worried_premed Posted October 7, 2010 Report Share Posted October 7, 2010 Hi y'all, do med schools do drug tests as part of the physical work-up required before beginning MED1? (e.g. urine tests for alcohol & marijuana)? I want to know if I should quit some of my..... recreational habits. Thanks! - Worried Premed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GGGSaint Posted October 7, 2010 Report Share Posted October 7, 2010 <3 this post. Please, somebody who knows, answer this gentleman . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
worried_premed Posted October 7, 2010 Author Report Share Posted October 7, 2010 Yes... I think that using recreational marijuana is OK as long as it doesn't impinge on your daily life. Besides, its gonna be legal soon in Cali, and Canada will be soon to follow no doubt! There are clearly no implications of addiction, and the only side effects are mild (lower short-term memory) and non-permanent... I wouldn't mind some discussion on the topic, as long as the thread doesn't get too out of hand! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ubiquitine Posted October 7, 2010 Report Share Posted October 7, 2010 Yes... I think that using recreational marijuana is OK as long as it doesn't impinge on your daily life. Besides, its gonna be legal soon in Cali, and Canada will be soon to follow no doubt! There are clearly no implications of addiction, and the only side effects are mild (lower short-term memory) and non-permanent... I wouldn't mind some discussion on the topic, as long as the thread doesn't get too out of hand! Well, here plenty of olds threads you can go if you want http://www.premed101.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33127&highlight=marijuana http://www.premed101.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33071&highlight=marijuana http://www.premed101.com/forums/showthread.php?t=41280&highlight=marijuana http://www.premed101.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28633&highlight=marijuana http://www.premed101.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22967&highlight=marijuana Have fun ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
worried_premed Posted October 7, 2010 Author Report Share Posted October 7, 2010 Well, here plenty of olds threads you can go if you want http://www.premed101.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33127&highlight=marijuana http://www.premed101.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33071&highlight=marijuana http://www.premed101.com/forums/showthread.php?t=41280&highlight=marijuana http://www.premed101.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28633&highlight=marijuana http://www.premed101.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22967&highlight=marijuana Have fun ! But do schools specifically test for it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfinch Posted October 7, 2010 Report Share Posted October 7, 2010 If a complaint is filed about a student taking substances with reasonable reason to believe (patient, other student) - a test can be requested. Marijuana itself is enough for a medical student to be kicked out of medical school - or a physician to lose his licence (for some time). I'm looking at several medical students in my own class, at UofT (1st yr) and MAC in particular! Seriously cut out that crap - and being proud of your reputation for being a stoner. ps...marijuna stays in the system for MANY months. For those looking at disability insurance - i know of several people that tested positive when applying for it - and not getting it! Other drugs - huge nono - and can lead to criminal prosecution. Includes cocaine, shrooms, exctasy, and meth - sadly all drugs i have known at least some med students to take at least a few times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmorelan Posted October 7, 2010 Report Share Posted October 7, 2010 If a complaint is filed about a student taking substances with reasonable reason to believe (patient, other student) - a test can be requested. Marijuana itself is enough for a medical student to be kicked out of medical school - or a physician to lose his licence (for some time). I'm looking at several medical students in my own class, at UofT (1st yr) and MAC in particular! Seriously cut out that crap - and being proud of your reputation for being a stoner. ps...marijuna stays in the system for MANY months. For those looking at disability insurance - i know of several people that tested positive when applying for it - and not getting it! Other drugs - huge nono - and can lead to criminal prosecution. Includes cocaine, shrooms, exctasy, and meth - sadly all drugs i have known at least some med students to take at least a few times. They can actually order a test? How does that work - med students don't have any less rights than anyone else and the school cannot override your right to not be tested against your will. Naturally I am not suggesting people should be abusing substances but I am curious about the legal issues involved Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfinch Posted October 7, 2010 Report Share Posted October 7, 2010 Well..the legality of the issue is tricky - would have to ask a lawyer. But patients have filed complaints about bad behaviour for people in meds - and if reasonable suspicion is there - a student could be let go/put on hold. We all know of one bizarre case in the yr above us. I know of one case of a student that lost a year for marijuana use - though for those curious - it was not UWO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmorelan Posted October 7, 2010 Report Share Posted October 7, 2010 Well..the legality of the issue is tricky - would have to ask a lawyer. But patients have filed complaints about bad behaviour for people in meds - and if reasonable suspicion is there - a student could be let go/put on hold. We all know of one bizarre case in the yr above us. I know of one case of a student that lost a year for marijuana use - though for those curious - it was not UWO. sounds fair! Personally I wouldn't automatically agree to testing as I just wouldn't have anything to gain and if for no other reason as to a bad lab testing might have something to lose. Sfinch does have one huge point - the one thing that does cause med students to fail out or get kicked out is a violation of professionalism. People I think forget that - it is not uncommon for 1 or 2 people to fail complete for that reason per cohort of students. Generally seems to happen in clerkship as patient interaction really kicks in (and after you already have the 80000 loan due etc). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bj89 Posted October 15, 2010 Report Share Posted October 15, 2010 Did any of you guys have to do a drug test as part of the physical after you get admitted? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A-Stark Posted October 15, 2010 Report Share Posted October 15, 2010 What physical at admission? And blood tests? For immunization statuses, yes, but general tox screens? Not happening and probably not legal either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itimebomb2 Posted October 15, 2010 Report Share Posted October 15, 2010 Hi y'all, do med schools do drug tests as part of the physical work-up required before beginning MED1? (e.g. urine tests for alcohol & marijuana)? I want to know if I should quit some of my..... recreational habits. Thanks! - Worried Premed Yes... I think that using recreational marijuana is OK as long as it doesn't impinge on your daily life. Besides, its gonna be legal soon in Cali, and Canada will be soon to follow no doubt! There are clearly no implications of addiction, and the only side effects are mild (lower short-term memory) and non-permanent... I wouldn't mind some discussion on the topic, as long as the thread doesn't get too out of hand! And sadly 30% or so of doctors are at least borderline alcoholics. That's so messed up. And marijuana can be eliminated within weeks, trust me. And you can talk bad about those other drugs, except shrooms--the gateway to heaven, literally. There is no such thing as a drug without adverse affects. Your habits will catch up with you sooner or later. At very least, MJ-induced apathy is hindering you from reaching your full potential. Resorting to drugs on a regular basis to escape reality is weak and pitiful, in my opinion. Drinking excessively makes idiots out of many of my classmates on a regular basis, and has very serious consequences as many of us now know all-too-well. The medical profession really doesn't need drug-heads in it, thanks very much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A-Stark Posted October 15, 2010 Report Share Posted October 15, 2010 There is no such thing as a drug without adverse affects. Your habits will catch up with you sooner or later. At very least, MJ-induced apathy is hindering you from reaching your full potential. Resorting to drugs on a regular basis to escape reality is weak and pitiful, in my opinion. Drinking excessively makes idiots out of many of my classmates on a regular basis, and has very serious consequences as many of us now know all-too-well. The medical profession really doesn't need drug-heads in it, thanks very much. Notwithstanding the legal issues (which one probably shouldn't be too paranoid about), this sort of holier-than-thou attitude is very tiresome. "Resorting" to drugs to "escape reality"? "Weak and pitiful"? FFS. Excessive drinking is absolutely a problem, but packaging it in a Nancy Reagan-style burst of rhetoric is ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfinch Posted October 15, 2010 Report Share Posted October 15, 2010 Notwithstanding the legal issues (which one probably shouldn't be too paranoid about), this sort of holier-than-thou attitude is very tiresome. "Resorting" to drugs to "escape reality"? "Weak and pitiful"? FFS. Excessive drinking is absolutely a problem, but packaging it in a Nancy Reagan-style burst of rhetoric is ridiculous. I don't judge individuals that occasionally use pot much. And those that have turned their lives around after being heavily into drugs. I think alcohol can in fact be more dangerous to some degree. But lets be clear. Marijuana IS ILLEGAL. Whether it should be decriminalized or not is another debate - but if a medical student/physican takes marijuana - they do put themselves at risk for disciplinary action. Few staff people openly talk about pot use, even if they do it. Several studies have shown long term apathy, as well as increased rates of depression, other mood disorders, and schizophrenia. In fact, a very large study about this was out recently in the news. Other drugs commonly used are much more serious. Ectacy can permanently change the brain architecture - from a single use. IT can also lead to an increase to making poor decisions - those that have taken it here can attest to basically following in love with any weird idea, person, or even object near themselves when on the drug. In terms of long term damage, it is mainly to the serotonin receptors - and can lead to major depression or mood swings permanently. Cocaine is obviously problematic as well. Shrooms can be seen as safe - but it is really difficult to know what one is getting. If I knew for sure my doctor was taking drugs, I would probably report him or her. That is a personal feeling. I am pretty sure much of the public would do so as well - even if some of the young openminded people here would not and are happy with taking drugs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfinch Posted October 15, 2010 Report Share Posted October 15, 2010 But then again, that is your opinion. Millions of top level professionals are alcoholics. Do you think that MJ is any worse? Its actually 100x better. Hell, a physician I used to work with would smoke 20 cigarettes a day (affected personality-nervous, yelling) and get drunk whenever he wasn't working (rumors). Yet, he was considered a very top doc. A trauma surgeon I knew would use marijuana to relax from his stressful lifestyle. Take pro athletes, for example. Many, many athletes use marijuana--there's a reason why so many boxers and mixed martial artists (probably the most well-rounded of all athletes) are flocking to California and it isn't because of the weather. Nick Diaz, a world champion in MMA, has said "I don't think marijuana is getting in the way of MMA. I actually think its MMA getting in the way of my marijuana"--implying the importance of MJ to reaching his full potential. Now, what is the difference between getting drunk to deal with your pains and taking something like shrooms to work out some issues and explore higher levels of consciousness? If you've never taken drugs (psychs) to explore other dimensions, you've never really lived. Take DMT, for example: you produce huge amounts of it while sleep. Without it naturally, it would be impossible to dream and you'd more than likely die. Now, if you take it as a drug, you'd be able to do things you've only dreamed about--like see the future, explore countries you've never been too, see spirits, etc. Now, don't get me wrong. While working, no one should ever take drugs. I've only tried psychs a few times and rarely drink alcohol and only smoked MJ during high school (and that's when I was at my best academically). You are using Nick Diaz as an example of success?? Him and his brother are among the rudest people in all of MMA - and initiated a fight on national TV that almsot led to Strikeforce permanetly being removed from CBS. His interviews ARE THE SINGLE MOST painful thing I have ever heard - not a single coherent thought. He is a well known pot user - and the only one really open about it in MMA. I'm sure others used it occasionally (as do some snowboarders, surfers, etc) - but widespread regular marijuana use among elite athletes is rare. There are some elite doctors that may use pot. There are also elite doctors that beat their wives, are privately racist, tax evade, give cigarettes to minors, do stunt racing, etc, etc. There are exceptions - but I would wager that regular pot users probably would have a harder time becoming an elite surgeon compared to someone that is not. And while california is looking at decriminalizing the drug (different that legalizing it) - it has not happened yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfinch Posted October 15, 2010 Report Share Posted October 15, 2010 But you won't report him if he has a glass of wine for dinner, eh? I don't think there is much of a difference between someone who has a joint at night and someone who has a bottle of beer...actually marijuana via vaporizer would make it much safer and cleaner. If I knew my doc was on drugs during work, I'd report him. However, if he was went home after a long day and used something on the light side (like MJ) with ample time to regain all motor functions, it would be stupid for anyone to report them. If alcohol was an illegal substance where the selling of said product leads to vicous gang violence - then yes. But it is not illegal. You CAN report a physician suspected of drinking on the job or being impaired though. In regards to MMA - several fighters occasionally use it- but few elite athletes use it on a regular basis (partially because of drug testing laws, but not exclusively). The Diaz brothers are well known for chronic use - and it definitely impairs their mental functioning. As doctors NEED their brains - I would rather they not take an illegal drug well known to impair reasoning skills - definitely short term and possibly long term. ps - the law is on my side at the moment. Whether you agree with me or not is moot - if you are a medical student/physian CAUGHT using marijuana - you will have to answer to authorities and will jeoapordize your career. pps - joe rogan is a good commentator...but one of the best comedians alive? you must actually be on crack - i remember watching his 'comedy' special a few years back - worst thing I had ever seen... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ploughboy Posted October 15, 2010 Report Share Posted October 15, 2010 And sadly 30% or so of doctors are at least borderline alcoholics.. An oldie but a goodie... Q. What's the definition of an alcoholic? A. Somebody who drinks more than his doctor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apache Posted October 15, 2010 Report Share Posted October 15, 2010 no one will ASK for a test unless they have hard evidence (i.e. physical evidence), you can always deny, but the school will move for grounds for expulsion/suspension/rehab based on the evidence they have (which has to be pretty solid, accusations don't hold any weight, anyone can say anyone is doing anything... more like video etc.) They can actually order a test? How does that work - med students don't have any less rights than anyone else and the school cannot override your right to not be tested against your will. Naturally I am not suggesting people should be abusing substances but I am curious about the legal issues involved Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apache Posted October 15, 2010 Report Share Posted October 15, 2010 depends on your specialty, lots of doctors with seizures or bipolarity use mood stabilizers that impair their cognitive abilities, but they still function perfectly fine, although they would prob be in less time pressured specialties If alcohol was an illegal substance where the selling of said product leads to vicous gang violence - then yes. But it is not illegal. You CAN report a physician suspected of drinking on the job or being impaired though. In regards to MMA - several fighters occasionally use it- but few elite athletes use it on a regular basis (partially because of drug testing laws, but not exclusively). The Diaz brothers are well known for chronic use - and it definitely impairs their mental functioning. As doctors NEED their brains - I would rather they not take an illegal drug well known to impair reasoning skills - definitely short term and possibly long term. ps - the law is on my side at the moment. Whether you agree with me or not is moot - if you are a medical student/physian CAUGHT using marijuana - you will have to answer to authorities and will jeoapordize your career. pps - joe rogan is a good commentator...but one of the best comedians alive? you must actually be on crack - i remember watching his 'comedy' special a few years back - worst thing I had ever seen... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apache Posted October 15, 2010 Report Share Posted October 15, 2010 The question is do the advantages outweigh the adverse effects, a lot of shrinks abuse benzos after work, but that allows them to deal with the constant stress of suicidal patients etc., if they don't have a sufficient disposition to embrace the stress that comes with the job. I'm going to say that generalizations aren't the greatest here, it really depends on a case by case basis. BTW, your assumption that people's habits catch up with them is funny because those are the only people with habits you see, the ones who are functional obviously aren't open about it and believe me, among professionals they're in the majority There is no such thing as a drug without adverse affects. Your habits will catch up with you sooner or later. At very least, MJ-induced apathy is hindering you from reaching your full potential. Resorting to drugs on a regular basis to escape reality is weak and pitiful, in my opinion. Drinking excessively makes idiots out of many of my classmates on a regular basis, and has very serious consequences as many of us now know all-too-well. The medical profession really doesn't need drug-heads in it, thanks very much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itimebomb2 Posted October 15, 2010 Report Share Posted October 15, 2010 But then again, that is your opinion. Millions of top level professionals are alcoholics. Do you think that MJ is any worse? Its actually 100x better. Hell, a physician I used to work with would smoke 20 cigarettes a day (affected personality-nervous, yelling) and get drunk whenever he wasn't working (rumors). Yet, he was considered a very top doc. A trauma surgeon I knew would use marijuana to relax from his stressful lifestyle. Take pro athletes, for example. Many, many athletes use marijuana--there's a reason why so many boxers and mixed martial artists (probably the most well-rounded of all athletes) are flocking to California and it isn't because of the weather. Nick Diaz, a world champion in MMA, has said "I don't think marijuana is getting in the way of MMA. I actually think its MMA getting in the way of my marijuana"--implying the importance of MJ to reaching his full potential. Now, what is the difference between getting drunk to deal with your pains and taking something like shrooms to work out some issues and explore higher levels of consciousness? If you've never taken drugs (psychs) to explore other dimensions, you've never really lived. Take DMT, for example: you produce huge amounts of it while sleep. Without it naturally, it would be impossible to dream and you'd more than likely die. Now, if you take it as a drug, you'd be able to do things you've only dreamed about--like see the future, explore countries you've never been too, see spirits, etc. Now, don't get me wrong. While working, no one should ever take drugs. I've only tried psychs a few times and rarely drink alcohol and only smoked MJ during high school (and that's when I was at my best academically). Your citing of MMA athletes and comedians as examples of people who have "reached their potential" is laughable. I didn't think such a rudimentary point needed to be made but here it is anways: Obviously MJ-induced apathy, just like every other medical effect of a drug, is an average - it doesn't happen to everyone. Who said that alcoholism or smoking was good? I distinctly mentioned the poor choices some of my classmates make regularly that make fools of them. Plenty of doctors turn out to be greedy, selfish, unkind... child molesters... etc. etc. Just because a chemical exists in your body doesn't mean it ought to be abused - a huge number of drugs that we administer in medicine are exogenous versions of the exact same thing in the body. Now, if something productive can be achieved through the use of psychotic drugs, I might be willing to entertain the usefulness of it. However, no such research has ever been brought forth and therefore the isolated comments from a handful of drug-abusing hippies really doesn't mean much to me, or to anyone in the professional world either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itimebomb2 Posted October 15, 2010 Report Share Posted October 15, 2010 BTW, your assumption that people's habits catch up with them is funny because those are the only people with habits you see, the ones who are functional obviously aren't open about it and believe me, among professionals they're in the majority Believe you? What do you know that I don't? I can plainly see the adverse affects of alcohol abuse amongst my peers even in medical school. Alcohol was implicated recently in the deaths of two of my classmates - what do you have to say about that? Alcohol has consequences - short or long term. Doctors of all people should know that alcohol and drug abuse are not without their harms, and please don't bother wasting my time by responding with some ignorant comment about how MJ and alcohol don't hurt you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamer Posted October 15, 2010 Report Share Posted October 15, 2010 Although sfinch comes across as more and more of an arrogant prick by the post, he's once again pretty right for the most part. The bottom line is that whether or not you agree with it, marijuana is illegal. We need to treat it as such. If it makes your world go round, then that's super. But keeping it to yourself and not glorifying it in public is essential. Those who know me know how I feel about the matter, but as we transition from undergrads to real professionals, we need to seriously look at how we project ourselves to our colleagues and the public. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apache Posted October 17, 2010 Report Share Posted October 17, 2010 I know a lot, believe me, I fell into a weird crowd and was hanging around 30ish professionals when I was 19-20 because of some friends I met who were older students and happened to know a bunch of people in alternative social circles... a lot of my friends even now are even in their 30's... most of the hard drug users I know are professionals that can afford, and know how to tidy up their habits, or have enough self discipline so that no one would even think twice. I'm sorry about your friends, that's a sad story, but realize that outcomes are very situation and individual dependent. BTW, you took what i said out of context, and redefined what I said so you'd have a leg to stand on by excluding the previous two paragraphs of my post, all I said was that making generalizations about the consequences of drug use is foolish because you get a UNREPRESENTATIVE sample by the very nature of recognizing that someone is using the drug due to their aberrant behaviour (i.e. ... for every person you SEE abusing alcohol or hard drugs and making idiots of themselves, there's another who does heroin or ketamine every other weekend, and shows up to practice oncology on Monday... the reason you don't know about them is that these drugs are illegal, and they will lose their license to make 300,000 g a year and do a job they enjoy, so it's not something they really talk about). If you want my honest opinion, I agree with you, alcohol and marijuana do have negative consequences, especially in terms of memory, but tell that to my ex-neighbour economics professor who use to show up to the tower library drunk every night, the guy was pretty high up at his university... I know another world class mathematician who's a raving alcoholic... all I said was that drugs can be good or bad... ask world class chemist Albert Hoffmann, he invented, and then used LSD for over 60 years and lived to be 102... Winston Churchill is another good example of a highly functioning chronic alcoholic. To me, drug abuse, besides legal definition, is a matter of function, and not biology, and in that case, you're ignoring all the people who function fine and don't fall into that definition. Believe you? What do you know that I don't? I can plainly see the adverse affects of alcohol abuse amongst my peers even in medical school. Alcohol was implicated recently in the deaths of two of my classmates - what do you have to say about that? Alcohol has consequences - short or long term. Doctors of all people should know that alcohol and drug abuse are not without their harms, and please don't bother wasting my time by responding with some ignorant comment about how MJ and alcohol don't hurt you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apache Posted October 17, 2010 Report Share Posted October 17, 2010 Ketamine cures depression in 1 day, check the NATURE paper on it. Pure Ecstasy, when administered properly, is great for individual and couples therapy, check the research out from the 60's and 70's. LSD has been shown to be effective for treating alcoholism and depression, as have magic mushrooms. Marinol (Pure THC) has been shown to be effective in treating OCD in as little as 6 days in extremely treatment resistant populations. Amphetamine salts are highly effective in treating ADHD, and narcolepsy if appropriately diagnosed. Btw, there's little research in North America for politico-legal reasons, not biological reasons, however, there's quite a bit of research in Europe. BTW, I consider MMA athletes to have reached amazing potential, they are some of the most elite athletes in the world, on the contrary, I hardly give any credence to people on the basis of obtaining an MD (including myself, I believe my undergrad has more personal value and was more intellectually challenging)... there's 500 of them in every hospital you walk into, don't think there are 500 elite level MMA's in the world. All you're doing is slapping your paradoxically elitist (paradoxical because most doc's I meet are intellectually unimpressive, besides their memory for minutia learned through rote repetition, or technical skills; they're also hardly elite in a societal sense), idiosyncratic label on what success is. BTW, did you ever consider that by becoming a "professional" you were being indoctrinated into a supposedly normative framework of thought that makes pharma and the government's thoughts your own, and somehow gives you the authority to belittle the thoughts of those who aren't professionals... the process of selection and education itself into medical school screens out curious minds, and instead selects for those who find that the authority, money and power that come with upholding the status quo, which they have an invested interest in, tempting. I also find it interesting how you attempt to define and medicalize everything as a measurable and observable outcome, another example of scientism and non critical thinking... how exactly can you quantify the phenomenological insight one can have into the possibilities of the mind and the possible benefits someone can have from consuming a substance such as LSD, oh nevermind, we could use an objective (lol) constructivist psychological scale of happiness if only the us government didn't wage a war on drugs to mark up prices, so dealers will have more assets (paid for by the public) for the police to seize, plus more prisoners to fill their private prisons, as well as more jobs for prison guards, parole officers and law enforcement... besides, there's no patent on LSD anyways so why bother legalizing investigating benefits when there's no money to be made and when the drug enforcement and pharmaceutical industries are doing so well... Your citing of MMA athletes and comedians as examples of people who have "reached their potential" is laughable. I didn't think such a rudimentary point needed to be made but here it is anways: Obviously MJ-induced apathy, just like every other medical effect of a drug, is an average - it doesn't happen to everyone. Who said that alcoholism or smoking was good? I distinctly mentioned the poor choices some of my classmates make regularly that make fools of them. Plenty of doctors turn out to be greedy, selfish, unkind... child molesters... etc. etc. Just because a chemical exists in your body doesn't mean it ought to be abused - a huge number of drugs that we administer in medicine are exogenous versions of the exact same thing in the body. Now, if something productive can be achieved through the use of psychotic drugs, I might be willing to entertain the usefulness of it. However, no such research has ever been brought forth and therefore the isolated comments from a handful of drug-abusing hippies really doesn't mean much to me, or to anyone in the professional world either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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