Decision: Second Degree or Masters?

[pbms]

Hello, I've enjoyed reading these forums for close to 6 months now but never bothered to make an account because most of my questions would be answered through a simple search. For a while, I thought I knew where my path would be, but after talking to students, profs, and going to some med school seminars in Ontario (where I live) I am not so sure, so I was wondering if you veterans of the forums could help me. I'll start by explaining my situation:

 

I am going to be finishing my undergraduate degree at the University of Toronto this April (in about 15 days), and in retrospect, it's been a bumpy journey. The thought process during most of those years was trying to cram my way through my tests, and, if I didn't do as well as I thought I could have, simply wave it off and assume I could always pull it back up in my later years. Of course, those years went by and the urgency just wasn't there, until I finally find myself in the fourth year and have come to a sort of realization that with my current grades, med school is most likely not an option.

 

However, this is something I can see myself doing, unlike any other profession I have tried to imagine, and I'm determined to see it through. I applied to some schools sort of like a warm-up exercise (to be familiar with the process), and there was no surprise in the rejection. Now this coming September I'm left with a decision: should I do a second degree, or a Masters?

 

From what I've heard, med schools will look at your last undergrad degree, so taking another one is like a fresh start. Is that true? Also, I want to maintain some semblance of youth by the time I graduate, so I would prefer as quick a route as possible - which means doing a 3 year degree. Would this impact the med school decision in any way (keeping in mind I also have a 4 year degree)?

 

For graduate schools, thankfully I was able to pull myself together to have a high enough GPA in my last year to go to the Masters of my choice (Physiology) if I so want to. This would give me a much better portfolio for what I lack currently (research experience), but I have also heard that a Masters is not a free ticket to med school (obviously), in that it won't help someone with a barely above 3 GPA get in .

 

Given my circumstances, what would you say would be the better choice to get into a North American med school (no Caribbean please...) : a second degree (new start) or Masters (boost research, experience, etc.)?

[dbjones]

Hello,

It is, in my opinion, you do another degree.

Not all med schools with look at your last degree. Each are different.

Some schools in Canada have modified GPA criteria. Western, Queens, Dal, etc.

In your second degree obtain a GPA of at least 3.8 in each of the years.

This should be sufficient to cover the GPA cutoffs of the schools mentioned above.

After completing this first task, write the MCAT. Get a balanced MCAT score that meets the cutoffs for each respective section (PS, BS, V, WS)

Also, keep in mind that the cutoffs change each year.

Read the cutoffs for each of the schools in their forums and take a look at the 'Non-traditional section' of the site. Oh and keep a full course load and other rules to follow.

Hope this helps.

edit. p.s keep in mind that this is an uphill battle.... But some people have done it.

[w8kg6]

I was at a similar impasse last year, and made a thread about it. I got some good responses, and you're welcome to read through them. Here's the link th the thread:

 

http://www.premed101.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33900

[dreamer87]

a masters is only a good idea if you already have the appropriate grades in your undergrad, but for whatever reason you wish to pursue research also. you see the issue is, you will still be in the same pool as the other undergrads when you apply, even as a masters student, so they will count your undergrad marks even if you have a grad degree, and if those do not meet the cutoffs, no matter how good your masters is you will be disqualified.

 

you say your marks in last year were good enough for physiology masters, which i believe at UT is a B+ cutoff, so it means you have good grades this year (i believe the accepted GPA is much higher than a B+, in the last two years).

 

what is your GPA like from third year?

there are schools like western and queens which would see only your last 2 years, and if in those two you are at about 3.8ish you might have a shot.

if so, do an extra year and really aim for those schools - i believe even if you have 1 year that's good, you can get a conditional interview/acceptance from western, so you could try that - and in your extra year take courses which you can use towards your second degree. if it doesn't work out, you can use those classes towards your second degree, do that and apply again.

 

if your GPA for even your last two years isn't good enough, and if med is what you really want, you need to get the undergrad grades because at the end of the day, masters or not that's all that counts, so you should start another undergrad degree. look in the non-trad section of this forum for a bunch of people doing second degrees

[Sebriz]

I am in the same boat as you my friend. I think what I am going to do is finish up my degree in Microbiology this year in about 21 days and I have applied into a different College at the same university (commerce) to pull up my GPA in the next 2 years and write my MCAT this summer!

[HBP]

Have you taken full courseloads?

 

Can you break down your GPA (OMSAS) yearly?

[Dongzhuo]

It's a tough decision. As you said, a masters is by no means a ticket to med school. You still need stellar grades. That said, some American schools may accept you with a lower grade if you have other things to compensate, such as papers in prestigious journals and a very high MCAT score. So this is route one. But you could fail to get into medical school, and be happy with research as a permanant job.

 

Another bachelors degree would also be dangerous. It's three years of uncertainty, and if you don't get into medical school, its wasted time, since it really won't help as far as employment is involved. But it's the best chance of raising your GPA.

 

In conclusion, I believe the best choice for now is to focus on

1)Get into a prolific lab and publish in some seriously good journals

2) Get an insane score on the MCAT

3) Focus on applying to American Schools

 

I do believe you have a shot. Good luck

[supafield]

At Western you can't achieve a 2nd degree that's lower than your first.

 

So if you did an honours degree for the first one, you need at least an honours degree for the second one. However, schools have fairly liberal transfer credit systems. Western was something like 10 or 11 courses could be transferred. (So you didn't have to do any electives again, you were just getting the core courses of the degree)

 

So I did one honours degree in Kin and was able to do a second honours degree in health sci in two years with a couple intersession courses the one year.

 

Also, most schools do not forget about your first degree when you start a second. There's a thread outlining how each school looks at it.

http://premed101.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39681

 

Just something to keep in mind. I went the second degree route and it worked well for me. You have to know why you didn't pull it off in the first degree. If that's fixable, then go for it....

[Prothrombin]

Are your latter 2 years competitive? There are lots of people in general and on here who screwed up the first and even second year of undergrad but bounced back and got very competitive 3rd and 4th years +MCATs and got accepted. If you have competitive 3rd and 4th years you might want to consider a 5th year of undergrad.

[pbms]

I was at a similar impasse last year, and made a thread about it. I got some good responses, and you're welcome to read through them. Here's the link th the thread:

 

http://www.premed101.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33900

 

Ahh, I didn't realize there was an existing thread about this topic, I'll be sure to check it out.

 

To everyone who wanted to know my mark breakdown, it is sort of like an uphill trend, which I've heard some med schools like, but to be honest I don't think they'll be happy with this =p.

First year: 2.4

Second year: 2.9

Third year: 3.45

Last year: If all goes well, I should be looking at around 3.8-3.9.

 

I have also done my MCATS, and have done quite well, I hope, but I doubt enough to counteract my low GPA - 35Q (13, 11, 11).

 

@HBP - No in a couple years I have had to drop a course and retake or take another course in the summer (I know this disqualifies me from the U of T weight system).

 

I also forgot about transferring course credits - perhaps it would be possible to get another honours degree in 3 years. Question on that though: can you choose which courses to transfer over (e.g. all the ones you've done well on =) )?

 

Keeping in mind I have already tried applying to the med schools this year, and so applying again is not an option, I need something to do for the coming year or more. I did think about the 5th year, but as I realize, many OMSAS schools do not count that, most likely cuz they know its usually just a mark booster =/.

[supafield]

If you finish with a 3.8+ this year and assuming you met Westerns course requirements for the year which are:

 

3.0 of the 5.0 course would have had to been at the 3rd or 4th year level and you would have had to take at least a 5.0 course load.

 

So if you meet that above condition you do have another option with your MCAT score.

 

You could take a non-degree year after graduating (A 5th year).

 

Western would grant you an interview on your 4th year alone.... and MCAT scores.... If you did well enough to get an acceptance it would be conditional on you exceeding their cutoff during your current year (which would be the 5th year).

 

If you're 4th year is good for Western's requirements this is the way I would go.

One year above 3.7-3.75 and meeting the MCAT cutoffs which you look pretty safe for gives you a shot.

[HBP]

^No need to graduate, just do a 5th year.

[pbms]

If you finish with a 3.8+ this year and assuming you met Westerns course requirements for the year which are:

 

3.0 of the 5.0 course would have had to been at the 3rd or 4th year level and you would have had to take at least a 5.0 course load.

 

So if you meet that above condition you do have another option with your MCAT score.

 

You could take a non-degree year after graduating (A 5th year).

 

Western would grant you an interview on your 4th year alone.... and MCAT scores.... If you did well enough to get an acceptance it would be conditional on you exceeding their cutoff during your current year (which would be the 5th year).

 

If you're 4th year is good for Western's requirements this is the way I would go.

One year above 3.7-3.75 and meeting the MCAT cutoffs which you look pretty safe for gives you a shot.

 

I see, so you're saying since Western only looks at the last 2 years, taking a 5th year could meet the criteria. Only problem I see, wouldn't it be really risky to base doing a 5th year on 1 med school alone (as you're inferring, for Western)? Would it not be less risky to work towards a second degree at least, so that I could apply to a much broader range of schools?

[supafield]

I see, so you're saying since Western only looks at the last 2 years, taking a 5th year could meet the criteria. Only problem I see, wouldn't it be really risky to base doing a 5th year on 1 med school alone (as you're inferring, for Western)? Would it not be less risky to work towards a second degree at least, so that I could apply to a much broader range of schools?

 

If you were tactful in choosing your courses for that 5th year, you could choose them in such a way that they would also work as the first year of a new degree. You could try for Western.... if it fails, then you could enroll in a second degree, with a years worth of those courses already completed.

 

You'd have to be quite strategic to find a second degree that would allow you to take some of their courses even as a non-degree student.

[UTPEOPLE]

I see, so you're saying since Western only looks at the last 2 years, taking a 5th year could meet the criteria. Only problem I see, wouldn't it be really risky to base doing a 5th year on 1 med school alone (as you're inferring, for Western)? Would it not be less risky to work towards a second degree at least, so that I could apply to a much broader range of schools?

 

you would also get queens as well, no (last two years?), plus your chances at ottawa could go up with their weighting of the last years more heavily

[DOC_Ma]

you would also get queens as well, no (last two years?), plus your chances at ottawa could go up with their weighting of the last years more heavily

 

Ya you could get queens if your last 2years GPA is above like 3.7 or something. Dude nice MCAT score! Don't waste your time for another degree, if I were you I'd apply to western with a special year and if GPA makes the cut for queens then then queens as well. I agree with you that you shouldn't place all your egges in 1 basket however, for those 2 schools the randomness is much smaller. As long as you meet the cut offs u r gaurenteed interviews.