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Whats better? Caribbean or Ireland/Australia?


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I have never actually done research on other international med schools except the Caribbean. Until recently it didn't seem like a popular route.....

 

I'm just wondering if someone can explain to me why you could go to Australia/Ireland and get a MBBS when you can go to Caribbean and get a MD? Obviously I know there are other differences, but I'm thinking that would be one less thing you would need to defend when you end up back in Canada/US.

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common misconception. MBBS from Australia/Ireland is equivalent to MD. The only difference are the two letters at the end. "Functionally" they are identical degrees. And now with Ireland/Aus putting more emphasis on graduate entry programs, you'll be "equivalent" in terms of how much schooling you have done too. Historically these schools have routes where you would graduate high school and enter medical school (still common in the UK and India) so students would finish high school and enter a 6 year programme meaning that compared to their North American counterparts, they had an MBBS after only 6 years post secondary education versus a North American having an MD after 8 years (assuming traditional route) education.

 

I put equivalent in italics because as far as CaRMS is concerned, someone who graduate from a foreign (ie. not american or canadian) medical school is not the same as someone who graduate from a med school in north america. At least that is what I have interpreted it is :P

 

In terms of "defending" or "backing up" when you get to US/Canada there isn't much to say. If you rock your licensing scores and get into a residency with another domestic graduate, you're the same again. Prove yourself in your residency and no one can say anything to you. Many well respected physicians and Canada and the US (some of whom I have worked with) graduated from foreign schools. However, they came to practice a long time ago, so times were different by way of licensing requirements, etc.

 

[edit] oh yeah, the MD from Melbourne in my opinion is bull. I personally think it was their way of justifying increasing tuition by almost 15k. Just because it is now exclusively graduate entry doesn't mean that the degree is better...its kind of a slap in the face for any doctors that graduated from Melbourne prior to the degree...so basically every physician that graduate from melbourne prior to last year. That being said, if I got accepted I'd have no problems matriculating :D

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I have never actually done research on other international med schools except the Caribbean. Until recently it didn't seem like a popular route.....

 

I'm just wondering if someone can explain to me why you could go to Australia/Ireland and get a MBBS when you can go to Caribbean and get a MD? Obviously I know there are other differences, but I'm thinking that would be one less thing you would need to defend when you end up back in Canada/US.

 

Dude MD=MBBS. The true question is why someone would go all the way to Australia when they can just go the carribeans.

 

Peace

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Historically these schools have routes where you would graduate high school and enter medical school (still common in the UK and India) so students would finish high school and enter a 6 year programme meaning that compared to their North American counterparts, they had an MBBS after only 6 years post secondary education versus a North American having an MD after 8 years (assuming traditional route) education.

 

In Quebec you can get into an MD program after only ''1 year of university'' (ie cegep). This MD is still equivalent to any MD in the rest of Canada or in the USA.

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Simple answer. Ireland has a 67% match rate back into canada, with reputations equal to the north American ones if not better (look up Trinity in Dublin). Whereas Caribbean schools have only about 20% (maybe 25-30% for the top 4) match rates back to Canada. And who wants to live with a degree that is not internationally recognized their whole life (specially if you have options to work outside Canada...the world doesnt revolve around north america only).

If you cannot come back to Canada, or the US , as it is getting tougher to get back to as an IMG, then you cannot get a residency in the Caribs...but there is a possibility to get one in Ireland.

 

Also when talking about Ireland, you cannot have the "going ALL THE WAY TO" disadvantage...its about the same distance away as carib schools to most People if not closer.

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For matching to a residency, based on past statistics, Australia/Ireland graduates fair better than Caribbean. Working in Australia/Ireland (in the case that you don't match) is a pretty good gig as well.

 

That being said, the Caribbean does prepare you for a US residency more than Australia/Ireland, and some US doctors (after completing residency) can come back to Canada with little to no hassle... which might be more of a certainty than matching... but who's really to say? You'd still need to match in the US and then do what you have to in order to return to Canada which obviously involves tons of uncertainty and chance.

 

Personally I'm ranking Australia/Ireland over the Caribbean just based on my exposure to their curriculums (I feel they're more similar to Canadian schools) and their staff and students.

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The question is, if the match rate is 67%, what are the other 1/3 doing who don't match in Canada? I thought you can't do residency in the UK or Ireland unless you're a Euro citizen. Australia appears to be no longer an option either.

 

Australia would be difficult but there's always Singapore or NEw Zealand both of which treat Australian grads as locals when it comes to jobs.

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I have never actually done research on other international med schools except the Caribbean. Until recently it didn't seem like a popular route.....

 

I'm just wondering if someone can explain to me why you could go to Australia/Ireland and get a MBBS when you can go to Caribbean and get a MD? Obviously I know there are other differences, but I'm thinking that would be one less thing you would need to defend when you end up back in Canada/US.

 

You have not considered a much better route. How about Osteopathic medical schools in the USA? If you get into one of those, you'll be considered an American medical graduate, and you'll have an advanced US medical degree. Don't you think that would beat all the Caribbean/Ireland/Australian options where you'll always be labeled as an IMG?

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You have not considered a much better route. How about Osteopathic medical schools in the USA? If you get into one of those, you'll be considered an American medical graduate, and you'll have an advanced US medical degree. Don't you think that would beat all the Caribbean/Ireland/Australian options where you'll always be labeled as an IMG?

 

Though I love Canada, I don't have any great need to come back.... and i'm one of those people who want to have a MD as opposed to the DO degree. So I thought that going to SGU or Ross would allow me to at least stay in the US with little problems.

 

(I hope i'm not opening myself up to massive amounts of arguments, as I said, I haven't done much research on DO or other international schools outside of the Caribbean).

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Though I love Canada, I don't have any great need to come back.... and i'm one of those people who want to have a MD as opposed to the DO degree. So I thought that going to SGU or Ross would allow me to at least stay in the US with little problems.

 

(I hope i'm not opening myself up to massive amounts of arguments, as I said, I haven't done much research on DO or other international schools outside of the Caribbean).

 

Well, do you understand the visa issue? H1B vs J1?

 

If you want to stay in the US afterwards, how can you say that going to SGU or Ross and becoming an foreign IMG in the US is better than becoming an AMG from a DO school when you haven't researched the latter?

 

Have a look at this link here: the NRMP matchlist for 2010: http://www.nrmp.org/data/advancedatatables2010.pdf. Scroll down to the part where they mention the match rate for Osteopathic medical students to ACGME (MD) residencies compared to Canadian MDs, IMG MDs with US citizenship, and IMG MDs without US citizenship: if you don't believe what I say, at least believe in these numbers:

 

Students/Graduates of Osteopathic Medical Schools

- Active Applicants 2,045 applicants

- Matched PGY-1 1,444 (applicants) 70.6% successful match

- Unmatched PGY-1 601 (applicants) 29.4% unmatched

 

Students/Graduates of Canadian Medical Schools

- Active Applicants 24 applicants

- Matched PGY-1 18 applicants 75.0% successful match

- Unmatched PGY-1 6 applicants 25.0% unmatched

 

Notice how Osteopathic students have almost as good a chance of matching into ACGME (MD) residencies in the USA as Canadian MD students.

 

Now look at this:

 

U.S. Citizen Students/Graduates of International Medical Schools

- Active Applicants 3,695 applicants

- Matched PGY-1 1,749 applicants 47.3% successful match

- Unmatched PGY-1 1,946 applicants 52.7% unmatched

 

Non-U.S. Citizen Students/Graduates of International Medical Schools

- Active Applicants 7,246 applicants

- Matched PGY-1 2,881 applicants 39.8% successful match

- Unmatched PGY-1 4,365 applicants 60.2% unmatched

 

Soo, foreign IMGs, (read Canadians who went to the Caribbean/Ireland/Australia) had only a 40% chance of getting into an ACGME residency, where as 70% of DOs got into ACGME residencies, not to mention the AOA accredited DO residencies which will no doubt take up all or most of the DO stragglers who were not accepted into MD residencies.

 

You'll get that MD for sure if you go Carbbean, but are you willing to pay the exact same tuition as DO school, get only a 40% MD residency match rate (as opposed to 70%), get labelled as an IMG all throughout your medical school and residency, ALL FOR THOSE 2 DAMNED MD LETTERS? Do you think that it's worth it? If you do, by all means, go for it :)

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I know a lot of people who have gone through SGU and Ross, and are in residency in the US now. I can't really see myself in a highly competitive field....I have always been interested in psychiatryl, and now pediatrics after working in a pediatric office. Luckily those are one of the core residencies, so it shouldn't be terribly impossible to get into those residencies.

 

I will still research in the DO field...but I also heard if you go to an international school, you have the option of applying in first year to a Canadian med school, which I don't think is possible in an American Osteo school.

 

The thing is my cGPA is 3.75 and sGPA is 3.7. My ECS are up to par (focusing heavily on leadership).....my only problem is this stupid MCAT!

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I know a lot of people who have gone through SGU and Ross, and are in residency in the US now. I can't really see myself in a highly competitive field....I have always been interested in psychiatryl, and now pediatrics after working in a pediatric office. Luckily those are one of the core residencies, so it shouldn't be terribly impossible to get into those residencies.

 

I will still research in the DO field...but I also heard if you go to an international school, you have the option of applying in first year to a Canadian med school, which I don't think is possible in an American Osteo school.

 

The thing is my cGPA is 3.75 and sGPA is 3.7. My ECS are up to par (focusing heavily on leadership).....my only problem is this stupid MCAT!

 

Ya, I'm glad you'll do some research into DOs. The point of my previous post is to keep an open mind, research into ALL possibilities, don't just close the door on an opportunity simply because you don't know what a DO is, or you only (blindly?) want the MD title, even if getting the MD might cost you compared to a DO. What you say about US DO schools is false. You CAN apply to MD schools (both US/Canadian) in your first year in a DO school, but if you did get accepted into a MD school, you'd have to restart first year, since your one year in the DO school will NOT be transferable to the MD school. DocBill did exactly this, he initially got into DO school, but I guess he wanted that MD badly enough, so he reapplied all over again, then got into a MD/PhD. You can read up on him here: http://www.premed101.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16718. In my opinion, it's not worth it to transfer after 1 year in a DO school. Do you really want that MD THAT badly? Is it really worth it to go through all the application process again, while juggling first year medical school?

 

Also, I wrote extensively about DOs, and DOs vs IMG MDs, etc, you can read up on my post here: http://www.premed101.com/forums/showthread.php?t=42401. It's a start on your DO research, it's got some fairly good tips in it.

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I know a lot of people who have gone through SGU and Ross, and are in residency in the US now. I can't really see myself in a highly competitive field....I have always been interested in psychiatryl, and now pediatrics after working in a pediatric office. Luckily those are one of the core residencies, so it shouldn't be terribly impossible to get into those residencies.

 

I will still research in the DO field...but I also heard if you go to an international school, you have the option of applying in first year to a Canadian med school, which I don't think is possible in an American Osteo school.

 

The thing is my cGPA is 3.75 and sGPA is 3.7. My ECS are up to par (focusing heavily on leadership).....my only problem is this stupid MCAT!

 

For now, I'd say basically 100% of all Canadians who attend the GOOD Caribbean schools are matching if they only want Family Med. That number may drop over the next few years as the leftover spots start to dwindle and even family med becomes competitive for FMGs. I feel like a broken record as I've said that in many threads on this forum, but it seems people aren't aware of this fact. If you go to a DO school, you won't be considered as an IMG (read: dirt) when you apply, so you won't have to worry about matching after. Also coming from a Caribbean school you will have to not only pass the Step 1 and 2 licensing exams, but you will have to outperform your US counterparts to prove your worth. If you have trouble with standardized exams like the MCAT, that should be a potential red flag in your mind that you will also have trouble with Step 1. Just some things to think about...

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Now look at this:

 

U.S. Citizen Students/Graduates of International Medical Schools

- Active Applicants 3,695 applicants

- Matched PGY-1 1,749 applicants 47.3% successful match

- Unmatched PGY-1 1,946 applicants 52.7% unmatched

 

Non-U.S. Citizen Students/Graduates of International Medical Schools

- Active Applicants 7,246 applicants

- Matched PGY-1 2,881 applicants 39.8% successful match

- Unmatched PGY-1 4,365 applicants 60.2% unmatched

 

Soo, foreign IMGs, (read Canadians who went to the Caribbean/Ireland/Australia) had only a 40% chance of getting into an ACGME residency, where as 70% of DOs got into ACGME residencies, not to mention the AOA accredited DO residencies which will no doubt take up all or most of the DO stragglers who were not accepted into MD residencies.

 

 

Keep in mind the 39.8% figure is for all international schools in the world combined. There is considerable variation from school to school. Also, many people from caribbean schools (and other international schools) accept pre-matches instead of going through the match process which is not included in the 39.8% figure. If you go to one of the big 4 caribbean schools and you pass the boards and are not picky about which residency you want, you are essentially guaranteed to match in the US.

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Keep in mind the 39.8% figure is for all international schools in the world combined. There is considerable variation from school to school. Also, many people from caribbean schools (and other international schools) accept pre-matches instead of going through the match process which is not included in the 39.8% figure. If you go to one of the big 4 caribbean schools and you pass the boards and are not picky about which residency you want, you are essentially guaranteed to match in the US.

 

Then there's the occasional few Canadians that I know and have heard about that failed out, couldn't get into any residencies, failed the step 1 multiple times, or better yet, gave up after 4 years of SGU, and is now pursuing a masters degree in Toronto... Something useful I've picked up along the years: you are the RULE, NOT the exception. People always get it backwards, thinking that they are the exception, but not the rule. This mode of thinking is what leads you to disaster. Personally, I didn't even want to be categorized under that 40% match category along with all the other IMGs. Because to the Americans, THAT is what you are, no one cares if you are a Canadian. You'll be in the same footing as an Pakistani, or Indian med graduate trying to get into a residency in the US. Do you think they'll show you leniency simply because you are Canadian? You are just another foreigner to them! If you think you'd get it easier as a Canadian, you are dreaming.

 

IMGs with American citizenship only had a 47% chance of matching to ACGME residencies. How much better can the prospects be for a Canadian, compared to an American? In the Caribbean schools, NOTHING is guaranteed. It is a gamble from the day you land on the island to the day you (hopefully) get into a US residency.

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Then there's the occasional few Canadians that I know and have heard about that failed out, couldn't get into any residencies, failed the step 1 multiple times, or better yet, gave up after 4 years of SGU, and is now pursuing a masters degree in Toronto... Something useful I've picked up along the years: you are the RULE, NOT the exception. People always get it backwards, thinking that they are the exception, but not the rule. This mode of thinking is what leads you to disaster. Personally, I didn't even want to be categorized under that 40% match category along with all the other IMGs. Because to the Americans, THAT is what you are, no one cares if you are a Canadian. You'll be in the same footing as an Pakistani, or Indian med graduate trying to get into a residency in the US. Do you think they'll show you leniency simply because you are Canadian? You are just another foreigner to them! If you think you'd get it easier as a Canadian, you are dreaming.

 

IMGs with American citizenship only had a 47% chance of matching to ACGME residencies. How much better can the prospects be for a Canadian, compared to an American? In the Caribbean schools, NOTHING is guaranteed. It is a gamble from the day you land on the island to the day you (hopefully) get into a US residency.

 

I go to SGU, so I can only speak for this school. The rule is that if you pass the boards and graduate, you will almost certainly get a residency spot in the US, regardless if you are Canadian or American (this rule applies to the big 4 carib schools). The statistics you provided apply to all IMGs in the world which includes tens of thousands of people and again I want to emphasize that that percentage varies considerably from school to school. SGU graduates only a few hundred per year.

 

With regards to people that go to off shore schools and fail out, they would have probably failed out regardless of which school they went to so you cannot point fingers at specific schools for those students' unfortunate outcomes.

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I go to SGU, so I can only speak for this school. The rule is that if you pass the boards and graduate, you will almost certainly get a residency spot in the US, regardless if you are Canadian or American (this rule applies to the big 4 carib schools). The statistics you provided apply to all IMGs in the world which includes tens of thousands of people and again I want to emphasize that that percentage varies considerably from school to school. SGU graduates only a few hundred per year.

 

With regards to people that go to off shore schools and fail out, they would have probably failed out regardless of which school they went to so you cannot point fingers at specific schools for those students' unfortunate outcomes.

 

Well, Ross doesn't have a 50% fail rate without a reason! I once heard a ROSS student say that he had sexual intercourse with MANY of his female classmates at ROSS without any regrets. Why? Because by 2nd year, all the women he had intercourse with had dropped out.

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Well, Ross doesn't have a 50% fail rate without a reason! I once heard a ROSS student say that he had sexual intercourse with MANY of his female classmates at ROSS without any regrets. Why? Because by 2nd year, all the women he had intercourse with had dropped out.

 

lol. Ross accepts tons of students knowing some of them will drop out.

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For now, I'd say basically 100% of all Canadians who attend the GOOD Caribbean schools are matching if they only want Family Med. That number may drop over the next few years as the leftover spots start to dwindle and even family med becomes competitive for FMGs. I feel like a broken record as I've said that in many threads on this forum, but it seems people aren't aware of this fact. If you go to a DO school, you won't be considered as an IMG (read: dirt) when you apply, so you won't have to worry about matching after. Also coming from a Caribbean school you will have to not only pass the Step 1 and 2 licensing exams, but you will have to outperform your US counterparts to prove your worth. If you have trouble with standardized exams like the MCAT, that should be a potential red flag in your mind that you will also have trouble with Step 1. Just some things to think about...

 

I agree about the red flag....I've been thinking about that a lot recently. However, the research that i've done on the MCAT vs. USMLE is that the MCAT is a lot more critical thinking and test testing than the USMLE. Although there is a correlation between the MCAT and the USMLE, it's not incredibly high because of the differences in the test structure.

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I agree about the red flag....I've been thinking about that a lot recently. However, the research that i've done on the MCAT vs. USMLE is that the MCAT is a lot more critical thinking and test testing than the USMLE. Although there is a correlation between the MCAT and the USMLE, it's not incredibly high because of the differences in the test structure.

You are right that there are some differences in the nature of the two beasts. However, the USMLE is all about critical thinking, applying knowledge to problems, and understanding the WHY about disease, and not the 'what'. The questions are often 2nd and 3rd order in nature. On the MCAT there will always be one correct answer, but on the USMLE exams, on many questions all 5-15 answer choices will be correct, and you have to know enough to figure out which of the choices is the MOST correct. Umm, don't mind my rant, I'm in the middle of preparing for the Step 1 right now, so I just felt like I had to clear that up. :)

 

The short version: I agree with you. There is a correlation between performance on MCAT and USMLE exams, but doing poorly on one does NOT mean you will necessarily do poorly on the other.

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  • 2 weeks later...

The short version: I agree with you. There is a correlation between performance on MCAT and USMLE exams, but doing poorly on one does NOT mean you will necessarily do poorly on the other.

 

Hey

 

I have recently started considering caribbean as an alternative and am a bit concerned about the USMLE. My problem with the MCAT was majorly in the verbal reasoning section and I did reasonably well on the physics and biology sections. I'm just wondering whether the USMLE has any sections that are similar to and as bad as the MCAT verbal!!

 

hmm....also anyone know if I will be at a disadvantage joining SGU for the Jan term instead of the September term?

 

Thanks in advance :)

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Hey

 

I have recently started considering caribbean as an alternative and am a bit concerned about the USMLE. My problem with the MCAT was majorly in the verbal reasoning section and I did reasonably well on the physics and biology sections. I'm just wondering whether the USMLE has any sections that are similar to and as bad as the MCAT verbal!!

I'm not too sure if there are any similarities between difficulty of MCAT sections and the USMLE. The USMLE Step 1 only has one "section". IIRC, you write 7 blocks of 46 questions each for a total of 322 questions, but each block is no different than the rest. As I told the other person, there is a correlation between MCAT and USMLE scores, but I'm not sure if it has any real significance.

 

hmm....also anyone know if I will be at a disadvantage joining SGU for the Jan term instead of the September term?

 

Thanks in advance :)

You should post on ValueMD to find out if there's anything specifically about SGU that makes this a bad idea. In general though, it does put you at a disadvantage for trying to match in 3 1/2 years. For instance if you were to start in January 2011 you probably wouldn't make the 2014 match but would have to sit out until 2015. I started in a January class so that is what I am struggling with: whether I want to rush through and try to graduate in 2012, or if I will go at a slower pace and have to wait until 2013.

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