Problem with 2nd year students?!

[Billypnats]

Why is there so little 2nd year students accepted into med school everywhere?

Is it because there's little 2nd year students applying for medschool?

Is it because med school staff think we're inadequetely prepared for medschool?

Or is it because med school just don't like 2nd year students....

 

Oh yea, is it possible to get an idea of the total applications sent to medschools? or some sort of statistical data that you could use to find the probability of you getting in?

[jp1284]

i think it a combination of

 

1. only a couple schools accept applications from 2nd yrs (uofa/uofc)

2. you would have to take mcat the summer between 1st and 2nd year which means you would have to write it before taking organic chem/biochem etc.

3. very few people apply in 2nd year

4. many people mess up 1st year and it takes 2nd, 3rd, 4th to bring gpa up to acceptable level

5. not much time to accumulate ECs

6. there might be some hidden bias against 2nd years from the adcom

[dmleo]

the guy above pretty much said it all... and you gotta realize that deciding to go to med school is a heavy decision itself and takes a few years of life exploring for most people. You know, undergrad is your best chance to really

broaden your experiences and grow as a person. Its great that some get in

after 2nd yr, but life is not just about getting into med school or becoming a doctor

[LookingForInfo]

the guy above pretty much said it all... and you gotta realize that deciding to go to med school is a heavy decision itself and takes a few years of life exploring for most people. You know, undergrad is your best chance to really

broaden your experiences and grow as a person. Its great that some get in

after 2nd yr, but life is not just about getting into med school or becoming a doctor

 

I agree. Quite a few, though not all, people I know want to go into medicine just because they've wanted to be doctors since they were little (or were told to). Undergrad allows you to really explore why you want to go into medicine (i.e. volunteering experiences, shadowing, research/work experience, exploring other options) to make an informed choice about medicine. Especially because, to me anyway, medicine isn't just a simple 9-5 career -- it really becomes a lifestyle.

 

Another thing I'd like to add *perhaps* is that second year students do not have as much life experience or maturity...which may show up at the interview. Since the interview for many schools is a very big chunk of the application process, that may play into it as well. I know for sure that adcoms do prefer 4th year students (especially OOP), such as UofA who sets a 2-person 3rd year OOP quota...I'm thinking they probably have a certain number of 2nd/3rd years that they're willing to take in the end in general as well.

[wtli1988]

I think the above posts rightfully pointed to the main deficiencies that many 2nd (and 3rd) year students have and hit the nail on the head that these deficiencies will be shown in the interview process.

 

One other point I wanted to note is that there is a disparity between the number of 2nd years (and 3rd) that get into the UofA vs. the UofC. For example, for UofC, two (2) students got into the class of 2010 and zero (0) got into the class of 2011. If you add the number of 3rd years getting in then 22 and 12 students got into the classes of 2010 and 2011 respectively. The UofA, on the other hand, took 31 students in their 2nd or 3rd year for the class of 2013 (I don't have other stats). I personally know at least 7 of my close friends that got into the UofA after 2 years of undergrad.

 

So you can see there is a large discrepancy in the number of students they take. Since, for the most part, Albertans apply to both UofA and UofC, the only difference in the two schools should be the selection criteria. While the MMI at UofC accounts for 60% of their post-interview formula, the MMI at UofA only accounts for 25%.

 

This leads me to believe that the difference is the interview skill/performance of these applicants vs. 4th year and above applicants where their weaknesses are weighed more at the UofC vs. UofA and this translates to worse acceptance rates. Another way of thinking of it is that a high GPA and MCAT (which most 2nd and 3rd years have) can mask a poorer MMI performance at the UofA more than at the UofC.

 

Whether they turn out to be better/worse/similar doctors to older applicants is unknown.

[Billypnats]

wow those are a lot of reasons, but I dont get the "can't take organic chem until 2nd year part." I'm going to UoC for my undergrad and haven't selected my courses yet but I've always thought organic chem could be taken "right away"

[skp1187]

wow those are a lot of reasons, but I dont get the "can't take organic chem until 2nd year part." I'm going to UoC for my undergrad and haven't selected my courses yet but I've always thought organic chem could be taken "right away"

 

you have a lot of learning to do...I suggest you start by reading the U of C calendar

[LookingForInfo]

I think the above posts rightfully pointed to the main deficiencies that many 2nd (and 3rd) year students have and hit the nail on the head that these deficiencies will be shown in the interview process.

 

Just to clarify to the original poster, I am a 3rd year OOP that applied/interviewed at both UofC and UofA. I understand and accept the deficiencies that many second/third year students have compared to older students who generally are more experience/mature. That being said, I see many 4th year and beyond students with lack of experience/maturity as well...What I said is just generally applicable.

 

So there's no harm in trying - especially if you've taken the necessary steps in trying to get a good grasp of what medicine really entails and try to broaden your life experience (which I hope I've done) . Now...that being said, back to the countdown threads haha. Good luck everyone thinking/applying/waiting for medicine!

[sparkles3288]

Because a 19 year old typically dosen't have the life experience and maturity to be responsible for the decision and care of other people's lives.

 

Typically being the key word. Many 30+ year olds don't either..

[future_doc]

Under the system in Quebec, lots of 18-19 year olds are accepted into med school and they do just fine compared to those who completed university.

[CD8]

A friend of mine is 19 yo in the US and graduated with his 4yr BSc (one of those prodigy kids.) There, they considered him lacking life experience, even though his credentials were on par if not better than other degree holders. Their file review of him was that he needed to improve his life experience, since it's important to understand and make critical decisions in med. Guessing med schools think the same thing here.

[Billypnats]

thanks for all yer replies, now i just need to know about university courses that I'll need to be aware of, is there some sort of syllabus that I can look at? All I've found so far is

 

http://www.ucalgary.ca/pubs/calendar/archives/2005/what/courses/subject.htm

[skp1187]

Try this calendar: http://www.ucalgary.ca/pubs/calendar/current/index.htm

 

I think its the most recent one, 2009-2010

[arekieh]

i think it a combination of

 

1. only a couple schools accept applications from 2nd yrs (uofa/uofc)

2. you would have to take mcat the summer between 1st and 2nd year which means you would have to write it before taking organic chem/biochem etc.

3. very few people apply in 2nd year

4. many people mess up 1st year and it takes 2nd, 3rd, 4th to bring gpa up to acceptable level

5. not much time to accumulate ECs

6. there might be some hidden bias against 2nd years from the adcom

 

Couple things you got wrong. Im writing MCAT after first and i took organic and biochem.

If you had 90% in highschool chem than you can get into organic chem 164 (equivalent to 261) in fall term. Than take bioch and chem 263 2nd sem.

[dmleo]

Couple things you got wrong. Im writing MCAT after first and i took organic and biochem.

If you had 90% in highschool chem than you can get into organic chem 164 (equivalent to 261) in fall term. Than take bioch and chem 263 2nd sem.

 

 

out of curiosity, what university do you go to? Most universities, If I'm not

mistaken, require you to finish 1st yr chem courses before you can take

ochem. Also bchem has a number of bio pre-req courses to complete.

This only makes sense to me if you got IB or AP credits.

[Billypnats]

I'm glad the topic got switched to IB/AP, I'm currently taking HL ChemIB and doing fairly well so far (got my IB exam in like 1 week D: ) I also finished with a 7 in SL math, unfortunately thats all the IB courses I got to do. Does UoC credit HL chem and/or SL math?

 

My standardized mark for chem is 90 something so far, and my math was around 94 and 97 for calculus

[dmleo]

I'm glad the topic got switched to IB/AP, I'm currently taking HL ChemIB and doing fairly well so far (got my IB exam in like 1 week D: ) I also finished with a 7 in SL math, unfortunately thats all the IB courses I got to do. Does UoC credit HL chem and/or SL math?

 

My standardized mark for chem is 90 something so far, and my math was around 94 and 97 for calculus

 

yes. calgary gives you credit for HL chem, but not sure about SL math.

About using your IB courses for credits, however, there are cons and pros. I believe HL chem gives you credit for chem201 at UC, but I acutally

recommend taking the course anyway because the course got a lab component where you actually learn quite a ton about writing lab reports.

I finished with 7 in HL chem, but I cant say it helped me very much except with the nomenclature in the beginning of the university chem course.

But its totally your call if you wanna save some time/money and skip the first chem course.

[arekieh]

out of curiosity, what university do you go to? Most universities, If I'm not

mistaken, require you to finish 1st yr chem courses before you can take

ochem. Also bchem has a number of bio pre-req courses to complete.

This only makes sense to me if you got IB or AP credits.

UofA

U of A lets you take O-chem first year, that is if you have higher than 90% in high school chem. B-chem can only be taken in second year after the pre-reqs.

No, i already took biochem....

 

 

Here was my schedule for this year (first) at the uofa

 

 

Engl 123, Math 113, Chem 164(261), Chem 101, Biol 107

 

Engl 124, stats 141, chem 263, chem 102, bioch 200

[cgy_guy23]

The biggest problem with younger students is their obvious immaturity...Even when you compare a 19 year old with a 24 year old there is an exponential difference. Although this is obviously a generalization, I feel more times than not it is a warranted one. Although younger students may still perform the same in the end, I do think that the maturity/age plays an important part in patient interaction and patients generally feel more secure with an older med student...especially older patients which make up a large proportion of patients. I have also noticed most really young applicants seem to want to go to med for the wrong reasons or have simply not considered other options as they have not had as much post secondary and/or life experience.

Of course there are exceptions, and there are many older immature post sec students, but IMO that is the predominant reason most med schools have so few 2nd/3rd year students.

[tea_and_oranges]

+1 to the above.

 

While there will be exceptional younger students that should rightfully get a place, they are just that - exceptions.

[TeaHatingBrit]

I'm glad the topic got switched to IB/AP, I'm currently taking HL ChemIB and doing fairly well so far (got my IB exam in like 1 week D: ) I also finished with a 7 in SL math, unfortunately thats all the IB courses I got to do. Does UoC credit HL chem and/or SL math?

 

My standardized mark for chem is 90 something so far, and my math was around 94 and 97 for calculus

dmleo is right; I think you can get credit for HL courses but not SL courses.

 

IMO: it isn't advantageous to take the credit. Because if you take credit you just get a 'pass' or a 'course credit' for it (at U of C). So you don't actually get a grade for it.

 

So why not just take 201/203 - and rock it, because you're slightly more familiar with alot of the material. And get a better grade?

 

I know a few people who took the credit, and just bombed the next course, because you don't know some of the material that kids learned in 201.

[Billypnats]

thanks for the advice, I was actually thinking about doing that...

 

thanks again for the replies but I have ONE last question XD

 

The first digit in course numbers corresponds to the year that you'll be taking it right?

 

like "course 2xx"= 2nd year class?

[TeaHatingBrit]

thanks for the advice, I was actually thinking about doing that...

 

thanks again for the replies but I have ONE last question XD

 

The first digit in course numbers corresponds to the year that you'll be taking it right?

 

like "course 2xx"= 2nd year class?

 

Nope; U of C is fun like that. First year classes @ U of C starts with 2xx.

 

Although at other schools I think they start first year with 1xx.

[osteon]

Although it definitely is true that most 19 year olds are pretty immature and lack life experience, I sincerely think my case is a bit different...

 

I think I have a very personal reason for wanting to go to med school and I dont see this changing in the next 3 years (I am currently a first year student).

 

Although my first year marks arent stellar, if I get my gpa up for the next year to meet the 3.6 cut off (im also OOP) and write my mcat this year - do you think i'll have a good shot? As far as extra curriculars go, i've done a bit of volunteering (2 hospitals, 2 organizations), job shadowing, published first author paper, and a internship at yale this summer.

 

thanks for the advice on this thread, much appreciated

 

Just meeting OOP cutoffs will probably land you a flat-out reject. You have to have a high GPA and high MCAT VR to get to the full file review stage as an OOP.

 

My question for you is if you're in first year, 19 years old, how do you already have a first-author paper? First year isn't even done yet, and as a first-year student (even as an undergrad period) I doubt you have the base-knowledge and experience to support yourself as first author on a research paper. Sounds fishy to me...

[DPforever]

Just meeting OOP cutoffs will probably land you a flat-out reject. You have to have a high GPA and high MCAT VR to get to the full file review stage as an OOP.

 

My question for you is if you're in first year, 19 years old, how do you already have a first-author paper? First year isn't even done yet, and as a first-year student (even as an undergrad period) I doubt you have the base-knowledge and experience to support yourself as first author on a research paper. Sounds fishy to me...

 

I never said it was a research paper

And as for the cut-offs,I thought the same, so I probably wont apply but might still write the MCAT this summer. Thanks for the advice !