Applying to schools overseas

[expo]

Hey everyone,

 

From a point of view of coming back to Canada after med school.

is it better to go to a school in Australia or the Caribbean?

unfortunately my GPA is not competitive enough to get an interview in a Canadian med school.

 

More specifically, If I am interested in becoming a Family doctor in Canada, would it matter if I graduated from a school in Australia (i.e Sydney) or from a school in the Caribbean (Saba) .

 

I have been told by some people in the medical field that graduates from Australia are matched better than graduates from the Caribbean (with regard to coming back to Canada).

 

I need to make a decision soon if someone can offer their opinion on the subject I would appreciate it .

[redshifteffect]

Hey everyone,

 

From a point of view of coming back to Canada after med school.

is it better to go to a school in Australia or the Caribbean?

unfortunately my GPA is not competitive enough to get an interview in a Canadian med school.

 

More specifically, If I am interested in becoming a Family doctor in Canada, would it matter if I graduated from a school in Australia (i.e Sydney) or from a school in the Caribbean (Saba) .

 

I have been told by some people in the medical field that graduates from Australia are matched better than graduates from the Caribbean (with regard to coming back to Canada).

 

I need to make a decision soon if someone can offer their opinion on the subject I would appreciate it .

 

There is nothing wrong with the Caribbean, and SABA is one of the top 4, so either choice you make will probably work out ok for you, as long as you do well on your USMLEs.

 

Personally I'd rather go to Australia, because even if there are no jobs in Oz there will still be jobs in NZ or Singapore. Either country will let you get the FRACGP even if you do your training there, which in turn will allow you to get the CFPC (equivalent as of last year) so you can return to Canada without even getting a match in Canada, and still work as a GP there.

 

By working in Australia you can also pay off your loans faster as a GP then you could in either Canada or the US.

 

Google RRIPS this is money paid to registrars (or "residents" as you may know them in addition to their salary) for training rurally in Oz.

 

You can also check out wave.com.au for an idea about resident/registrar and even consultant locum rates (especially for GPs). Much higher then anything I've seen/been offered in Canada. If you do things like locum/surgical assist and continue to live like a student it's very possible to pay off a huge portion of your loans while training in Oz, a feat virtually impossible to do while training in the US or Canada.

 

There is a debate re: length of Fam med residency in Canada vs. Oz (double the time) but there is a way around this depending on which province you want to return to. Sask and Newfoundland among others will allow you to call yourself a GP having done two years at the RMO level in Oz provided you complete certain rotations. You can have a look at their respective websites. Neither of these provinces required CFPC registration to have full practice rights there last I checked. Ontario or the other more populated provinces however do require CFPC registration for full practice rights, so you'd have to finish your full training in Oz before even thinking of returning there.

[leviathan]

Why is this the first I've heard of training in Singapore or NZ for Australian graduates? It sounds like everyone in Australia is pretty nervous right now with the impending 'tsunami' as they call it, and nobody has ever mentioned an alternative of working in those other countries. Can you post something to verify that?

 

The bottom line is that you want to go somewhere that gives you the best chances of getting a residency ANYWHERE. If you can't get a residency, then you wasted 4 years and 150-300k of money for nothing and your MD will be useless. I would find out whether you have a better chance of matching in Australia + NZ + Singapore + Canada if you went to an Australian school, versus matching in Canada + USA if you went to Saba. As for the match rates through CaRMS, Saba probably has similar match rates to any Australian school and possibly even better match rates, but it's hard to find out specific details to verify any of that.

[redshifteffect]

Why is this the first I've heard of training in Singapore or NZ for Australian graduates? It sounds like everyone in Australia is pretty nervous right now with the impending 'tsunami' as they call it, and nobody has ever mentioned an alternative of working in those other countries. Can you post something to verify that?

 

The bottom line is that you want to go somewhere that gives you the best chances of getting a residency ANYWHERE. If you can't get a residency, then you wasted 4 years and 150-300k of money for nothing and your MD will be useless. I would find out whether you have a better chance of matching in Australia + NZ + Singapore + Canada if you went to an Australian school, versus matching in Canada + USA if you went to Saba. As for the match rates through CaRMS, Saba probably has similar match rates to any Australian school and possibly even better match rates, but it's hard to find out specific details to verify any of that.

 

Why hasn't this been posted before? Simple most people on here are not even in medical school, let alone know how the Oceanic medical system works.

 

If you want more info you can find all you need via googling the Singapore Medical Council and the Medical council of NZ. They should be able to give you a start. Also check out the RCPA website, you'll see that training is done in several countries, and that all trainees get the same qualification. For GP check out the RACGP website and look up conjoint examination and specialist pathway. Finally contact the AMC and ask for "approved internships".

[nosuperman]

Why hasn't this been posted before? Simple most people on here are not even in medical school, let alone know how the Oceanic medical system works.

 

If you want more info you can find all you need via googling the Singapore Medical Council and the Medical council of NZ. They should be able to give you a start. Also check out the RCPA website, you'll see that training is done in several countries, and that all trainees get the same qualification. For GP check out the RACGP website and look up conjoint examination and specialist pathway. Finally contact the AMC and ask for "approved internships".

 

You're like the Buddha of worldwide medical accreditation

[leviathan]

Why hasn't this been posted before? Simple most people on here are not even in medical school, let alone know how the Oceanic medical system works.

 

If you want more info you can find all you need via googling the Singapore Medical Council and the Medical council of NZ. They should be able to give you a start. Also check out the RCPA website, you'll see that training is done in several countries, and that all trainees get the same qualification. For GP check out the RACGP website and look up conjoint examination and specialist pathway. Finally contact the AMC and ask for "approved internships".

Thanks for the info!. For anyone interested in applying I would make sure that Canadians have successfully taken this path before and that they have an ongoing positive track record/match rate. What is possible on paper doesn't necessarily translate to reality in every case.

[expo]

thanks for all the info !

i really appreciate it .

 

my question was more from a stand point of coming back to Canada. If my ultimate goal after going to med school abroad is to get a residency in Canada as an IMG.

Would going to an Australian school increase my chances of getting a residency in Canada over going to a Caribbean school? , assuming all other factors (i.e USMLE score and Electives and grades) are the same.

[Sarah_2020]

I have been going over residency matches in Canada and the States, and it is evident that it is very difficult for IMG to be matched into their first choice (near impossible if it is a very competitive residency). Apparently, there are many graduates that are unmatched and must wait a year before applying again. I am also considering going the international route but I know I am going to have to work my ass off to get the residency that I want (which is one of the less competitive ones anyway).

 

Also, There are higher percentages of US residency matched IMGs compared to Canada (stats show 20% versus 47%).

 

Thats what I researched so far.,.. best of luck

[leviathan]

thanks for all the info !

i really appreciate it .

 

my question was more from a stand point of coming back to Canada. If my ultimate goal after going to med school abroad is to get a residency in Canada as an IMG.

Would going to an Australian school increase my chances of getting a residency in Canada over going to a Caribbean school? , assuming all other factors (i.e USMLE score and Electives and grades) are the same.

 

If you go to Saba and probably also SGU, you'll have just as good a chance at matching into Canada as any Australian school. But that chance is still very low, like maybe 40%. And with the massive influx of Canadians who will be graduating in the next few years (myself included), that statistic might become much lower.

[icewine]

either route will entail a lot of work to get back to Canada so in that sense going to one school isn't necessarily "better" than the other. i've heard anecdotally that Aus/Irish grads are preferred but who the hell knows in reality. if you're looking for hard data to support one route over the other the best you'll get is the CaRMS data that breaks down the img match via geographical location. in the 2009 (http://carms.ca/pdfs/2009R1_MatchResults/42MatchReport_E.pdf) and 2010 (http://carms.ca/pdfs/2010R1_MatchResults/IMGs%20by%20Region_1stand2nd%20Iteration_en.pdf) matches Oceania/Pacific Islands matched 43/72 applicants (roughly 60%) whereas Central America/Caribbean matched 141/450 applicants (roughly 31%). This data is of limited use though as it doesn't specify country/school of graduation but AFAIK it's the only official data from CaRMS on the subject so interpret the data as you'd like. i'm currently a student at Flinders and unofficially/anecdotally i can tell you that Canadians studying here who want to go home do pretty well in the match; over the past 3 matches (2008-2010) i have only heard of 1 applicant going unmatched (out of about 17 or so grads).

 

if you're looking to maximize your chances of getting a training position anywhere (Canada or abroad) then it's a different story. IMO going to an Aussie school is your best bet. you can apply back home through CaRMS, write the Steps and apply to the States, or apply for internship in Oz. the likelihood of attaining a spot post-2012 is (endlessly) debatable, though - do a search here or on SDN. i'm of the opinion that it will be possible but others will disagree. and as mentioned above it's possible to do internship in Singapore or NZ, a route many of my colleagues (especially the Singaporeans/Kiwis) will be no doubt pursuing. also, as mentioned above, the College of Family Physicians of Canada now recognizes the FRACGP as equivalent to the CCFP (along with the ABFM), meaning that if you qualify as a GP in Oz or the States then you can work as a family doc back home without having to write the CCFP exam (http://www.cfpc.ca/English/cfpc/education/examinations/EQUIVALENT%20TRAINING/default.asp?s=1).

[redshifteffect]

thanks for all the info !

i really appreciate it .

 

my question was more from a stand point of coming back to Canada. If my ultimate goal after going to med school abroad is to get a residency in Canada as an IMG.

Would going to an Australian school increase my chances of getting a residency in Canada over going to a Caribbean school? , assuming all other factors (i.e USMLE score and Electives and grades) are the same.

 

I think that this is a very narrow focus. If you're willing to invest 200k to study abroad I would perhaps widen your focus a bit more and try for a goal of eventually returning to Canada, and not just getting a match in Canada.

 

What the CaRMs statistics don't tell you is that of the 70+ that are tracked people who don't get an interview or who drop out of the process prior to the match are not counted. There are many more then 70+ Canadians in Oz, and it makes you wonder why many of them don't even bother to apply to CaRMs (or can't even get an interview with CaRMs).

 

So if you are looking at only aiming for a match in Canada I don't think either option will give you a much better chance then flipping a coin. I'd perhaps either widen my goals or just try and get into medical school in Canada.

[redshifteffect]

also, as mentioned above, the College of Family Physicians of Canada now recognizes the FRACGP as equivalent to the CCFP (along with the ABFM), meaning that if you qualify as a GP in Oz or the States then you can work as a family doc back home without having to write the CCFP exam (http://www.cfpc.ca/English/cfpc/education/examinations/EQUIVALENT%20TRAINING/default.asp?s=1).

 

Exactly, and since this is the case I don't see what the point of even trying for a CaRMs family medical spot is.

 

Pros of FRACGP

- Recognised in Canada

- Double the pay or more as a registrar

- RRIPS or it's replacement for extra money

- Ability to locum/surgical assist and have it COUNT as part of your training ($120-$150/hr + $2000-$5000/ day surgical assisting)

- Australian PR + eventually citizenship

- No return of service when you do eventually return to Canada

- Much higher pay as a GP in Oz vs. Canada so you can work here as a locum during your "holidays" from Canada or for a few years after finishing to pay off loans

- Much better and structured training program - remember you will be a Gp for hopefully 30+ years, an extra year or two of good solid experience will help to avoid lawsuits in the future

- Cheap 3rd party medical liability insurance in addition to free hospital cover (free for most of your training, $100-$200 for the remaining year)

- ability to swap registrar positions should you decide you don't like Gp fairly easily

- Ability to work in NZ or Singapore or some Asian countries as part of your training

- Better weather/lifestyle

- No return of Service should you return to Canada saving you upto 5 years in the cold Canadian hinterland

- Very easy to get into

- No written exam required just an interview

- Allows you to bypass the MCCEE

- 40 hours a week, with some practices only requiring 4 days/week of work, no after hours unless working in remote practices

- Hospital + Practiced based training allowing easier transition into true Gp work

- Ability to subspecialise while training in surgical derm, surgical proceduralist (scopes etc.), O+G, Paeds, Pall care, Anaesthetics and a bunch other GP specialist options

- Depending on RTP, subsidized living expenses in addition to RRIPS including relocation, rental assistance, communication ($4000/yr + moving expenses)

- Depending on location free flights to capital city in that state upto 6 times per year

- Depending on RTP free APLS, Family planning, Westmead Childhood health diploma and ALS courses (over $10g worth of courses)

- Depending on hospital free or rent subsidised

 

Cons

- Longer then CCFP

- Rural for former international students (but some locations can be within 30 mins of a large city)

 

CCFP Pros

- Short duration

 

CCFP Cons

- Hard to get into

- Require at least one written exam (EE) + Marks while in medschool + interview

- Very high probability of being rural

- Return of Service varies by province from 2-5 years (with little choice in some areas of where it must be done!)

- Low pay + after hours (unpaid)

- Purely hospital term, so you have no scope of what it's like to work in an actual practice, therefore aren't trained in billing and business aspects

- No locuming opportunities while training

[expo]

so let me see if im getting all this right...

 

chances of getting a residency as an IMG as of right now are higher for Australian grads than Caribbean grads when coming back to Canada ( but it can change with the large influx of graduates in the next few years).

 

and if you complete your residency as a GP in either Oz or the US then it is considered equivalent to a residency in Canada.

 

so my question is about graduating from a Caribbean school, how likely is it to be able to get a residency spot in the US (for a GP) , so that upon completion you would be able to return to Canada?

 

and also on the same note, does anyone know how difficult it is to get a visa to work in the States once you have graduated from a Caribbean med school? (for the duration of residency)

[leviathan]

so let me see if im getting all this right...

 

chances of getting a residency as an IMG as of right now are higher for Australian grads than Caribbean grads when coming back to Canada ( but it can change with the large influx of graduates in the next few years).

 

and if you complete your residency as a GP in either Oz or the US then it is considered equivalent to a residency in Canada.

 

so my question is about graduating from a Caribbean school, how likely is it to be able to get a residency spot in the US (for a GP) , so that upon completion you would be able to return to Canada?

 

and also on the same note, does anyone know how difficult it is to get a visa to work in the States once you have graduated from a Caribbean med school? (for the duration of residency)

As I said the chances are not higher for Australian grads if you compare it to a reputable Caribbean school, specifically the ones where high numbers of Canadians have matched in Canada, as these are schools program directors are familiar with and trust. Ultimately the most important factor is not what school you went to, but how well you do on your rotations, and how many rotations you are able to do in Canada.

 

Right now the match rate in the US from the top Caribbean schools is 90%. If you're applying to family med only it's basically 100%. The 10% who don't match are the ones who do dumb things like only apply to competitive specialties with no backup plan. A guy from my school only applied to anesthesiology and general surgery, and got about 15 interviews. He turned down all but 3 or 4 interviews (all for anes), ranked only a few of them, and then he didn't match and had to scramble in the second round for a spot. He still ended up getting a gen surg spot at the Mayo Clinic in the second round, but it could have easily gone bad for him.

 

But like I said for the umpteenth time, nobody knows what's going to happen for people in the future if you want to match in the US, especially without US citizenship. It's a pretty risky game....even now, I'm worried about what the climate will be like when I'm entering the match in 2 years, and most speculation says it's going to get only worse.

[icewine]

just a few comments re: FRACGP vs. CCFP

 

Pros of FRACGP

- No return of Service should you return to Canada saving you upto 5 years in the cold Canadian hinterland

if i'm not mistaken, as non-citizen/non-PR grads who obtain PR via internship we would be limited to the rural pathway for GP training. so it's similar to the Canadian ROS in that we're limited geographically, only in this case it's where we train vs. where we end up practicing.

 

CCFP Cons

- Return of Service varies by province from 2-5 years (with little choice in some areas of where it must be done!)

in Ontario, at least, the geographic area where service can be returned was recently changed to encompass any region outside Ottawa and the Toronto area (defined as the City of Toronto, as well as Mississauga, Brampton, Vaughan, Markham, and Pickering) (http://www.health.gov.on.ca/english/providers/program/uap/uap_hfo_ros.html). also, AFAIK other than the geographic restriction it is entirely up to the physician which community to return service in, as long as there is a job available. so international grads could potentially return service in Richmond Hill or Milton, two areas fairly close to downtown Toronto (within an hour's drive). true, the Ontario ROS is 5 years long but currently it is not as restrictive as compared to past years.

 

edit: just saw that you had posted rural GP training for former internationals under FRACGP con. my bad.

[redshifteffect]

just a few comments re: FRACGP vs. CCFP

 

 

if i'm not mistaken, as non-citizen/non-PR grads who obtain PR via internship we would be limited to the rural pathway for GP training. so it's similar to the Canadian ROS in that we're limited geographically, only in this case it's where we train vs. where we end up practicing.

 

 

Yes, this is a disadvantage, but as I said is outweighed by a few factors:

1. Rural areas at least by the governments new classification system can be located only 30mins from a major population centre. So should you want to continue to live in the city you can continue to commute to your placement, especially when it's 9-5 and in some cases 4 days a week.

 

2. You are still given all the rural benefits (including financial incentives) that an Australian PR/Citizen would be, even if you are not an Australian PR/Citizen while in the GP training program.

 

3. There are not even any extra government financial incentives to working rurally as a GP in Ontario. In fact you may end up having to do hospital on calls depending on where in the province you end up.

 

in Ontario, at least, the geographic area where service can be returned was recently changed to encompass any region outside Ottawa and the Toronto area (defined as the City of Toronto, as well as Mississauga, Brampton, Vaughan, Markham, and Pickering) (http://www.health.gov.on.ca/english/providers/program/uap/uap_hfo_ros.html). also, AFAIK other than the geographic restriction it is entirely up to the physician which community to return service in, as long as there is a job available. so international grads could potentially return service in Richmond Hill or Milton, two areas fairly close to downtown Toronto (within an hour's drive). true, the Ontario ROS is 5 years long but currently it is not as restrictive as compared to past years.

 

 

Although I was aware of this I didn't bring it up because at this stage (according to my source in Healthforce Ontario) this rule can be changed at any time. So while it might be great for people who are looking at returning this year, there is no guarantee that it will still be around in a couple of years time.

 

The reason that it may be revoked is that if they find they still can't get GPs to rural areas, they will have to force them out with the RoS. Right now there's a drastic enough shortage of GPs even in parts of the GTA that they can afford to let people set up shop wherever, but should this change you can bet this rule will be revoked. At least with having completed your training outside, they have no way of forcing you to do a RoS, because they have not paid a dime towards your training.

 

Also on the lastest GP LADAU list I can only see York region for the GTA:

http://www.health.gov.on.ca/english/providers/program/uap/listof_areas/gp_ladau.pdf