 4 years for carms) were fantastic. In all honesty, four years ago, I wouldn't have had the experiences, skills or confidence to succeed in med.

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leap, I think you need to realize that everyone here is speaking very generally. You are definitely not the norm, in fact you're a freak of nature by undergrad standards (in a very good way). Generally speaking, undergraduate research is not at all comparable to graduate research. I've done both now and can attest to that- even with an excellent supervisor in undergrad and an excellent work ethic. Its not just that most undergrads don't have the drive nor the time, but also that the supervisors lack the drive and time to dedicate to undergrads when it could be allocated to grad students.

 

I'm in agreement with the sentiment expressed by fellow grad students here. I really feel I'm a much better candidate than I would have been applying straight out of my undergrad. I've always been a very mature person, but my master's degree has added a whole new level to this. I'm much more experienced, confident, and genuinely feel that there isn't a problem I can't solve (even if that problem is a room full of professors trying to pick apart my thesis:D )

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Yes. First author. As I have mentioned, no one in my lab was investigating the upper limb - no grads, no undergrads. I was alone on the project with my supervisor. 90% of work was done by me during all 3 projects - hence why I'm the first author on them. One of the grad students helped out a bit but it's not his area of expertise - either way he got 2nd author and my supervisor is 3rd.

 

Well, I tip my hat to you! Congrats! :)

 

That is incredibly impressive and will definitely be noticed on your application because 3 first-authored papers is amazing coming from undergrad, especially if you can get them into peer-reviewed high-impact journals. :)

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Well, I tip my hat to you! Congrats! :)

 

That is incredibly impressive and will definitely be noticed on your application because 3 first-authored papers is amazing coming from undergrad, especially if you can get them into peer-reviewed high-impact journals. :)

 

Thanks. :) I'm not applying to med though. Haha. I guess the research sucked me in, so I decided to stay put. :P

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leap, I think you need to realize that everyone here is speaking very generally. You are definitely not the norm, in fact you're a freak of nature by undergrad standards (in a very good way). Generally speaking, undergraduate research is not at all comparable to graduate research. I've done both now and can attest to that- even with an excellent supervisor in undergrad and an excellent work ethic. Its not just that most undergrads don't have the drive nor the time, but also that the supervisors lack the drive and time to dedicate to undergrads when it could be allocated to grad students.

 

I'm in agreement with the sentiment expressed by fellow grad students here. I really feel I'm a much better candidate than I would have been applying straight out of my undergrad. I've always been a very mature person, but my master's degree has added a whole new level to this. I'm much more experienced, confident, and genuinely feel that there isn't a problem I can't solve (even if that problem is a room full of professors trying to pick apart my thesis:D )

 

Hahahahaha... Thanks for calling me "a freak of nature." You're not the first one. lol. :P

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Thanks. :) I'm not applying to med though. Haha. I guess the research sucked me in, so I decided to stay put. :P

 

Well, having 3 first author publications in research is going to take you very, very, very far. Best of luck to you! I feel that supervisors will definitely fight to get you in their lab if you are that productive!!!!!! I only had one first author publication and it got me a bunch of scholarships. I can only imaging what having 3 might do for you!

 

 

May I ask what you are doing on premed if you aren't interested in applying to medicine? Just curious :)

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Well, having 3 first author publications in research is going to take you very, very, very far. Best of luck to you! I feel that supervisors will definitely fight to get you in their lab if you are that productive!!!!!! I only had one first author publication and it got me a bunch of scholarships. I can only imaging what having 3 might do for you!

 

 

May I ask what you are doing on premed if you aren't interested in applying to medicine? Just curious :)

 

Hahaha... Yeah. I already have professors asking if I can do my Ph.D. with them and lots of other different opportunities.

 

Well, I was planning on going into medicine. That was my initial goal. Then I got into research - research that I love. Courses related to my research made me want to take more courses and learn more about it and essentially I ended up in ergonomics and motor control field. So, with a lot of opportunities coming my way late last year and this year in particular, I weighted my options and decided that research and Ph.D. is a better path for me.

 

I don't know. I don't feel as enthusiastic about meds as I do about research. Research brings me energy (and the research I'm doing is within rehab sector so it is still kind of medically related), while medicine, the dry, hard-core medicine is just meh for me. So I stayed on premed forum because I know a lot of things about med plus I met some cool people on here... haha

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I don't know. I don't feel as enthusiastic about meds as I do about research. Research brings me energy (and the research I'm doing is within rehab sector so it is still kind of medically related), while medicine, the dry, hard-core medicine is just meh for me. So I stayed on premed forum because I know a lot of things about med plus I met some cool people on here... haha

 

Funny, the opposite happened to me....I was initially excited about research. In undergrad all I wanted to do was get a PhD, and laughed at those who wanted to get into medicine. Many years later, my opinion has switched. I had a great time doing my masters and I learned a heck of a lot about myself, how to work independently and in teams and how to tackle difficult problems, but I really felt that working with people was more my calling rather than working on answering specific questions in a novel way.

 

I think it is great that you want to do research and were flexible enough to let yourself diverge from your initial interest. People grow and as they do they learn a lot more about themselves and what they really want to do. I have a lot of respect for people who allow themselves to be flexible and open to other options.

 

Good luck with everything!

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Funny, the opposite happened to me....I was initially excited about research. In undergrad all I wanted to do was get a PhD, and laughed at those who wanted to get into medicine. Many years later, my opinion has switched. I had a great time doing my masters and I learned a heck of a lot about myself, how to work independently and in teams and how to tackle difficult problems, but I really felt that working with people was more my calling rather than working on answering specific questions in a novel way.

 

I think it is great that you want to do research and were flexible enough to let yourself diverge from your initial interest. People grow and as they do they learn a lot more about themselves and what they really want to do. I have a lot of respect for people who allow themselves to be flexible and open to other options.

 

Good luck with everything!

 

I guess it depends what line of research you enter. I deal with patients on a daily basis and just watching them go through so much pain/disability without actually knowing a) what is causing the disease and B) how to fix it, really annoys me to the max. If I were analyzing cells or something like that, I highly doubt I would be as excited about research as I am.

 

But thanks Noodle! :) Good luck to you too! ;)

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