This reminds me of Fahrenheit 451...

[cnb88]

So I read this: http://www.edmontonjournal.com/news/Schools+ponder+children+book/2776321/story.html

today in the Edmonton Journal. Now I haven't read the book, but just reading the article made me think of all of those "banned book lists" in the States and the book "Farenheit 451" (which, ironically, is on some of those lists). I guess, since I haven't read it I can't comment on whether or not it's prejudiced. But, my thing is, is if this one is banned because of the negative way it portrays "all" Israelis, then really, all novels about the holocaust should be banned as well, for negatively portraying all German people (because oftentimes all Germans are portrayed as Nazis). It becomes a slippery slope then... if you start doing that, you should take out all the books dealing with other social things like religion, age, etc. because of people possibly being offended by it. Soon we'd be living in a world just like that in Fahrenheit 451.

I'm not saying kids should be reading books with messages spouting hate in them, but kids are smarter than a lot of people give them credit for. Use the book as an opening for discussion on issues.

Like I said, I haven't read the book in question, so I can't definitively say "it shouldn't (or should) be banned from schools", and I was just wondering what others' opinions/thoughts were about banned books in general (and if anyone has read this one-is it really ban-worthy?)...

[w8kg6]

I disagree with a lot of the points your post made. Like you, I haven't read this book, but it seems like the potential ban that is being pursued is not as wide spread as the general bans that have been imposed on some other books (both in the US and in Fahrenheit 451). Although you're correct in saying that children are smarter than people give them credit for, this book is aimed at youths in grades 7-8. At this age the average Canadian youth simply hasn't had the exposure to the world politics that would be required to be able to read this book critically, and as such they do not have a reference frame through which to see the protagonist's plight against the Israelis. A ban might be too harsh, and I doubt it will go through... but I definitely agree with the statement that this book is inappropriate for general use in a grade 7-8 classroom.

 

Concerning the notion that if this book is banned, all books concerning religion, culture, etc. should also be banned, I think that you're pretty far off base here. The Isreali-Palestinian conflict is an extremely complex issue that requires an in depth knowledge of middle eastern relations to fully understand. It's not NEARLY as clean-cut as the holocaust was, as in that case it is pretty clear who the bad guy is. That's not the case in the middle east right now, so the two are incomparable. Also, regarding German portrayal as Nazis, I don't think this is extremely accurate. I would agree that it is a part of German history that comes to most people's minds when Germany is mentioned, but the vast majority of people realize that this this a thing of the past. Also, let's face it, the Germans did bring this stigma on themselves. I'm sure that if the Isrealis launched a campaign of systematic eradication of all Arabic speaking people, they too would be painted with a brush similar to the one that has colored the Germans for the past 6.5 decades.

 

This isn't a slippery slope. If a book requires a knowledge or insight that wouldn't be found in a population (in this case, 13 year olds), then it simply isn't an appropriate book for that population. There are many other books aimed at this age group that deal with racial/ethnic/political/sexual orientation differences, but these books ARE appropriate, because like you've said, youths are smarter than people give them credit for. They have the capacity to realize that the only difference between races is skin color and (in some cases) cultural background. They can be shown that political differences is what leads to the best possible governing body, and they can learn that people with a sexual orientation other than their own differ from themselves only because they like having sex with a different gender. To understand the plight of the character in this case, and to be able to take an objective, critical perspective on her strife, a person would need something that 13 year olds don't have. As such, the book doesn't belong in a grade 7-8 classroom.

[Tango Charlie]

Yeah, that's some bull****, there. The Palestinians have been getting screwed by Israel with Western support for years and years. Now, I have zero sympathy for Palestinian militant groups who suicide Israeli civilians, but the point is that it's definitely not a conflict where one side is clearly right and the other is wrong. As such it's even more important that both sides be allowed to make their case. There's also a terrible irony in Jews trying to censor books which don't agree with their viewpoint.

 

Also, the Fahrenheit 451 analogy doesn't seem to be really fitting. As I recall, books were banned and burned by guys like Guy Montag because the government basically wanted a citizenry which was dumb and ignorant and only knew what they were told. It wasn't about trying to make a society as inoffensive as possible, it was about trying to make a society that would be happy and content right up until the moment they were incinerated in nuclear fire.

 

If a book requires a knowledge or insight that wouldn't be found in a population (in this case, 13 year olds), then it simply isn't an appropriate book for that population.

 

I don't think the book is a fact-riddled textbook encompassing the entire conflict from the end of WW2 onward. It sounds fairly benign and like it might be a good introduction to a point of view that you never really get to hear about in Canada. Besides, quite a bit of what is taught in schools to kids that age is a cursory glance at what's really a deep and complicated topic. You could even say that part of the point in discussing stuff like the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, or WW2, or the Boer War, is to get kids interested and thinking and perhaps even pursuing more information on their own. That was certainly true for me when I got into grade 9 history.

 

Either way, throwing the book away because it doesn't concur with the side Canada and the States have taken in the conflict may not be the right choice.

[runningdoc]

I certainly don't want to get involved in the Israel-Palestine debate as that is another topic altogether but I am going to have to vehemently disagree with the "this isn't appropriate for Grade 7/8 kids because they haven't been exposed to this stuff" argument. My wife is a school teacher and this type of material is not only discussed but encouraged in the classroom.

 

I have read this book and while it certainly does not portray a number of issues in a warm and glowing manner, it also doesn't stray very far from the reality of the situation. It doesn't go out of its way to condemn Israeli's, nor does the message of the book instruct to incite hatred and violence.

 

It's overreacting on a hot-button issue which usually happens from one side or the other. If the shoe had fallen on the other foot and this book was about the unfortunate and innocent Israeli civilians who are blown up by suicide bombings/rockets B'nai B'rith wouldn't bat an eye about having it in the schools and a Palestinian sympathizing group would.

[w8kg6]

I'm just trying to think of where a class conversation would go with this book. From what I've seen, most westerners sympathize with the Israelis rather than the Palestinians. I think that if a teacher were to bring out arguments about the Palestinian struggle, they would be better understood and better related to by a group of grade 10s than a group of 13 year olds. I definitely think that topics such as this need to be part of our educational system, and if this book truly is even-handed, then it would be a great tool to use in the classroom, but I think it would be better spent on a group of people who have a bit more maturity and insight than a typical 13 year old.

[runningdoc]

Depending on the region you are in, the younger grade school populations are far from being "white" anymore. There is quite a bit of diversity, and in a fair number of regions you actually see a lot of Palestinian children where they have direct relatives still living in the "danger zones".

 

Issues of racial discrimination, sexism (both gender and gender-preference related), political ideology are taught as low as grade 3. The depth of the discussion certainly is going to change based on the age, but you would be surprised with some of the things that are mentioned in classes today. There are a lot of problems with how the education system is run (you can't even fail kids anymore for the most part) but there actually is quite a bit of open dialogue. It just never gets reported when you have classes that do deal with big issues in a positive manner.

[cnb88]

At this age the average Canadian youth simply hasn't had the exposure to the world politics that would be required to be able to read this book critically, and as such they do not have a reference frame through which to see the protagonist's plight against the Israelis.

 

Concerning the notion that if this book is banned, all books concerning religion, culture, etc. should also be banned, I think that you're pretty far off base here. The Isreali-Palestinian conflict is an extremely complex issue that requires an in depth knowledge of middle eastern relations to fully understand.

 

Also, let's face it, the Germans did bring this stigma on themselves. I'm sure that if the Isrealis launched a campaign of systematic eradication of all Arabic speaking people, they too would be painted with a brush similar to the one that has colored the Germans for the past 6.5 decades.

 

This isn't a slippery slope. If a book requires a knowledge or insight that wouldn't be found in a population (in this case, 13 year olds), then it simply isn't an appropriate book for that population. There are many other books aimed at this age group that deal with racial/ethnic/political/sexual orientation differences, but these books ARE appropriate, because like you've said, youths are smarter than people give them credit for. They have the capacity to realize that the only difference between races is skin color and (in some cases) cultural background. They can be shown that political differences is what leads to the best possible governing body, and they can learn that people with a sexual orientation other than their own differ from themselves only because they like having sex with a different gender. To understand the plight of the character in this case, and to be able to take an objective, critical perspective on her strife, a person would need something that 13 year olds don't have. As such, the book doesn't belong in a grade 7-8 classroom.

 

The problem I find with your argument is that according to you, unless someone has in depth knowledge of the situation, you shouldn't be reading something concerning it. Most people in the world I'm sure do not understand the complexity of the situation in the Middle East (I know I sure don't) but that doesn't mean that they shouldn't read books. The thing is is that this book is fiction, not a textbook (like someone also mentioned).

 

I see your point there (in the second paragraph) with the way I worded my original post. My point is, is that a lot of books deal with extremely complex issues, extremely controversial issues, so it becomes a slippery slope where if you start banning one book because of the controversiality of it, other people will want to ban other books for similar reasons. That was my point there.

 

Concerning your point about the "Germans bringing it on themselves"... not everyone in Germany was a Nazi, not even all the soldiers themselves believed in Nazism, but fearmongering can go a long way making people too scared to speak out against injustice (for example, if there wa a gun held to your children's head, and you were told that unless you joined they would be killed, would you really stick to your guns and say you don't believe in something?). So you can't blame an entire country of people fearing for their lives and the lives of their families. Was it bad? Of course- it was terrible, but that doesn't mean that every single person that lived in Germany at the time should be painted with the same brush as Hitler/Himmler. But that's a whole other can of worms I'm not going any further into....

 

I think you have to start introducing controversial/complex issues into the classroom. What better way to learn about the complex issues, and the various sides. Where else are these kids going to learn it from?

[cnb88]

Also, the Fahrenheit 451 analogy doesn't seem to be really fitting. As I recall, books were banned and burned by guys like Guy Montag because the government basically wanted a citizenry which was dumb and ignorant and only knew what they were told. It wasn't about trying to make a society as inoffensive as possible, it was about trying to make a society that would be happy and content right up until the moment they were incinerated in nuclear fire.

 

It just reminded me of Fahrenheit 451 in that I remember that books were banned by the higher-ups (in all fairness I remember only a very little of the book- I read it sooooo many years ago!). It wasn't necessarily direct comparison. But I think if you start worrying about making everyone content and inoffensive, it could turn into a similar situation that the book deals with.

[Tango Charlie]

I think you have to start introducing controversial/complex issues into the classroom. What better way to learn about the complex issues, and the various sides. Where else are these kids going to learn it from?

 

Where else indeed. With the terrible bias that exists in the West in favour of the Israeli side of the conflict there really aren't a lot of places you can expect to see kids taught about this stuff. It's a great opportunity for young people to get a broader appreciation of a topic they've no doubt heard of, but have little understanding of, from the Palestinian side in particular.

 

It just reminded me of Fahrenheit 451 in that I remember that books were banned by the higher-ups (in all fairness I remember only a very little of the book- I read it sooooo many years ago!). It wasn't necessarily direct comparison. But I think if you start worrying about making everyone content and inoffensive, it could turn into a similar situation that the book deals with.

 

Yeah, alright. I'm definitely all aboard with the idea that banning any books at all is nonsense, but Fahrenheit 451 portrayed a pretty extreme dystopia. I'd say the future from The Handmaiden's Tale is much more plausible.