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Ketamine cures depression in 1 day, check the NATURE paper on it.

 

Pure Ecstasy, when administered properly, is great for individual and couples therapy, check the research out from the 60's and 70's.

 

LSD has been shown to be effective for treating alcoholism and depression, as have magic mushrooms.

 

Marinol (Pure THC) has been shown to be effective in treating OCD in as little as 6 days in extremely treatment resistant populations.

 

Amphetamine salts are highly effective in treating ADHD, and narcolepsy if appropriately diagnosed.

 

Btw, there's little research in North America for politico-legal reasons, not biological reasons, however, there's quite a bit of research in Europe.

 

BTW, I consider MMA athletes to have reached amazing potential, they are some of the most elite athletes in the world, on the contrary, I hardly give any credence to people on the basis of obtaining an MD (including myself, I believe my undergrad has more personal value and was more intellectually challenging)... there's 500 of them in every hospital you walk into, don't think there are 500 elite level MMA's in the world.

 

All you're doing is slapping your paradoxically elitist (paradoxical because most doc's I meet are intellectually unimpressive, besides their memory for minutia learned through rote repetition, or technical skills; they're also hardly elite in a societal sense), idiosyncratic label on what success is. BTW, did you ever consider that by becoming a "professional" you were being indoctrinated into a supposedly normative framework of thought that makes pharma and the government's thoughts your own, and somehow gives you the authority to belittle the thoughts of those who aren't professionals... the process of selection and education itself into medical school screens out curious minds, and instead selects for those who find that the authority, money and power that come with upholding the status quo, which they have an invested interest in, tempting.

 

I also find it interesting how you attempt to define and medicalize everything as a measurable and observable outcome, another example of scientism and non critical thinking... how exactly can you quantify the phenomenological insight one can have into the possibilities of the mind and the possible benefits someone can have from consuming a substance such as LSD, oh nevermind, we could use an objective (lol) constructivist psychological scale of happiness if only the us government didn't wage a war on drugs to mark up prices, so dealers will have more assets (paid for by the public) for the police to seize, plus more prisoners to fill their private prisons, as well as more jobs for prison guards, parole officers and law enforcement... besides, there's no patent on LSD anyways so why bother legalizing investigating benefits when there's no money to be made and when the drug enforcement and pharmaceutical industries are doing so well...

 

Muse. I get it. You like drugs. You probably do alot of them because you are so defensive on the issue. They make you feel great. Wonderful. Fine.

 

They are also illegal. And the vast majority of mainstream research finds almost all illegal drugs significantly harmful. Yet they are illegal and widely believed to impact professinoal perfomance - especially as their incomes are supported by the public purse.

 

There is limited clinical benefit for many of them, I agree. In the controlled hospital setting, cocaine can be given for nose bleeds, marijuana for cancer induced anorexia, and heroin derivatives for pain.

 

The majority of mainstream health professional leaders (who are hardly right wing purtianical nuts) and mainstream research finds most illegal drugs to have very deleterious effects. Most homeless people and a disproportionate amount of our criminal underclass is involved in drugs. And while there is certainly a wall street/bay street set that loves their cocaine - most of the successful upper class are not drug users. Alcoholism does exist, no doubt, and is usually associated with many problems anyways. Russia's male population has a lower life expectancy than India's male population and 15-20 yrs less than their female population - entirely from alchohol use.

 

Go ahead and keep drinking and doing drugs as a med student muse. It's your life. Just don't be surprised to have the college nail you for this kind of illegal behaviour in the future. Perhaps you can also date your patients (its also illegal, but you can maybe do it without harming anyone else), or self prescribe, or whatever. Who cares for the laws and rules of your profession?!?

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I still don't know why people think doctors are the pinnacle of society. I know this is a premed forum but COME ON! Literally half my extended family are doctors and I grew up knowing doctors to be like normal people. There is some argument to hold them to a higher standard due to the responsibility they hold (life/health) but there are plenty of other professions that have just as much responsibility. Lawyers, judges, police officers, the army, etc. Drug/alcohol abuse abounds in all of them. The majority of them hold their **** together pretty well.

 

And before I get called a drug abuser too I'll just say I've never tried any sort of drug ever in my life, and I used to drink occasionally but don't any more. I still don't feel its right to beat up drug using professionals that otherwise do their jobs just fine.

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Weird. I always viewed drug/alcohol abuse as a way of coping, for some people, in terms of personal issues they would never discuss with others or rarely tell about to other people. Amongst the people I hang out with (most of them aiming for a Ph.D. or an MD), I've noticed a pattern - they abuse these substances when they're a) very stressed out; B) have personal issues they don't know how to deal with; c) have been leaning on these substances for a substantial amount of time and now don't know how to quit or they don't know how to deal with problems without these substances. Now, I'm not saying that all individuals that rely on some sort of substance don't know how to deal with obstacles/issues that life throws at them. I've just noticed this pattern in my friends.

 

If we take a look at some of the brilliant actors out there - most of them rely on alcohol and use it as a coping mechanism in terms of their emotions. They think that by, let's say, drinking, they will stack their emotions into order. These individuals will never open up about their problems even though they're highly emotional. The same applies to doctors, lawyers, etc. The more f*cked you are or the more brilliant you are (depends at how you look at it), the worse it becomes. Some of the most talented painters would use drugs to create some of the most incredible artwork out there. Would they be able to create this without consuming a particular substance? Maybe.

 

Now, why would you care as to how someone lives their life? It is their life and their choice. If their substance/alcohol abuse doesn't impact their work/relationships with other people, then why toss judgments? If they're impaired in their work environment and hurt others because of this then - yes, you can judge. However, how an individual decides to deal with their problems is completely up to them.

 

Btw, the more you ban substances, the more will people want to try them. It's pure psychology. That what is forbidden will be more attractive than that which is allowed.

 

If you're wondering: my dad was and still is an alcoholic; my stepfather passed away because he drank a lot; I occasionally drink in the company of other people (never by myself); I don't do drugs.

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Yeah drugs are illegal and alcohol abuse is bad, but **** doctors better not be bringing in this "if you use these things/ do these things you are sub-human" attitude to the clinic. In the real world many people abuse substances to cope with life - and the only way your patients will talk to you about this is if THEY DO NOT FEEL JUDGED BY YOU.

 

As professionals I agree things are different for us. But I also think it is imperatively important not to insulate ourselves from the real world, otherwise we won't be able to understand patients and they won't understand us.

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And while there is certainly a wall street/bay street set that loves their cocaine - most of the successful upper class are not drug users. Alcoholism does exist, no doubt, and is usually associated with many problems anyways. Russia's male population has a lower life expectancy than India's male population and 15-20 yrs less than their female population - entirely from alchohol use.

 

No dear Sfinch, drugs are more widely used in the upper classes of society, not the other way around surprisingly. People in the upper social classes tend to be against authority, and they have more money to afford drugs. Medical doctors are no exception to the rule. Welcome to the real world my friend.

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Do you think that through ad hominems and big words you can intellectually bully your opponents? None of what you said answers or even comes close to rebutting any of the points that I made, and you know it. What's the point in comparing elite MMA athletes to me? Was the point ever that because I'm in medical school and I don't take drugs that I am therefore better than everyone else? Hell no!

 

The point is that the drugs are a hindrance to the potential of individuals. If they are elite MMA athletes who are hooked on LSD (arbitrary example), maybe they could have been an elite MMA athlete with a PhD, because they didn't waste the time and energy getting high and hanging out with druggies.

 

The isolated and controlled effects of drugs used in the clinical environment have long been known, understood and used - thanks for elucidating the obvious. The point was of course that these drugs need to be used for those purposes, not recreationally and abusivelly.

 

Ketamine cures depression in 1 day, check the NATURE paper on it.

 

Pure Ecstasy, when administered properly, is great for individual and couples therapy, check the research out from the 60's and 70's.

 

LSD has been shown to be effective for treating alcoholism and depression, as have magic mushrooms.

 

Marinol (Pure THC) has been shown to be effective in treating OCD in as little as 6 days in extremely treatment resistant populations.

 

Amphetamine salts are highly effective in treating ADHD, and narcolepsy if appropriately diagnosed.

 

Btw, there's little research in North America for politico-legal reasons, not biological reasons, however, there's quite a bit of research in Europe.

 

BTW, I consider MMA athletes to have reached amazing potential, they are some of the most elite athletes in the world, on the contrary, I hardly give any credence to people on the basis of obtaining an MD (including myself, I believe my undergrad has more personal value and was more intellectually challenging)... there's 500 of them in every hospital you walk into, don't think there are 500 elite level MMA's in the world.

 

All you're doing is slapping your paradoxically elitist (paradoxical because most doc's I meet are intellectually unimpressive, besides their memory for minutia learned through rote repetition, or technical skills; they're also hardly elite in a societal sense), idiosyncratic label on what success is. BTW, did you ever consider that by becoming a "professional" you were being indoctrinated into a supposedly normative framework of thought that makes pharma and the government's thoughts your own, and somehow gives you the authority to belittle the thoughts of those who aren't professionals... the process of selection and education itself into medical school screens out curious minds, and instead selects for those who find that the authority, money and power that come with upholding the status quo, which they have an invested interest in, tempting.

 

I also find it interesting how you attempt to define and medicalize everything as a measurable and observable outcome, another example of scientism and non critical thinking... how exactly can you quantify the phenomenological insight one can have into the possibilities of the mind and the possible benefits someone can have from consuming a substance such as LSD, oh nevermind, we could use an objective (lol) constructivist psychological scale of happiness if only the us government didn't wage a war on drugs to mark up prices, so dealers will have more assets (paid for by the public) for the police to seize, plus more prisoners to fill their private prisons, as well as more jobs for prison guards, parole officers and law enforcement... besides, there's no patent on LSD anyways so why bother legalizing investigating benefits when there's no money to be made and when the drug enforcement and pharmaceutical industries are doing so well...

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Resorting to drugs on a regular basis to escape reality is weak and pitiful, in my opinion.

 

Drinking excessively makes idiots out of many of my classmates on a regular basis, and has very serious consequences as many of us now know all-too-well.

 

The medical profession really doesn't need drug-heads in it, thanks very much.

 

It's amazing how judgemental you are, and you're going to be a doctor!

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Please don't make ad hominem attacks on me, it's immature. I rarely drink and don't do drugs, I prefer being sober. All I said was that many people know how to use drugs responsibly, and those aren't the people you see on the street. I'm defensive on the issue because of my beliefs about personal liberties and how they should be protected, as well as the fact that many of my friends, who are professionals, use drugs, with the sufficient time to recover before work of course, and function quite fine.

 

If I felt sexually attracted to my client, I'd ask that they see someone else, citing personal incompatibility.

 

By the way, you should question every rule and law, period, if it makes sense, it makes sense, if it doesn't and is a relic of tradition and ulterior motives, it should be dumped.

 

As an ad hominem from myself if I didn't have the option of private practice and had to practice with colleagues like you, I'd move to Mexico, set up a clinic a few minutes from a Canadian frequented resort, and set off into the sunset.

 

Muse. I get it. You like drugs. You probably do alot of them because you are so defensive on the issue. They make you feel great. Wonderful. Fine.

 

They are also illegal. And the vast majority of mainstream research finds almost all illegal drugs significantly harmful. Yet they are illegal and widely believed to impact professinoal perfomance - especially as their incomes are supported by the public purse.

 

There is limited clinical benefit for many of them, I agree. In the controlled hospital setting, cocaine can be given for nose bleeds, marijuana for cancer induced anorexia, and heroin derivatives for pain.

 

The majority of mainstream health professional leaders (who are hardly right wing purtianical nuts) and mainstream research finds most illegal drugs to have very deleterious effects. Most homeless people and a disproportionate amount of our criminal underclass is involved in drugs. And while there is certainly a wall street/bay street set that loves their cocaine - most of the successful upper class are not drug users. Alcoholism does exist, no doubt, and is usually associated with many problems anyways. Russia's male population has a lower life expectancy than India's male population and 15-20 yrs less than their female population - entirely from alchohol use.

 

Go ahead and keep drinking and doing drugs as a med student muse. It's your life. Just don't be surprised to have the college nail you for this kind of illegal behaviour in the future. Perhaps you can also date your patients (its also illegal, but you can maybe do it without harming anyone else), or self prescribe, or whatever. Who cares for the laws and rules of your profession?!?

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Excuse his ignorance, he was locked in a basement studying when the rest of us were experiencing real life.

 

No dear Sfinch, drugs are more widely used in the upper classes of society, not the other way around surprisingly. People in the upper social classes tend to be against authority, and they have more money to afford drugs. Medical doctors are no exception to the rule. Welcome to the real world my friend.
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Maybe the MMA athletes enjoyed getting high on LSD, which allowed them to relax from vigorous training, so they could keep going on. God didn't design us to be little worker machines that thought that the potential of our lives should be limited to getting acronyms by our names.

 

I extrapolated the point that you are quite pompous and arrogant from the fact that you claimed that becoming an elite mixed martial artist wasn't living up to one's human potential, and that somehow being a clean cut MD was, do you know how much joy MMA fighters bring to their viewer, they are simply the best, and to dismiss them simply because they haven't reached the same academic success as an MD of PhD makes a nul point of accusing me of intellectually bullying my opponents.

 

Drugs aren't a NECESSARILY a hindrance to peoples potential, many of the worlds greatest artists, writers and musicians were drug users. Many of our most revered politicians are alcoholics.

 

I'll split you half way though, I believe that drugs, under medical supervision, can and should be used recreationally, if someone so desires. However, I don't condone abuse of drugs, although I realize that abuse often stems from underlying problems coping with life's issues or demands; I also want to re-iterate that I don't condone physicians using drugs while on the job, or during the post consumption period where their judgement is still impaired.

 

 

Do you think that through ad hominems and big words you can intellectually bully your opponents? None of what you said answers or even comes close to rebutting any of the points that I made, and you know it. What's the point in comparing elite MMA athletes to me? Was the point ever that because I'm in medical school and I don't take drugs that I am therefore better than everyone else? Hell no!

 

The point is that the drugs are a hindrance to the potential of individuals. If they are elite MMA athletes who are hooked on LSD (arbitrary example), maybe they could have been an elite MMA athlete with a PhD, because they didn't waste the time and energy getting high and hanging out with druggies.

 

The isolated and controlled effects of drugs used in the clinical environment have long been known, understood and used - thanks for elucidating the obvious. The point was of course that these drugs need to be used for those purposes, not recreationally and abusivelly.

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It's unfortunate, eh? One of the most important tools you have to gaining a therapeutic alliance with a patient is a willingness to listen, and understand how they found themselves in their situation, and to engage a patient openly and willingly without judgement. Without that, we are simply another oppressive authority figure, who addicts have been conditioned to dislike, for obvious reasons; I think sometimes people underestimate the social aspect of our craft.

 

It's amazing how judgemental you are, and you're going to be a doctor!
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Maybe the MMA athletes enjoyed getting high on LSD, which allowed them to relax from vigorous training, so they could keep going on. God didn't design us to be little worker machines that thought that the potential of our lives should be limited to getting acronyms by our names.

 

I extrapolated the point that you are quite pompous and arrogant from the fact that you claimed that becoming an elite mixed martial artist wasn't living up to one's human potential, and that somehow being a clean cut MD was, do you know how much joy MMA fighters bring to their viewer, they are simply the best, and to dismiss them simply because they haven't reached the same academic success as an MD of PhD makes a nul point of accusing me of intellectually bullying my opponents.

 

Drugs aren't a NECESSARILY a hindrance to peoples potential, many of the worlds greatest artists, writers and musicians were drug users. Many of our most revered politicians are alcoholics.

 

I'll split you half way though, I believe that drugs, under medical supervision, can and should be used recreationally, if someone so desires. However, I don't condone abuse of drugs, although I realize that abuse often stems from underlying problems coping with life's issues or demands; I also want to re-iterate that I don't condone physicians using drugs while on the job, or during the post consumption period where their judgement is still impaired.

 

Muse, why do you even bother answering to itimebomb? He's either extremely ignorant or a troll. Don't waste your time.

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The point is that the drugs are a hindrance to the potential of individuals. If they are elite MMA athletes who are hooked on LSD (arbitrary example), maybe they could have been an elite MMA athlete with a PhD, because they didn't waste the time and energy getting high and hanging out with druggies.

Haha...timebomb, do you think achieving a PhD or similar degree is the ultimate achievement in life for humans?

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modafinil is indicated for shift work sleep disorder, which is a very liberal diagnosis, when I was in Europe and couldn't afford coffee because it was so expensive, I went to the doctor and asked for a prescription for adrafinil (it's 1/8th the cost of modafinil), which is metabolized to modafinil in about 45 minutes in your body; the doctor had no objections whatsoever, modafinil is a wonderful drug and I would argue a better alternative to coffee, you don't get headaches, become dehydrated, crash, it lacks or has minimal dopaminergic properties and thus almost no sympathomimetic properties, so has little potential for abuse. When you are on it you don't feel "high" or "eurphoric" you just feel awake and alert, i'm actually considering going to my doctor and asking for a prescription for modafinil because of the hazards I think coffee is taking on my health (I drink 5 cups a day... when I was in Europe, after the first few days of taking adrafinil I would rarely ever drink coffee period, and believe it or not I felt great, not euphoric, but as if the constant drain of coffee had been taken off my shoulders).

 

It's also notable that physicians who do shift work or work long hours (ER doctors, surgeons, and internests, nurses working doubles, even truck drivers etc.) all have legitimate indication for modafinil.

 

I just wanted to chime in on this because I find it humorous how undergrads drink 5 to 6 energy drinks to pull all nighters when 100-200 mg of modafinil would provide a much safer alternative, due to its lack of sympathomimetic properties.

 

I remember hearing the physician who does White Coat Black Art say that he regularly uses modafinil.
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Excuse his ignorance, he was locked in a basement studying when the rest of us were experiencing real life.

 

It's unfortunate, eh? One of the most important tools you have to gaining a therapeutic alliance with a patient is a willingness to listen, and understand how they found themselves in their situation, and to engage a patient openly and willingly without judgement. Without that, we are simply another oppressive authority figure, who addicts have been conditioned to dislike, for obvious reasons; I think sometimes people underestimate the social aspect of our craft.

 

I love the arrogance that emanates from you, Muse, and your partner thebouque - because you can insult someone's way of life, insinuating that the life you've led is somehow more "real" (whatever the hell that means to you) than someone else's, and than literally less than a minute later go on a diatribe about how we as future doctors should give patients the benefit of the doubt.

 

But let's be clear here. I was under the impression that as future doctors, we were still allowed to have our own opinions outside of the work environment. Oh - this just in - pm101 isn't a hospital, so you're welcome to share you opinions (but please, end the hypocrisy - I'm literally yawning when I read your posts).

 

Since you love citing your wildly successful druggy friends so much, here's a thought for you - have you ever entertained the notion that the licentious drug usage that you've described in some of your friends (forgiving, at the moment the illegality of it all - which you obviously don't care about anyways) can one day spiral into depression, abuse, and ultimately destruction of their otherwise healthy lives? The long-term effects of psychosomatic drugs, not unlike many habits or health impactors, can take years to surface appreciatively (hence the "long-term"!). Why don't you cite me one single 40-year follow-up study of persistent hard drug usage in professionals? Oh wait - there aren't any.

 

Is anyone supposed to be surprised that you can both be a professional and a drug user? I guarantee you that if I started doing ecstasy today, I would still pass my LMCCs with flying colours and probably make it through residency, because all the other things I have going for me will more than compensate for the deterrence of a drug addiction - la dee dah. But no doubt the habit will eventually catch up to me. Just like how smoking doesn't show an appreciable impact on cardiovascular disease until at least 20 pack years have been recorded. The fact of the matter is that, as sfinch pointed out, drug use is strongly associated with the underclass and physical/mental/social/economic degeneration overall. Like it or not, these effects are real, measurable, and have demonstrated causative association (not to mention they appeal to our sense of the obvious).

 

It must be really easy to be you, since every opinion you have is protected under the hospices of secular humanism and relativism which apparently have become the new religion. Why don't you make my day and go on another little didactic session about how closed minded the average upper middle class non-drug user is, or alternatively, you or a compatriot can reuse old faithful and simply pull another one of my quotes out of context. Either way, I encourage you to make your posts even longer since it's getting late and my lack of illegal prescription drugs is making it hard for me to sleep (and nothing quite soothes the mind like reading your liberalist propaganda). And hey, maybe if you talk long enough you'll actually come up with an original idea I haven't heard before and then you'll REALLY make my day.

 

Haha...timebomb, do you think achieving a PhD or similar degree is the ultimate achievement in life for humans?

 

Thanks for the brilliant contribution, buddy.

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I didn't say my life was more real than yours, but I have no doubt that I've had a far far greater diversity of experiences than you have, therefore I have a more representative understanding of what the population, as a whole, is like. There's no such thing as a "real" life, there's no way one person can understand the totality of human experience, which is why it is important to ask our patients about their lives and why they do what they do.

 

I'm really only being arrogant if you take what I said literally, I was using mere rhetoric as a tool to be a bit retaliatory because of your comments on how those who drink their lives away are pathetic (which is judgmental, especially from a physicians perspective), so in a way I'm trying to reflect how your views make others feel by doing the same to you or Sfinch, if that's a little bit too difficult for you to understand, well excuse me, I'll try not to over tax your mind. I'm sure both of you have good reasons for your beliefs, you may have had experiences with certain individuals or been brought up in a certain way, and that's fair, I'm just afraid of how you'll treat those with addictions in your practice.

 

If Sfinch were my patient I would inquire what life experiences had led to his (bigoted and narrow-minded) views, and try to understand how his life experiences contributed to his views. I certainly hold my prerogative to have my own private views, as I've expressed numerous times; however, I will keep them to myself in interactions with my future patients, even if I think they are to blame for their own actions. I look at medicine from a means to ends utilitarian perspective, and try to take the values out of it so I can do what is best for the patient, which is my main value.

 

I'm sure the last two paragraphs should be enough to show that I am not a hypocrite, and if you yawn when you read my posts, why read them? I only respond because I enjoy writing and discussion and find the topic discussed to be fascinating, if I bore you, simply ignore me, it's not as if I'm taking this seriously.

 

It's funny you should mention secular humanism, as it doesn't pertain at all to this discussion. I'm also far from a secular humanist (I in fact dislike secular humanism because of it's moral relativism. However, I believe a strong set of values can be expressed through relative interpretation of the actions people undertake, and a regard for the underlying psychology behind those actions. On the other hand, I do subscribe to some post modern, deconstructivist views of reality, which you may confuse with secular humanism... but that doesn't mean we should throw the epistemological baby out with our dirty ontological bathwater, we may not have ultimate truth but we can derive information which can help us each develop our own normative truth) and have a very clear set of values, like I said before. In the end, I am pragmatic, and being a relativist is necessary in order to understand why our patients do what they do, it doesn't mean I myself subscribe to these values, but for the sake of my patients, I'm willing to try and understand.

 

If having an original idea makes me a judgemental bigot then I suppose I'm proud to be stupid, have fun navigating through all my pseudo-inteligentsia, post-modern, ostentatious, perceived secular humanistic language :), although, why you would bother if I'm such a bore is a question to me.

 

As well, if you have insomnia, there are many alternatives to obtaining prescription medications illegally, you could try melatonin, or talk to your doctor about a low dose anti-psychotic like risperidone, olanzapine, or aripiprazole. Zopiclone and eszopiclone have a lower addictive potential than traditional benzodizepines, so those could be alternatives, however, I strongly caution you against obtaining prescription medications without a doctors' supervision as these medications have serious adverse effects.

 

I love the arrogance that emanates from you, Muse, and your partner thebouque - because you can insult someone's way of life, insinuating that the life you've led is somehow more "real" (whatever the hell that means to you) than someone else's, and than literally less than a minute later go on a diatribe about how we as future doctors should give patients the benefit of the doubt.

 

But let's be clear here. I was under the impression that as future doctors, we were still allowed to have our own opinions outside of the work environment. Oh - this just in - pm101 isn't a hospital, so you're welcome to share you opinions (but please, end the hypocrisy - I'm literally yawning when I read your posts).

 

It must be really easy to be you, since every opinion you have is protected under the hospices of secular humanism and relativism which apparently have become the new religion. Why don't you make my day and go on another little didactic session about the horrors of organized religion or perhaps, you or a compatriot can reuse old faithful here and pull another one of my quotes out of context. Either way, I encourage you to make your posts even longer since it's getting late and my lack of illegal prescription drugs is making it hard for me to sleep (and nothing quite soothes the mind like reading your liberalist propaganda). And hey, maybe if you talk long enough you'll actually come up with an original idea I haven't heard before and then you'll REALLY make my day.

 

 

 

Thanks for the brilliant contribution, buddy.

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