MD/PhD students - do they really have a leg up on the rest of us?

[apache]

or people do a phd, realize they don't like research or can't get a job, and apply to medicine... ?

 

Again, not true in most cases. Look at the admission statistics of any med school and you'll find that only 1-2 or even zero people get in each year with an already conferred PhD. Why? It's because 99% of PhD's don't even care about med school. An MD is not considered prestigious in the research world. A PhD is; they still have the Doctor title so many don't care to get the extra MD letters. The ones that do get in are likely getting in for the reason's I pointed out in my post above. Someone with an already conferred PhD is a researcher first and formost. They do the MD because they're interested in that area, want to gain a better understanding for something, want to do research from a more clinical perspective, or just don't want to do research every day of the week. I guarantee that 99% of these people are not doing it for prestige.

 

Really, i dont think anyone going the MD/PhD route is looking for prestige, but if I had to give an answer as to who's more likely to seek prestige out of someone who already has a PhD, or an undergrad who is applying MD/PhD, it's the undergrad. The undergrad, despite the summer NSERCs or whatever they may have, has no true understanding of what research is, what a PhD means and how much work is involved in getting it. Since undergrads are allowed directly into MD/PhD's, probably more likely to find a kid in this situation who says "yeah I'll do the double doctor thing; get me a good residency spot, and make me look good in front of my MD classmates."

[osteon]

or people do a phd, realize they don't like research or can't get a job, and apply to medicine... ?

 

Sure, but how does that suggest they are going into the MD for the prestige? In fact, what you just said supported the argument I made above lol.

[polysicks]

I'm finishing a PhD and will be starting medicine in the fall. I decided when I was 17 that I wanted to be an MD/PhD. When I was 17 and very, very, naive, I'm pretty sure it was all about the prestige. I also thought I would be a Doogie Howser and finish things up pretty quickly.

 

I started research first as I had a great experience in undergrad with an independent research supervisor, and decided to drag it out a little longer. I also felt that I wasn't personally or professionally mature enough at the time to be able to manage the gravity of decisions made in a clinical career.

 

A few years later, and after giving great thought to a career in research, I realized a life in research is personally unsatisfying in a number of ways that I could fulfill by taking on a clinical role.

 

I hope to maintain some research activity but I suspect that if I wish to be a really world class researcher I would still need to conduct a pure research post-doctoral fellowship, thus adding even more time to my training, and as I'm already feeling old, this isn't a very appealing option to consider.

 

My research/publications have direct clinical relevance to a few specialties that interest me so I hope they give some advantage, and I guess I'll find out in a few years.

[apache]

actually, it doesn't, if you read my initial post i suggested that phds who go into mds after they are finished their phd they are more likely to go into an md for prestige than those in the md/phd program, not that this is the case in the majority of cases; i.e. this could mean 5 percent versus 2.5 percent, as i insinuated a relative ratio, rather than absolute majority. personally, i believe most people who go into an md after a phd do so because they don't want a career in research, not for for prestige, but there's a difference in the terms majority and relative ratio.

 

with regard to your point that people who go into phd's with the intent to do an md afterwards, i believe that they realize sometime during their phd that this isn't the life for them. read the post above mine and ignore the fact that he wanted to do an md/phd when he was 17, because i don't believe this to be the relative probabilistic intention of most phds to mds of cases, if you want an example; however i believe the dissatisfaction in research to be very evident in those in the phd to md cohort. because of this, the idea of giving up 5 years of clinical salary does not immediately enter their mind, as they have no intent on going into medicine afterwards, until they realize that they are not satisfied, for whatever reason, in a career in research

 

i hope the italics clarify what i mean to say, sometimes i write with minute technicalities blended into casual writing and people overlook the details because of the context of casuality, and that's mostly my fault, cheers

 

Sure, but how does that suggest they are going into the MD for the prestige? In fact, what you just said supported the argument I made above lol.

[peachy]

Look at the admission statistics of any med school and you'll find that only 1-2 or even zero people get in each year with an already conferred PhD.

My medical school class at U of T included approximately a dozen folks who had already earned their PhD's.

 

The amount of hostility here towards MD/PhD students is awfully odd, imho. It's certainly not the right career option for most people, which is why they are small programs! But for some small number of people, they are a good option. There's really no other way to get the intense and extended research training that a PhD entails. Sure, it may not be the best way to get a PhD if your goal is to get the letters behind your name as quickly as possible, or you want to do clinical research, or you want to maximize your career earnings. But if you want to get a good solid research training, there's nothing like it.

[bloh]

actually, it doesn't, if you read my initial post i suggested that phds who go into mds after they are finished their phd they are more likely to go into an md for prestige than those in the md/phd program, not that this is the case in the majority of cases; i.e. this could mean 5 percent versus 2.5 percent, as i insinuated a relative ratio, rather than absolute majority.

 

You are speaking out of your butthole. No one, absolutely no one in their right mind would go for an MD for prestige after their PhD. Everyone does it because they are either jaded with academe, do not like it or are just fed up with the financial uncertainty that comes with it. And I'm speaking from personal experience here.

[osteon]

My medical school class at U of T included approximately a dozen folks who had already earned their PhD's.

 

I don't doubt it, but U of T is an anomaly from all other Canadian schools in that they place a lot of emphasis on research/grad work, giving PhD's an advantage (and maybe even incentive to apply?). This is showcased by their 3.0 grad GPA cut off at U of T as well. At most other schools, this is not the case.

[A-Stark]

Well, my class has I think 3 PhDs and numerous masters. It's not that unusual.

 

And, yes, the notion that anyone would follow up a PhD with an MD for "prestige" is... well, words don't describe how ridiculous that is.

[apache]

did you read my post... ? le sigh at poor reading skills... i'll repost it and you can just read the bolded parts... to make it clear, very few people do md/phd's for prestige, but of those who do, they're more likely to be in the phd to md cohort because they ****ing hate research, but even then, most of these people aren't doing it for prestige, theyre just more likely to do so than the md/phd cohort, even if its only 5 percent of them and the other 95 percent just hate their ****ing phd, it's still more than the 2.5 percent who go into it for prestige in the md/phd program even though as a whole of phd to md cohorts theyre in the minority, get it? prestige is high relative to md/phd cohort, but still extremely low overall... here's the grade 5 version of the post again :

 

actually, it doesn't, if you read my initial post i suggested that phds who go into mds after they are finished their phd they are more likely to go into an md for prestige than those in the md/phd program, not that this is the case in the majority of cases; i.e. this could mean 5 percent versus 2.5 percent, as i insinuated a relative ratio, rather than absolute majority. personally, i believe most people who go into an md after a phd do so because they don't want a career in research, not for for prestige, but there's a difference in the terms majority and relative ratio.

 

with regard to your point that people who go into phd's with the intent to do an md afterwards, i believe that they realize sometime during their phd that this isn't the life for them. read the post above mine and ignore the fact that he wanted to do an md/phd when he was 17, because i don't believe this to be the relative probabilistic intention of most phds to mds of cases, if you want an example; however i believe the dissatisfaction in research to be very evident in those in the phd to md cohort. because of this, the idea of giving up 5 years of clinical salary does not immediately enter their mind, as they have no intent on going into medicine afterwards, until they realize that they are not satisfied, for whatever reason, in a career in research

 

i hope the italics clarify what i mean to say, sometimes i write with minute technicalities blended into casual writing and people overlook the details because of the context of casuality, and that's mostly my fault, cheers

 

You are speaking out of your butthole. No one, absolutely no one in their right mind would go for an MD for prestige after their PhD. Everyone does it because they are either jaded with academe, do not like it or are just fed up with the financial uncertainty that comes with it. And I'm speaking from personal experience here.

[osteon]

Regardless of how much bold and italics you use, I disagree with your argument that one who goes into a MD after a PhD is more likely to do it for prestige than an MD/PhD student. Again, MD/PhD's can be fresh from undergrad and their NSERC USRAs or whatever they're called, thinking they know what research is and then sign up for the MD/PhD to look good in front of their peers in med school or for residency matching. Someone with a previous PhD, likely isn't satisfied with just research, as you alluded to previously, and so goes the MD route as a career choice. How does this equate to prestige? People with previous PhDs are not looking for more prestige - they already have it.

[osteon]

PS I'm pretty sure you're just a little jealous that some of your potential MD classmates could already be called doctor even while just starting the MD program. Maybe you misinterpret these people as prestige seekers.

[Sarah Tonin]

People with previous PhDs are not looking for more prestige - they already have it.

 

I totally agree. Someone with a PhD is an expert in their field and they definitely already have prestige. The more likely motivation for doing an MD after the PhD is to supplement their research with clinical work.

[apache]

i don't care about prestige at all, if won the lottery tomorrow i would drop out of medicine the very day i won, move to california and get phd in sociology (because i like sociology even though it's not "prestigious"), and work as a sessional lecturer and be a musician, not exactly prestigious... in fact, i have a real distaste of people who concern their life with titles. imo, they're wasting their life for a resume that doesn't follow them into the afterlife, what a waste, but that's just my opinion.

 

btw, you're last statement is wrong, 95 percent of them are just people who don't like academia for whatever reason, and probably would like a good job... that's why i'm in medicine, i don't give a crap if i get called doctor, or what people think of me... for me, it's all about the money and job security to live a free life, otherwise i'd be doing grad school somewhere.

 

PS I'm pretty sure you're just a little jealous that some of your potential MD classmates could already be called doctor even while just starting the MD program. Maybe you misinterpret these people as prestige seekers.

[apache]

i just said a small minority of these people do it for that... but seriously, who cares... i feel like im in immunology class talking to annoying pre-meds who asked me what i got on my exam again

 

Regardless of how much bold and italics you use, I disagree with your argument that one who goes into a MD after a PhD is more likely to do it for prestige than an MD/PhD student. Again, MD/PhD's can be fresh from undergrad and their NSERC USRAs or whatever they're called, thinking they know what research is and then sign up for the MD/PhD to look good in front of their peers in med school or for residency matching. Someone with a previous PhD, likely isn't satisfied with just research, as you alluded to previously, and so goes the MD route as a career choice. How does this equate to prestige? People with previous PhDs are not looking for more prestige - they already have it.

[apache]

or because they can't get a job

 

I totally agree. Someone with a PhD is an expert in their field and they definitely already have prestige. The more likely motivation for doing an MD after the PhD is to supplement their research with clinical work.

[Guest copacetic]

nowadays PHD and masters students have an advantage in the job hunt when they are done their training. In canada most of the big centres are centred in big cities, at invariably academic centres (thanks to government mandates). Because of this there is a bias towards applicants with research experience and productivity. masters students and PHDs tend to have more research productivity. You will need a second degree or a fellowship (or 2) to be competitive for jobs (at least this is the situation right now as it may change when all the older guys start retiring soon).

[bloh]

Stuff

 

You could italicize and bold till the cows go home but you can't make relative generalizations for the same reason that you can't generalize about the absolute numbers; you don't have the actual numbers.

[apache]

as penn and teller would say, then neither do you! chill , it's good for your health.

 

You could italicize and bold till the cows go home but you can't make relative generalizations for the same reason that you can't generalize about the absolute numbers; you don't have the actual numbers.

[bloh]

as penn and teller would say, then neither do you! chill , it's good for your health.

 

That's deep coming from a guy that's spam responding to everyone with angst.

 

You are correct. I never made any assumptions. I am only here to squash yours.

[apache]

the first post i made acknowledged that i was making an assumption, or an opinion/experience based statement:

 

"i think a lot more people who get their phd first and then apply to med are more likely to tend to do it for prestige and in order to avoid a career in research than their counterparts who do a combined degree."

 

technically, you did make an assumption, that your view was representative of the truth. we both did.

 

i responded with angst to someone who presumed i was jealous of someone who had a phd, to be very honest, i have a very big distaste toward title seeking, it's one of my few pet peeves, and it reminds me of who i was maybe 4-5 years ago, which led me to be a very unhappy person... i see people chasing titles their whole lives missing out on life, and that greatly bothers me, that's just my personal opinion, maybe that explains the just chill comment.

 

That's deep coming from a guy that's spam responding to everyone with angst.

 

You are correct. I never made any assumptions. I am only here to squash yours.

[A-Stark]

Dissatisfaction with research is a rather compelling reason to change careers post-PhD... but prestige? *After* a PhD? Does anyone do that? I have my doubts. Certainly, I don't know anyone who has done a PhD and is now in medicine or contemplating it who would do it for "prestige". Granted, people enter careers for odd reasons sometimes, but that's a lot of money and time for something that - at most - incrementally increases something as intangible as prestige.

 

did you read my post... ? le sigh at poor reading skills... i'll repost it and you can just read the bolded parts... to make it clear, very few people do md/phd's for prestige, but of those who do, they're more likely to be in the phd to md cohort because they ****ing hate research, but even then, most of these people aren't doing it for prestige, theyre just more likely to do so than the md/phd cohort, even if its only 5 percent of them and the other 95 percent just hate their ****ing phd, it's still more than the 2.5 percent who go into it for prestige in the md/phd program even though as a whole of phd to md cohorts theyre in the minority, get it? prestige is high relative to md/phd cohort, but still extremely low overall... here's the grade 5 version of the post again :

 

actually, it doesn't, if you read my initial post i suggested that phds who go into mds after they are finished their phd they are more likely to go into an md for prestige than those in the md/phd program, not that this is the case in the majority of cases; i.e. this could mean 5 percent versus 2.5 percent, as i insinuated a relative ratio, rather than absolute majority. personally, i believe most people who go into an md after a phd do so because they don't want a career in research, not for for prestige, but there's a difference in the terms majority and relative ratio.

 

with regard to your point that people who go into phd's with the intent to do an md afterwards, i believe that they realize sometime during their phd that this isn't the life for them. read the post above mine and ignore the fact that he wanted to do an md/phd when he was 17, because i don't believe this to be the relative probabilistic intention of most phds to mds of cases, if you want an example; however i believe the dissatisfaction in research to be very evident in those in the phd to md cohort. because of this, the idea of giving up 5 years of clinical salary does not immediately enter their mind, as they have no intent on going into medicine afterwards, until they realize that they are not satisfied, for whatever reason, in a career in research

 

i hope the italics clarify what i mean to say, sometimes i write with minute technicalities blended into casual writing and people overlook the details because of the context of casuality, and that's mostly my fault, cheers

[apache]

yeah, i think it's pretty stupid too, but i'm assuming prestige in those few cases is also coupled with a desire for money, job security, and to get out of research

 

Dissatisfaction with research is a rather compelling reason to change careers post-PhD... but prestige? *After* a PhD? Does anyone do that? I have my doubts. Certainly, I don't know anyone who has done a PhD and is now in medicine or contemplating it who would do it for "prestige". Granted, people enter careers for odd reasons sometimes, but that's a lot of money and time for something that - at most - incrementally increases something as intangible as prestige.

[sgt.pepper]

Prestige is so stupid. I think any PhD student that still loves research, and was offered a tenure track position or even a good post doc that would lead them to a job they like, would not get an MD. People go into an MD after a phD because they either can not find a job, don't like their job, want more money, or to add to their research by adding clinical experience. I think people that just spent 10yrs after HS in school, piss poor, don't really care for "prestige" but $ and security. Undergrads care more for prestige because they are nieve and still usually have their parents taking care of them.

[bloh]

the first post i made acknowledged that i was making an assumption, or an opinion/experience based statement:

 

"i think a lot more people who get their phd first and then apply to med are more likely to tend to do it for prestige and in order to avoid a career in research than their counterparts who do a combined degree."

 

technically, you did make an assumption, that your view was representative of the truth. we both did.

 

i responded with angst to someone who presumed i was jealous of someone who had a phd, to be very honest, i have a very big distaste toward title seeking, it's one of my few pet peeves, and it reminds me of who i was maybe 4-5 years ago, which led me to be a very unhappy person... i see people chasing titles their whole lives missing out on life, and that greatly bothers me, that's just my personal opinion, maybe that explains the just chill comment.

 

My assumption was that you had no evidence to back up yours. And it was correct.

 

[apache]

as was mine:

 

"You are speaking out of your butthole. No one, absolutely no one in their right mind would go for an MD for prestige after their PhD. Everyone does it because they are either jaded with academe, do not like it or are just fed up with the financial uncertainty that comes with it. And I'm speaking from personal experience here."

 

i guess we're both right that we both don't have any evidence. i guess the assumption i made when i said we both we're making assumptions was also correct

 

now seriously, chill

 

My assumption was that you had no evidence to back up yours. And it was correct.