Mac or UWO

[drakee]

Hi,

 

Long time reader, second time poster. So, it appears that beggars can be choosers and after 2 weeks of waiting I've received offers of admission to both UWO and Mac. So now comes the deliberation that I thought I didn't have to worry about. In considering my decision, I hope that some of you can offer me some insight with regards to the following at each school.

 

1) Academic evaluation/grades system

2) Placement competitiveness/preparation

3) Faculty support/resources

4) Class camaraderie

 

Any other opinions that you may have about each school would also be appreciated. Thanks!

[Guest postman]

Hi,

 

Long time reader, second time poster. So, it appears that beggars can be choosers and after 2 weeks of waiting I've received offers of admission to both UWO and Mac. So now comes the deliberation that I thought I didn't have to worry about. In considering my decision, I hope that some of you can offer me some insight with regards to the following at each school.

 

1) Academic evaluation/grades system

2) Placement competitiveness/preparation

3) Faculty support/resources

4) Class camaraderie

 

Any other opinions that you may have about each school would also be appreciated. Thanks!

 

Where do you live? Mac is a whole academic year shorter.

[drakee]

I live in Toronto, but location is probably not going to be a factor for me.

[Byrne]

This thread should provide some insight on UWO: http://premed101.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40451

 

Congrats on your offers!

[BigM]

Clearly UWO > Mac, do you even need to ask?

 

*Bias disclosure: please see my signature for further details*

[dr_horrible]

Agree on all accounts, including the bias.

 

Clearly UWO > Mac, do you even need to ask?

 

*Bias disclosure: please see my signature for further details*

[nemesis]

All four of the replies have been people who have accepted their offer from Western or those still waiting for a call from the Western waitlist!

 

OP, I replied to your PM.

[meds2014]

This thread should provide some insight on UWO: http://premed101.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40451

 

Congrats on your offers!

 

you may need to PM wuckfestern to get another perspective, lol

[Sarah_2020]

I would have to say Mcmaster for sure...for a number of reasons (in my opinion) including:

 

Location (you said you live in T.O)

It is only THREE years (very nice)

You get a lot more hands on experience and get thrown into it all during first year.

 

I think the main selling point is the three year option...you should make a pro/cons list for both schools... it might help...good luck

[supafield]

As someone that didn't interview at either... Western would have been my first choice....

 

More spaced out over the 4 years. You get to keep your summers and do whatever you'd like during them whether it's medically related or not.

 

and the clerkship is really well set up to have a very informed opinion of what you want to pick for carms and to study for exams.

 

However, if you already have a good idea of what you're interested in, and are interested in finishing quicker Mac may really appeal to you.

 

The area around McMaster is very nice, but Hamilton's downtown leaves something to be desired. The area around Western is very student-y and provides a really good social scene. London as a whole turns off a lot of culturally spoiled Toronto born people that are used to every street being filled with top notch sushi and indian restaurants. There are good restaurants/markets and that kind of stuff in London, you just have to search them out a lot more carefully than you would in Toronto.

 

I think location would have to play somewhat of a part in the decision. London is a 2 hour drive to Toronto, Hamilton is 1. With Hamilton, you can take the 407 all the way, or you can jump on the go train to get home. London is a 2 hour car or via or slightly longer by greyhound. So I think in terms of proximity and access to stuff going on in Toronto... Hamilton is the clear winner.

 

Just some thoughts.... the 3 yr vs. 4 yr program is a big difference, and I think the cities and their locations are too. Which one suits you as a person better?

[runningdoc]

Not to dispute too much but if you get the express Greyhounds, even leaving during "rush hour" I have been able to get to Toronto from London in closer to an hour and half. And given the ever increasing speed of driving on the 401, it too is more like a 2 hour drive is a "worst case" especially if you are smart about when you make the trip.

 

For me, I'm a little biased given that I will attending Schulich, but at the same time, I always preferred Western. I don't like the idea of a 3-year program. I think there is enough to learn that it doesn't need to be crammed into 3-years, and I would rather get into the hospitals through shadowing in my early years while I build up my knowledge. For others, they would rather just get in there as soon as possible. I like the idea of being able to work on clinical research projects over summers/through the year that Western will allow me, at least during the first few years before things become incredibly busy.

[nemesis]

Check my reply!

[Medgirl123]

Hi,

 

Long time reader, second time poster. So, it appears that beggars can be choosers and after 2 weeks of waiting I've received offers of admission to both UWO and Mac. So now comes the deliberation that I thought I didn't have to worry about. In considering my decision, I hope that some of you can offer me some insight with regards to the following at each school.

 

1) Academic evaluation/grades system

2) Placement competitiveness/preparation

3) Faculty support/resources

4) Class camaraderie

 

Any other opinions that you may have about each school would also be appreciated. Thanks!

 

I've heard great things about Mac, and since it's a year shorter that's where i'd go

[nemesis]

...Western waitlister?

 

I've heard great things about Mac, and since it's a year shorter that's where i'd go

[Medgirl123]

...Western waitlister?

 

First year University , friend is waitlisted at Queens and Western, so it might have had some bias

[sfinch]

Well, it is difficult to decide which is better.

 

UWO - great curriculum, students do very well knowledge wise coming out

- fun city (despite my initial horrible misgivings)

 

McMAster - a year shorter

- close to toronto

 

However, and I know this is controversial, but McMaster grads have had problems with doing well on the national board exams - some years having over 10 fail while other schools had 0-2. USMLE failures, admittedly not confirmed but from stories I know, seem to be higher from MAC grads. IT does make sense - few structured lectures, no prereq requirements, and no formal marks/exams (though MAC does have exams, despite what they say). One program director I talked to when I was doing an observorship said MAC grads come in a step behind grads from other medical schools, but usually catch up within a year.

 

If you want a more "REAL" solid medical education, of course UWO is the place to go. If you want to feel 'INNOVATIVE' and be done quickly (but really do almost all the work yourself), go to McMaster.

[deeman101]

I mostly agree with sfinch. Before invites were sent out I was really only deciding on which would be my #1, uwo or mac. After May13th the choice was kinda made for me (low priority waitlist at uwo). Its really hard to weigh pros and cons that are not directly comparable between the schools. IMO there is no clear choice for anyone and everyone.

[lbj23jk]

One program director I talked to when I was doing an observorship said MAC grads come in a step behind grads from other medical schools, but usually catch up within a year.

 

Is it just me or that could have been a compliment of the Mac program as much as a diss, depends on how you look at it. if graduates from the school are able to catch up to other graduates within a year, they are eventually at an even level when Mac graduates are still in their 4th year since being admitted to med, while others are in the 5th. Except Mac’s 4th year are spent in residency without the heavy burden of one extra year of tuition, if financing the education is an aspect of your consideration at all.

 

Look, my point is, and if I can be blunt, I think it is actually quite arrogant of some to question a med program’s curriculum given the program has continued to graduate accomplished, qualified people year after year, and who eventually become reliable, successful doctors. Back to the question, I truthfully believe each program has its own uniqueness, just because they are not carbon copied the same, doesn’t mean one is better than the other. As much as you hate to think, more practical factors such as whether you want to be further away from home or closer, money, should probably be taken into more serious consideration.

 

Given you have reached this far, as long as you continue putting in the effort, in whichever program you choose, to learn, to hone your craft so-to speak, and to not lose sense of who you are or what makes of a decent, compassionate person, you’ll be fine, and your patients will be in reliable hands.

[discworldheavylight]

Is it just me or that could have been a compliment of the Mac program as much as a diss, depends on how you look at it. if graduates from the school are able to catch up to other graduates within a year, they are eventually at an even level when Mac graduates are still in their 4th year since being admitted to med, while others are in the 5th. Except Mac’s 4th year are spent in residency without the heavy burden of one extra year of tuition, if financing the education is an aspect of your consideration at all.

 

Look, my point is, and if I can be blunt, I think it is actually quite arrogant of some to question a med program’s curriculum given the program has continued to graduate accomplished, qualified people year after year, and who eventually become reliable, successful doctors. Back to the question, I truthfully believe each program has its own uniqueness, just because they are not carbon copied the same, doesn’t mean one is better than the other. As much as you hate to think, more practical factors such as whether you want to be further away from home or closer, money, should probably be taken into more serious consideration.

 

Given you have reached this far, as long as you continue putting in the effort, in whichever program you choose, to learn, to hone your craft so-to speak, and to not lose sense of who you are or what makes of a decent, compassionate person, you’ll be fine, and your patients will be in reliable hands.

 

+1

 

great post. welcome to the forum.

[medicant]

Is it just me or that could have been a compliment of the Mac program as much as a diss, depends on how you look at it. if graduates from the school are able to catch up to other graduates within a year, they are eventually at an even level when Mac graduates are still in their 4th year since being admitted to med, while others are in the 5th. Except Mac’s 4th year are spent in residency without the heavy burden of one extra year of tuition, if financing the education is an aspect of your consideration at all.

 

Look, my point is, and if I can be blunt, I think it is actually quite arrogant of some to question a med program’s curriculum given the program has continued to graduate accomplished, qualified people year after year, and who eventually become reliable, successful doctors. Back to the question, I truthfully believe each program has its own uniqueness, just because they are not carbon copied the same, doesn’t mean one is better than the other. As much as you hate to think, more practical factors such as whether you want to be further away from home or closer, money, should probably be taken into more serious consideration.

 

Given you have reached this far, as long as you continue putting in the effort, in whichever program you choose, to learn, to hone your craft so-to speak, and to not lose sense of who you are or what makes of a decent, compassionate person, you’ll be fine, and your patients will be in reliable hands.

 

what is actually arrogant is believing anything to be beyond question or reproach.

[BigM]

If I were you, I would check out the CaRMS match results. Western matched the fewest number of people to family medicine across all of Canada (and the highest number to IM). Mac, Ottawa, and NOSM matched the highest in FM in Ontario.

So, if you're into FM, go to Mac. If you're into IM or specialties, go to Western.

 

CaRMS results change year to year and the truth is all Ontario schools do fairly well. Mac and UWO are very different in curriculum. You should be able to read about both programs and decide where you feel you would fit in better. Personally I wasn't offered an interview at Mac but it was my lowest preference school. I do not feel rushed to get through meds (the one year isn't significant to me and I would actually prefer the extra time) and I rely heavily on structure. As other people have pointed out, Mac is pretty ground-breaking and independent... doesn't reflect my style.

[lostintime]

Mac would've been a bad idea for people like me who have poor self-discipline and need tests and structure to push me to study. Teaching at UWO is generally pretty good, minus some rare exceptions.

[nemesis]

So, if you're into FM, go to Mac. If you're into IM or specialties, go to Western.

 

[mizz.lee]

Don't forget about learning style! If you like self-directed learning and are capable of keeping yourself motivated and choosing your own path through school, Mac will work out fine. If not, maybe you should think about Western as it will give you a better chance of success.

 

To people who keep harping on the 3 years thing - Mac grads have the same number of preclerkship months and comparable class hours to every other school in Ontario! Working straight through the summer means less time wasted relearning material and getting into gear in the fall, and extra months to complete the coursework in less time. Mac wasn't just given a pass to cut a year out of medical education.

 

Also, I think sfinch's information might not be coming from a reputable source. In preparation for my interviews I read every article that has been published in a reputable journal on Mac's program. One of the issues explored was performance on the licensing exam - and there has been no significant discrepancy in the proportion of passing students in many years. Mac grads also perform well during their residencies, so I find it doubtful that going to Mac automatically means you are underprepared for a career in medicine. Even the matching info seems a bit biased - Mac was just under the provincial average in matches to first choice placement, and just over the provincial average in matches to first choice specialty. If more Mac grads chose family, that doesn't mean you will have a harder time getting into IM. I'm hoping to get into geriatrics (via IM, not family), and I think Mac is a great choice for its focus on clinical problem solving and developing patient interaction skills.

 

The difference in character and style between the two schools is huge, and one of them should speak to you, OP. If you are still having trouble deciding, look up what each of them have published about their curriculum - I know at least Mac has very extensively explored the types of weaknesses their curriculum has and what can/has been done to address them. Has Western done that?

 

umm...my bias? check the signature - lol

[TheFonz]

Also, I think sfinch's information might not be coming from a reputable source. In preparation for my interviews I read every article that has been published in a reputable journal on Mac's program. One of the issues explored was performance on the licensing exam - and there has been no significant discrepancy in the proportion of passing students in many years.

 

To be fair to sfinch, I actually heard similar things about Mac med students from two different PDs that I met as a volunteer at a major Toronto hospital. They always used to discourage me from Mac med, saying that the students they met on electives were "behind" those from other Ontario schools (namely Toronto, UWO and Queen's). At the same time, they're U of T faculty and docs, so they may be biased in their opinions.

 

When I interviewed at Mac though, I fell in love with the school. It really is an AMAZING medical school, and the people I know that have graduated from Mac have been beyond competent doctors. They (or their classmates) have also gone onto kick-ass residencies, so I doubt going to Mac has hindered anyone's medical development. It was one of my top 3 choices, and I was ultimately waitlisted, so I didn't even have the option in the end. Lots of people I met on the interview trail had written off Mac, basically dismissing the school because of things they had heard. At the end of the day though, the whole thing is very individualized. Lots of docs and students I know disparage Mac at every turn. Do I agree? No, my experiences were pretty positive, and I would have been very proud to go to Mac. Doesn't mean it's the medical school for everyone, and it also doesn't mean that going there will make you any less of a doctor.