MD/PhD students - do they really have a leg up on the rest of us?

[LuuLuu421]

So... I will preface this by disclosing that I am a 3rd yr medical student in the regular program.

 

I was chatting with an MD/PhD student who joined my class for clerkship. They said they were interested in specialty x and that they wouldn't back up b/c there was no/little fear of being unmatched. He/she said that MD/PhD's typically get their first choice and that if they were to go unmatched it would reflect poorly on the school.

 

Any opinions? Can't say that all the MD/PhD students I've met were superstars in the clinic but does the PhD really make them that much more attractive to residency programs?

[UTPEOPLE]

So... I will preface this by disclosing that I am a 3rd yr medical student in the regular program.

 

I was chatting with an MD/PhD student who joined my class for clerkship. They said they were interested in specialty x and that they wouldn't back up b/c there was no/little fear of being unmatched. He/she said that MD/PhD's typically get their first choice and that if they were to go unmatched it would reflect poorly on the school.

 

Any opinions? Can't say that all the MD/PhD students I've met were superstars in the clinic but does the PhD really make them that much more attractive to residency programs?

 

There is a definite advantage, all else being equal, but the problem is that things are not equal. Like how a graduate degree is no guarentee of med school admission, md/phD should certainly be not a guaruntee of CARMs matching. Each person can bring their own unique stuff to the table, and although MD/Phd might get to the interview stage easier, their arrogance/superiority complexes are going to turn off the panel, while someone with a "mere" MD and great personality should be able to get a spot. That said, I have heard rumors that some carms specialities require at least a masters (like neurosurgery), so if no graduate degree = out of luck

[sfinch]

An MD-PHD has an advantage sure. Most programs would love to have a phd in their specialty. And who cares if they have an advantage. And MD/PHD takes a mininum of 7 years to do - but almost everyone, even those with masters before they start, take usually 8-10 years. They sacrifice their youth and earning potential by alot.

 

If you start your MD-PHD at toronto at age 22.

 

On average - md/phd granted at age 30-32 then (and of course if you start at the mature age of 23+).

Specialty granted at age 35-38 - and if extra subspecialty training in a surgical specialty - add an extra year or two.

 

For a young man or woman starting their md/phd - we are looking at age 35-38 at the earliest before they starting making decent money. THAT IS A HUGE SACRIFICE.

 

Now i am myself interested in a phd during whatever specialty I end up doing. A phd is a love for research - not money.

[cheech10]

It's not that big an advantage. I've seen numerous cases where the PhD ends up being in a different field from the specialty in the end. Also, many programs prefer their residents to do a PhD during residency (lengthening it by ~5 years, and giving them extra free labour, as they usually pick up the occasional call shift during that time).

[UTPEOPLE]

It's not that big an advantage. I've seen numerous cases where the PhD ends up being in a different field from the specialty in the end. Also, many programs prefer their residents to do a PhD during residency (lengthening it by ~5 years, and giving them extra free labour, as they usually pick up the occasional call shift during that time).

 

how is it free labour? I thought Phd during residency means you get paid a fourth year resident's salary, which is like 75k

[sfinch]

It's 'free' for the staff consultants, who get to bill for the resident's work, but don't pay the residents themselves. Improves their quality of life.

[WKim101]

MD/PHD are often undertaken by people that want status. I would say the majority of Canadian medical students, if they wanted to, could get into a md/phd program because demand to get into one is not that high.

 

These programs take 8-10 yrs as finchy above said. Then most want a specialty as well, so another 5-6 years from what I have read. And if in surgery, maybe longer if one is training in some fancy new robotic type surgery or whatever.

 

So after a 4 yr undergrad degree, another 13-15 years before any reasonable income. That is a HUGE sacrifice. And the PHD is not going to earn you more money - perhaps a better chance at working at a good university hospital. And if you are a good speaker, in your 40s maybe supplement your income with talks (IF YOU ARE GOOD).

 

An md/phd is a long long road. Many suffer from relationship problems i bet as well. Financial things are difficult if you have kids that you want to send to private school or what not.

 

Not for me. Anyways, I'm currently sitting on a Dal acceptance - but hoping for Toronto, McMaster, McGill or UBC to pan out.

[NewfieMike]

There is a definite advantage, all else being equal, but the problem is that things are not equal. Like how a graduate degree is no guarentee of med school admission, md/phD should certainly be not a guaruntee of CARMs matching. Each person can bring their own unique stuff to the table, and although MD/Phd might get to the interview stage easier, their arrogance/superiority complexes are going to turn off the panel, while someone with a "mere" MD and great personality should be able to get a spot. That said, I have heard rumors that some carms specialities require at least a masters (like neurosurgery), so if no graduate degree = out of luck

 

you're right. All MD/PhDs are arrogant and have god complexes.

 

Shame on them for wanting to do more schooling!

[UTPEOPLE]

you're right. All MD/PhDs are arrogant and have god complexes.

 

Shame on them for wanting to do more schooling!

 

I meant with respect to the PHD in the OP, where it seemed he believed that a phd was a ticket to any Carms match he wanted.

[leap87]

There is a definite advantage, all else being equal, but the problem is that things are not equal. Like how a graduate degree is no guarentee of med school admission, md/phD should certainly be not a guaruntee of CARMs matching. Each person can bring their own unique stuff to the table, and although MD/Phd might get to the interview stage easier, their arrogance/superiority complexes are going to turn off the panel, while someone with a "mere" MD and great personality should be able to get a spot. That said, I have heard rumors that some carms specialities require at least a masters (like neurosurgery), so if no graduate degree = out of luck

 

I've got to say this: In what world are you living? Seriously. People who pursue an MD/Ph.D. are those that are interested in both, med and research! If you take a look at any hospital, you will notice that there are A LOT of physicians with a Ph.D. But I should assume they all suffer from superiority complexes?! Are you serious?! Isn't it better to kill 2 birds with one stone? Why not get a Ph.D. when you have the opportunity to do so? Why not make research a part of your medical skills and contribute to medicine in a different why - ie preventing the disease instead of just trying to cure it? You've clearly never met an individual with an MD/Ph.D.

 

It blows my mind that you can make a claim such as the one above with no proof whatsoever! It's not about superiority. It's about wanting to become more educated, and striving to be the best and diverse physician you can be. After all, it's people's lives we have in our hands!

 

Research without medicine is lame. Medicine without research is blind.

[TheFonz]

There is a definite advantage, all else being equal, but the problem is that things are not equal. Like how a graduate degree is no guarentee of med school admission, md/phD should certainly be not a guaruntee of CARMs matching. Each person can bring their own unique stuff to the table, and although MD/Phd might get to the interview stage easier, their arrogance/superiority complexes are going to turn off the panel, while someone with a "mere" MD and great personality should be able to get a spot. That said, I have heard rumors that some carms specialities require at least a masters (like neurosurgery), so if no graduate degree = out of luck

 

With all due respect, and I know it's been said to you by others, but would you mind not posting about things of which you have no idea? Last I checked, you're an undergrad who hasn't even applied to med school yet. This is not a personal attack, but you honestly have no idea about what constitutes a successful CaRMS applicant. For those of us looking for important information, this essentially serves as a distraction.

[jcman]

who cares? what was the point of saying that? Are you sfinch's brother?

 

Well played. I was about to call him/her on that too.

[LuuLuu421]

Lots of good points here.

 

Guess I just felt obliged to ask about what other people thought as I felt a little bit irked by that individual's attitude towards CaRMS. It did seem like they thought they were head and shoulders above everyone else ... which I didn't neccessarily think was true.

 

I've met a number of a MD/PhD physicians who are great clinicians and researchers .. very dynamic and innovative. That being said, most of the ones that I had met did their PhD's after or during residency and had geared it toward their area of specialty.

[NewfieMike]

yeah, the guy mentioned in the OP is probably just a douche bag. You'll find them in any program.

[sfinch]

who cares? what was the point of saying that? Are you sfinch's brother?

 

lol.. i have read his posts too. He seems smart. He's from waterloo, so i'm sure some of the u waterloo people here know him. HE wishes he was my brother though...

 

I only applied to 6 med schools myself, had interviews at 5, and only got into 2 (with 3 waitlists), so i'm pretty sure this guy will 'beat' me. But you can only go to one med school.

 

I'm pretty sure this dude will be at Toronto next yr.

[WaveSense]

MD/PHD are often undertaken by people that want status. I would say the majority of Canadian medical students, if they wanted to, could get into a md/phd program because demand to get into one is not that high.

 

These programs take 8-10 yrs as finchy above said. Then most want a specialty as well, so another 5-6 years from what I have read. And if in surgery, maybe longer if one is training in some fancy new robotic type surgery or whatever.

 

So after a 4 yr undergrad degree, another 13-15 years before any reasonable income. That is a HUGE sacrifice. And the PHD is not going to earn you more money - perhaps a better chance at working at a good university hospital. And if you are a good speaker, in your 40s maybe supplement your income with talks (IF YOU ARE GOOD).

 

An md/phd is a long long road. Many suffer from relationship problems i bet as well. Financial things are difficult if you have kids that you want to send to private school or what not.

 

Not for me. Anyways, I'm currently sitting on a Dal acceptance - but hoping for Toronto, McMaster, McGill or UBC to pan out.

 

Not everyone is in it for the money.. just a FYI

[UTPEOPLE]

With all due respect, and I know it's been said to you by others, but would you mind not posting about things of which you have no idea? Last I checked, you're an undergrad who hasn't even applied to med school yet. This is not a personal attack, but you honestly have no idea about what constitutes a successful CaRMS applicant. For those of us looking for important information, this essentially serves as a distraction.

 

You dont have to live in alaska to know that its cold there. Similarly, we dont have to have gone through Carms in order to know the sorts of things they are likely selecting for. Graduate degrees will be one factor, but so will a lot of experiences in life that make up a smart, dedicated and amicable applicant. Similarly, though I haven't had the pleasure of applying yet, I have finished my preparations and I am certainly not behind the loop in terms of information. Many of my friends are already in medical school, and a colleague of mine is currently a surgical resident at the University of Toronto. From her (she also does med school applications for u of t), I know roughly the processes that go into selecting med school applicants, as well as the rough issues surrounding Carms. Considering that a mere 4 months of summer separates me from someone who has not applied to med and someone who has, I see no reason why my opinion is less important than that of fellow peers on this forum.

[A-Stark]

You dont have to live in alaska to know that its cold there. Similarly, we dont have to have gone through Carms in order to know the sorts of things they are likely selecting for. Graduate degrees will be one factor, but so will a lot of experiences in life that make up a smart, dedicated and amicable applicant. Similarly, though I haven't had the pleasure of applying yet, I have finished my preparations and I am certainly not behind the loop in terms of information. Many of my friends are already in medical school, and a colleague of mine is currently a surgical resident at the University of Toronto. From her (she also does med school applications for u of t), I know roughly the processes that go into selecting med school applicants, as well as the rough issues surrounding Carms. Considering that a mere 4 months of summer separates me from someone who has not applied to med and someone who has, I see no reason why my opinion is less important than that of fellow peers on this forum.

 

No, you don't know what you're talking about. You do not need a graduate degree for CaRMS, though it probably doesn't hurt; the interview and other factors are far more important. What's more, while it's true that to work in an academic centre a grad degree and/or fellowship is typically required, this can be and usually is done during residency. You don't need a PhD to get into med school and you certainly don't need one to get into residency, nor is there a "definite advantage" when it comes to CaRMS. The MD/PhD population is small and very distinct. You shouldn't consider it unless you're absolutely certain of a career in research - and even then it's hardly necessary. The major impact on your CaRMS match as an MD/PhD student is that it will be delayed by several years, well after many of your classmates in first year have already finished residency. I don't tend to think of that as a "good life choice".

[UTPEOPLE]

No, you don't know what you're talking about. You do not need a graduate degree for CaRMS, though it probably doesn't hurt; the interview and other factors are far more important. What's more, while it's true that to work in an academic centre a grad degree and/or fellowship is typically required, this can be and usually is done during residency. You don't need a PhD to get into med school and you certainly don't need one to get into residency, nor is there a "definite advantage" when it comes to CaRMS. The MD/PhD population is small and very distinct. You shouldn't consider it unless you're absolutely certain of a career in research - and even then it's hardly necessary. The major impact on your CaRMS match as an MD/PhD student is that it will be delayed by several years, well after many of your classmates in first year have already finished residency. I don't tend to think of that as a "good life choice".

 

Really? a graduate degree is not a requirement for any of the specialties? I remember reading somewhere that neurosurgery at u of t has a graduate student requirement (at least a masters)

 

Edit; after more research, I mistook a blurb on the program (strongly favour those with a keen interest in research) as meaning that they prefer graduate students. Sorry for the confusion, I was just trying to find an example where a graduate degree is CLEARLY beneficial (as opposed to being just one of many factors that could lead to matching)

[cheech10]

Again, you're drawing conclusions on things you have no idea about. As someone who has served on both CaRMS admission committees and Medicine PGY-4 fellowship admission committees, I can tell you that graduate degrees have MINIMAL benefit to an applicant. On the other hand, some evidence of research productivity, esp first author peer-reviewed journal publications, together with an expressed desire to complete a graduate degree in conjunction with residency or fellowship, are MUCH more useful, if one is selling themselves as a future academic physician (you can also sell yourself as one not interested in academic work, in which case a grad degree is, frankly, useless).

[UTPEOPLE]

Again, you're drawing conclusions on things you have no idea about. As someone who has served on both CaRMS admission committees and Medicine PGY-4 fellowship admission committees, I can tell you that graduate degrees have MINIMAL benefit to an applicant. On the other hand, some evidence of research productivity, esp first author peer-reviewed journal publications, together with an expressed desire to complete a graduate degree in conjunction with residency or fellowship, are MUCH more useful, if one is selling themselves as a future academic physician (you can also sell yourself as one not interested in academic work, in which case a grad degree is, frankly, useless).

 

So Carms admission commitee dont look at graduate degrees as a "demonstrated" interest in research?

 

by the way, this is highly interesting.. gathering information is fun. thanks a lot for sharing!

[spf2010]

I think it probably depends on the program. In dermatology this year, all 4 MD/PhD applicants got spots. None of the PhD's were dermatology-centred (from what I remember). I think only 1 of them had done any dermatology research. Not all want to lead a research-centred career in the future (they seemed pretty open about that, but maybe they changed their response during the interview). I think most, if not all, of them backed up with other specialties, though (no cocky attitudes about being guaranteed a position AT ALL). They were all nice people and I'm sure good candidates otherwise, but it would be crazy to say that their MD/PhD didn't help them.

 

That's not to say that's the way it is for other programs, or even for dermatology in future years - just how it played out this year.

 

spf2010

[Prion]

MD/PHD are often undertaken by people that want status. I would say the majority of Canadian medical students, if they wanted to, could get into a md/phd program because demand to get into one is not that high.

 

These programs take 8-10 yrs as finchy above said. Then most want a specialty as well, so another 5-6 years from what I have read. And if in surgery, maybe longer if one is training in some fancy new robotic type surgery or whatever.

 

So after a 4 yr undergrad degree, another 13-15 years before any reasonable income. That is a HUGE sacrifice. And the PHD is not going to earn you more money - perhaps a better chance at working at a good university hospital. And if you are a good speaker, in your 40s maybe supplement your income with talks (IF YOU ARE GOOD).

 

An md/phd is a long long road. Many suffer from relationship problems i bet as well. Financial things are difficult if you have kids that you want to send to private school or what not.

 

Not for me. Anyways, I'm currently sitting on a Dal acceptance - but hoping for Toronto, McMaster, McGill or UBC to pan out.

 

McGill has already made acceptance offers for OOPs. Are you WLed? Might want to be more specific there

[UTPEOPLE]

McGill has already made acceptance offers for OOPs. Are you WLed? Might want to be more specific there

 

ouch...

10chars

[peachy]

They were all nice people and I'm sure good candidates otherwise, but it would be crazy to say that their MD/PhD didn't help them.

MD/PhD folks are such a specialized, highly selected population to start with, that it's really impossible to know whether or how much the actual PhD helps vs if the same people had gone through medical school without the PhD. Throw in the highly idiosyncratic, unpredictable, name-dropping, and often random, nature of CaRMS, and you're really not going to get an answer to whether it really helps or not.

 

In the end, it doesn't matter all that much. People usually do MD/PhD either because they love research and want solid training, or because they want the prestige of a PhD. I don't think anyone does it simply to get a leg up in the CaRMS process because there are much, much, much easier ways to do that than to spend an extra 4 or more years of your life in the lab!!