What is your opinion on uofT's life science program?

[DOC_Ma]

Even though this is true, why do as many as 500-600 students go to UofT as pre-med only to have as less as 50 to get interviews at medical schools (met the GPA cut-offs)? With statistics like that, aren't they just digging their graves?

 

well thats about the right ratio for most universities too. My class has tons of uoft grads. It's probably not as hard as people make it sound.

[eugenius]

My friend managed to pull off an 80+ average at UofT. I consider him a genius.

[charmer08]

I think its pretty well known that someone with 3.0/4.0 at UofT could easily get 4.0/4.0 at Ryerson.

 

A 4.0 is no joke at any university.

 

And theres always people who get A's at UofT. Plus theres a lot of international students at uoft too, so tough competition.

[tingc222]

Forgive me, long post here, but I think it'll be useful for those unsure of going to UofT or not.

 

I'm a current UofT St. George undergrad in 4th year, and I can tell you it's pretty darn brutal. When you consider that almost everyone comes into UofT with a high school average of over 90, and the class average at the end of 1st year general chemistry is a C (65%) AFTER half the class drops, it tells you something.

 

While I haven't taken any undergrad science courses at other school, sometimes I wonder if there is a difference in difficulty from other big schools (UBC, Queens, Western, etc). I was the top of all my science and math classes in high school. Even so, I was humbled a bit in 1st and 2nd years, though I was still able to pull off decent grades. Some of my friends at other schools, who struggled in high school Chemistry and Calculus, said they aced those courses in 1st year because it was all the same as high school.

 

Part of it probably has to do with UofT's Year system as opposed to semesters or terms. Being tested on everything from September to May in Physics (PHY138) is a huge difference from being tested on one semester. Even if tests are not cumulative, it means you can't "start fresh" in January and you're stuck trying to bring up low mark if you didn't perform well in 1st semester. However, it seems like the school is making a push towards half-year courses now (1st year Physics and 2nd year Biology are now split into half-year courses).

 

Many people claim otherwise, but I'm pretty sure that there IS some kind of grade depression here, at least for 1st/2nd year courses. In at least 3 of my classes, the TAs have alluded the professor having to write a letter to the dean explaining why the class averages are "high" (70%). My friend's Physiology (PSL302) prof purposely lowered everyone's grade a few % lower (that, or cancelled the "bonus"-but-mandatory quizzes) because the average was too high. It's not every course; I have courses in which the average at the end was a B- (70-72%).

 

That being said...

 

I wouldn't trade my undergrad experience for any other school. Yes, it's a big school, which means huge competition, and sometimes it's easy to feel like "just a number" among the other 2500 Life Science students in 1st and 2nd year. However, big school also means big opportunity. I haven't heard of any other Canadian school having a specific "research opportunity program" (ROP299) for 2nd years to get exposed to research. After 3rd year, I got a 12-month full-time internship through their Professional Experience Year (PEY) program, which is usually only for Engineers but is expanding to other fields (e.g. Pharmacology/Toxicology).

 

Professors are generally quite reasonable, and the quality of teaching is very high. Past 2nd year, if you're in a Specialist program, you'll probably get to know some profs in your department. Exams for me have been fair, but you have to make sure you understand the material like the back of your hand. Don't just know how to answer the practice questions or memorize the lecture notes, know how to apply and use it. Many students complain about it, but I'll give you an example...

 

In Physical Chemistry (CHM220), we were asked to calculuate something about the lowest energy "pi" electron in some molecule. Most people (including me) were careless and used n = 1, since that's the lowest possible overall orbital. But only 1 person the class got the question right, because the lowest pi electron is in n = 2. There was all this fuss about having to know about LUMO and HOMO, and not being taught about it in class. But why do you need to know that? To answer the question, you don't.

 

It feels to me like UofT St. George weeds out the bottom 50% of undergrads and kills their dreams. But if you're in the top 10%, the world's your oyster. You just have to push yourself and seek out the opportunity. That also means challenging yourself with hard courses - I got hired through PEY because I took Atmospheric Chemistry (CHM415) and Instrumental Analysis (CHM317), which has a 4-hour weekly lab and 50-page lab reports, as my electives instead of bird courses. I'm going to be realistic and say that you can't just be book-smart to do well. You have to be a bit daring and enjoy a challenge, and have the perseverance to overcome whatever they throw at you.

 

If you're aiming for Med and are unsure of the challenge/competition, I suggest going to another school. But if you think you can handle it, UofT St. George is a great place for undergrad and you'll surely develop a great deal as a person.

 

Check back with me next year, because I may say otherwise; my GPA isn't as high as it could be, so fingers crossed that I'll get an interview somewhere...

 

Also, keep in mind that this is MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE. It could be different for those in other programs.

 

 

I saw this answer and realized that it's about time that I stop lurking and actually say something.

 

I'm in the exact same position as repede here. I'm in 3rd year undergrad in UTSG, taking the Immunology Specialist + Chemistry Major program. I pulled off doing CHM317 (instrumental analysis...4 hr lab, 2 hr lecture, 1 hr tutorial every week, and a 8000-word, error-analyzed, fully diagrammed, referenced, 30-40 page lab report due every month or so...OUCH...and that's one course) and CHM415 (honestly, thought the course was plain old fun, despite involvement of multivariable calculus at which I've never been good) last year (yes, 2nd year undergrad) simply because I felt that there was absolutely no reason for me to take a "bird course" and get absolutely nothing out of it, rather than taking something that may have an impact on my future.

 

Not one day goes by that I don't hear someone say UTSG is harder than other universities/campuses. I personally think this is BS. The difficulty depends so heavily on the program that there's no way of quantifying difficulty. If you take my program, it WILL be challenging, but you will also get THAT much more out of it (thousands of undergrad life science students...yet I could EASILY be the only person in the program combination that I chose). On the other hand, there are so many courses and other programs in UTSG that you could easily find a way to get easy marks, should you choose to.

 

For people like me, who likes a good challenge, there is absolutely no reason to go to any other school that offers this many choices. I have 0 regrets coming here.

 

All in all, if you are aiming for medical school, I'm not denying that there may be benefits to go with an easier program elsewhere for the higher GPA. But IF you are the kind of student that could handle the workload and can shake off the stress, there should be nothing stopping you from giving UTSG a shot.

 

Worst comes to worst, transferring is always an option

[cheech10]

Not one day goes by that I don't hear someone say UTSG is harder than other universities/campuses. I personally think this is BS. The difficulty depends so heavily on the program that there's no way of quantifying difficulty. If you take my program, it WILL be challenging, but you will also get THAT much more out of it (thousands of undergrad life science students...yet I could EASILY be the only person in the program combination that I chose). On the other hand, there are so many courses and other programs in UTSG that you could easily find a way to get easy marks, should you choose to.

 

For people like me, who likes a good challenge, there is absolutely no reason to go to any other school that offers this many choices. I have 0 regrets coming here.

 

All in all, if you are aiming for medical school, I'm not denying that there may be benefits to go with an easier program elsewhere for the higher GPA. But IF you are the kind of student that could handle the workload and can shake off the stress, there should be nothing stopping you from giving UTSG a shot.

 

Worst comes to worst, transferring is always an option

 

Amen. Lots of people get 4.0 GPAs at UofT, and lots of people get low marks at other universities. The student is much more important than the school.

[Rext]

Amen. Lots of people get 4.0 GPAs at UofT, and lots of people get low marks at other universities. The student is much more important than the school.

... No offence but as a 2nd year UTSG student, I have yet to meet anyone with a cGPA of 4.0. The best I've heard so far was a 3.91 . If I knew anyone with a cGPA of 4.0 at UTSG, I'd worship the ground they walk on x.x

[repede]

I know one person who graduated from UTSG with a cGPA of 4.0. She's in UTMed now.

 

While I think it's foolish to say that UTSG = automatically the hardest, I think it's just as foolish to completely refute the possibility that it is generally harder than average. True, the student is important in deciding how well he/she does. The curriculum is the another important variable; you can't just brush it aside because you can't quantify difficulty.

 

Don't get me wrong, I am NOT trying to say that UTSG is the hardest school in Canada, but from what I've seen, it's probably pretty high up there. I've had TAs that taught both at UTSG and at Ryerson. According to her, there is a BIG DIFFERENCE. Talk to students that transferred between UTSC/UTM and UTSG - the ones I've talked to (though not very high in number) say there is a noticeable difference.

[charmer08]

... No offence but as a 2nd year UTSG student, I have yet to meet anyone with a cGPA of 4.0. The best I've heard so far was a 3.91 . If I knew anyone with a cGPA of 4.0 at UTSG, I'd worship the ground they walk on x.x

 

I guess you should start going to those honours and awards cermony's. With 50,000 or so students on campus, you're just not going to meet those 25-60 students that have got 4.0's last year.

[Rext]

I guess you should start going to those honours and awards cermony's. With 50,000 or so students on campus, you're just not going to meet those 25-60 students that have got 4.0's last year.

 

Too bad UTSG doesn't actually have honours/award ceremonies. The closest thing we have (next to convocation) would be scholarship and principal dinners which are organized by college. And I should clarify, I'm limiting my population to those in the life sciences (since that's what this thread is about) which constitute about 2500 students. The general consensus is that the hardest program to gain entry into for Life Sciences is Laboratory Medicine and Pathology (LMP) with a GPA cut off at around 3.8. I personally know about 15 LMP's from my year and of those 15 and their friends, the highest cGPA is 3.91.

 

I know one person who graduated from UTSG with a cGPA of 4.0. She's in UTMed now.

 

Is this their cGPA or wGPA? And is it GPA at UofT or OMSAS GPA?

[repede]

Too bad UTSG doesn't actually have honours/award ceremonies. The closest thing we have (next to convocation) would be scholarship and principal dinners which are organized by college. And I should clarify, I'm limiting my population to those in the life sciences (since that's what this thread is about) which constitute about 2500 students. The general consensus is that the hardest program to gain entry into for Life Sciences is Laboratory Medicine and Pathology (LMP) with a GPA cut off at around 3.8. I personally know about 15 LMP's from my year and of those 15 and their friends, the highest cGPA is 3.91.

 

Is this their cGPA or wGPA? And is it GPA at UofT or OMSAS GPA?

 

She had a 4.0 UofT cGPA, 4.0 OMSAS cGPA, and a 4.0 OMSAS wGPA. She got 90+ in every single course she took. But I don't think you can really compare her to people in Specialist programs. She was a double major, one of which was not in Life Sci.

 

As for LMP, I swear the reason so many premeds want to get into it is because it's so competitive (i.e. sounds good/prestigious if you get in), and it has the word "medicine" in it. At least, that's the impression I got from some of my peers in 1st year.

[cheech10]

... No offence but as a 2nd year UTSG student, I have yet to meet anyone with a cGPA of 4.0. The best I've heard so far was a 3.91 . If I knew anyone with a cGPA of 4.0 at UTSG, I'd worship the ground they walk on x.x

 

Well, I had 3.98 GPA (OMSAS, from the immunology program), and a couple close friends had 4.0 from other life sci programs, so it is definitely possible.