Opening the flood gates: Foreign dentists can challenge the boards in 2011

[egydent80]

Hello everybody,

i feel that most of you feeling bad about the foreign dentists comming to train in Canada, but first you have to be proud of that as Canada is a big country & has the highest level of education & training..Second,you must be sure that if there's saturation in Canada from Canadian dentists ,then sure they will not accept any foreign trainee to come...

am sorry about my English language 'coz my mother tongue is Arabic.I'm a dentist & i wish to immigrate to Canada one day to learn ,study & work there..So, Am I welcome guys or what

wish to communicate with you & with all dentists all over the world..

thanks for this forum that allowed me to write in here..

[Molarman]

You need to realize that yes there is a saturation of dentists, but there is a shortage of GOOD dentists. We're coming into a generation that is seeing Canadian dental schools graduate less students with higher standards as opposed to the last few decades. Dental school isn't a predictor of professional success, just preparation. A huge factor why dentist salaries vary so greatly is that dental skill varies greatly. Although it may be overwhelming to look at the competition and see such vast numbers, quality dentists are one in a million and for those few who strive for perfection in their professional careers will have absolutely no problem with competing in a pool of peers largely content on mediocrity. Remember, there are both ends of the spectrum, in terms of intelligence and aptitude, in all careers, jobs, professions, etc. and unfortunately, dentistry is not an exception. I've met very few dentists who are highly successful, on a financial basis (bill +1mil a year), but they all have the same traits, determination and passion for perfection and an inability to accept anything less. Those dentists seem to have no trouble finding new patients. It's the vast majority who come into work everyday and don't do a terrible job, but don't really love their work that over saturate the field. Don't forget, we are still overcoming the 'I didn't get into med school so I became a dentist' stigma that dentistry used to have, but you'll find very quickly as you advance through your professional career that all dentists are not equal, some will have great success, others, unfortunately I've met a few, will be driven to bankruptcy. Its the quality of the work that defines your financial and professional success, regardless of how large your competing pool is.

[jack33]

Hello everybody,

i feel that most of you feeling bad about the foreign dentists comming to train in Canada, but first you have to be proud of that as Canada is a big country & has the highest level of education & training..Second,you must be sure that if there's saturation in Canada from Canadian dentists ,then sure they will not accept any foreign trainee to come...

am sorry about my English language 'coz my mother tongue is Arabic.I'm a dentist & i wish to immigrate to Canada one day to learn ,study & work there..So, Am I welcome guys or what

wish to communicate with you & with all dentists all over the world..

thanks for this forum that allowed me to write in here..

 

you'll pass the exam and get dental license and than won't find any dentist job.

[jack33]

1500 applicants were just in vancouver for the written exam, 2000 in toronto. And guess what, they all passed written exam. Not even a single failed foreign dentist. Now, they will setup shops and start working take patients and never bother asking for the deductibles. And keep scaming the insurance companies by redoing the fillings every two years. And worse, do fillings on completely healthy fine teeth, and still worse do root canals when a tooth doesn't even need a filling. Get ready for canada to become a big Ghetto area. Call your political leaders. Save your health and jobs.

[simplecomplex]

nvm10char...

[dentgent]

I would imagine it would be tough for many of these international dental graduates to have enough funds to set up shop in many areas of Canada. To qualify for loans I'd imagine that they'd first have to become citizens. I'm not sure but I would assume that this would not be an easy endeavour. I would also guess that established dentists would prefer to hire Canadian graduates as they can be sure about their accredited training.

[welldispersed]

Passing the three exams is a lot harder and more expensive than you think...especially when English is not your first language.

[Nick_P]

oh no ... This is so unfair!

[Teamplayer7]

I don't believe that 2000 foreign trained dentists have passed board exams and are now able to practice dentistry. There must be more tests they have to write..........I was under the impression that they would make the test so difficult that it would be extremely difficult to pass, limiting the amount of imported dentists. If not me are all ****ED! I just paid $300K for tuition, bye bye future

[dent2015]

I'm from a city in BC of approx 83,000 residents... I know that the majority of dentists here are getting up there in age, and looking for retirement in solid young partners to take over their practices. I'm not sure what the case is elsewhere, but I'm sure that there are many other similar cities which lack a dental school that are crying for dentists. It appears to me that the dentist saturation is happening only in the cities that harbour a dental school. I don't have any numbers or anything to back this up, but that's what I feel is happening.

 

I made sure to start networking with local dentists during my undergrad, and after my acceptance I was conditionally offered a partnership with one office I became quite close with. The way I see it, you gotta get out there and hit the pavement. There is PLENTY of opportunity out there. I wouldn't stress over the foreign trained dentist situation.

[MaVerick01]

I'm from a city in BC of approx 83,000 residents... I know that the majority of dentists here are getting up there in age, and looking for retirement in solid young partners to take over their practices. I'm not sure what the case is elsewhere, but I'm sure that there are many other similar cities which lack a dental school that are crying for dentists. It appears to me that the dentist saturation is happening only in the cities that harbour a dental school. I don't have any numbers or anything to back this up, but that's what I feel is happening.

 

I made sure to start networking with local dentists during my undergrad, and after my acceptance I was conditionally offered a partnership with one office I became quite close with. The way I see it, you gotta get out there and hit the pavement. There is PLENTY of opportunity out there. I wouldn't stress over the foreign trained dentist situation.

 

I'd have to agree with dent2015. I am also a BC resident and from what I can tell there is a saturation of dentists in the big cities (Vancouver area mostly). Personally, I am from a more rural area and I have already had several dentists ask me if I would be interested in an associateship when I graduate. So in the end, if you want to live in the city I would start networking as soon as you can because it might be difficult to find work, otherwise go do something a little more rural and dentists will be screaming to take you on.

[seer]

Well it's too early to assess the impact of this change to the Canadian job market as this is the first year CDA implemented this challenge process. However the possible prospect of thousands of foreign trained dentist entering the work force each year competing with local grads and dentists is concerning...

[dent2015]

Well it's too early to assess the impact of this change to the Canadian job market as this is the first year CDA implemented this challenge process. However the possible prospect of thousands of foreign trained dentist entering the work force each year competing with local grads and dentists is concerning...

 

Yeah, I understand the concept is concerning no doubt... My wife is in her first year of hygiene and there is a couple of FTD's who have failed the exam in her class. I agree it's still way to early to tell, but I find it hard to believe that there will be thousands of FTD's flooding our market every year. From the people i've talked to who've taken the exam, it's no cake walk. I guess we'll see though, I hope this issue comes up in some of our professional issues classes... should make for some interesting & heated discussion.

[champ]

Look at this guy, he can't even speak English properly and he wants to come to Canada to be a Dentist? I thought Dentists were supposed to be highly trained professionals who can write, speak and articulate immaculately.

 

If we have a shortage problem, then why instead of letting in all of these FTD (we don't have no idea how, or how well these people were actually trained - have to take an exam you say? so what people cheat on exams all the time) we (dental schools) accept more canadian bred students into dental schools. Even if they lower the bar just a little, there are still hundreds more who are more than qualified each year.

 

And all of you FTDs, why do you want to come here so bad? Would you like it if you worked all your life to get into profession A which has really high standards in your country and is extremely competitive, and then all of a sudden foreign trained strangers trained in profession A flooded your market and took away your jobs? I don't think so. Don't be a hypocrite.

 

I'm sure most of you agree that the shortage thing is a problem that can easily be solved by other means (ie: letting in more canadian bred students in canadian dental schools), and that something else is going on here (ie: corruption). Unbelievable.

 

I believe a lot of people share in your sentiment towards this subject but none would explicitly state it. Also, I don't belive there is any shortage of dentists in this country, especially in urban areas. Increasing the amount of cdn bred dentists would be great to fill the "apparent need" for more but the FTD route is supported both politically and also brings in alot more money for the country. From immigration, tests and licensing fees, even the increased spots for FTD's in canadian dental schools is heavilly favored to cushion schools operating budgets. Due to the huge amount that is charged for FTD tuition. Some cdn schools are even increasing the amount of FTD's accepted despite the fact they barely have an adequate patient base to meets the needs of their existing student base. So I guess im just saying IMO the FTD route is all about money and politics and it wont go away and increasing the amount of cdn students will not happen in the immediate future.

[CDent2010]

I believe a lot of people share in your sentiment towards this subject but none would explicitly state it. Also, I don't belive there is any shortage of dentists in this country, especially in urban areas. Increasing the amount of cdn bred dentists would be great to fill the "apparent need" for more but the FTD route is supported both politically and also brings in alot more money for the country. From immigration, tests and licensing fees, even the increased spots for FTD's in canadian dental schools is heavilly favored to cushion schools operating budgets. Due to the huge amount that is charged for FTD tuition. Some cdn schools are even increasing the amount of FTD's accepted despite the fact they barely have an adequate patient base to meets the needs of their existing student base. So I guess im just saying IMO the FTD route is all about money and politics and it wont go away and increasing the amount of cdn students will not happen in the immediate future.

 

You are absolutely right. This is the sad reality. I just hope that this doesn't negatively affect our future profession too much, all we can hope for is that they moderate closely the number of FTW that enter the country to practice with a consideration for the future dentistry market.

[dentgent]

I agree that it is way too early to predict what will happen with the supply of dentists and added competition.

 

What I think should be considered by every aspiring dentist is whether or not, regardless of passion for dentistry, it would be economically wise to attend a school in the US if you cannot get into Canada. This recent development may just be enough to push the opportunity cost against going this route and incurring all the debt associated with it.

[Ostracized]

In a thread on studentdoctor.net, it was mentioned that 820 people wrote the first test, that the average was 68% (75% is a pass), and that 70% of those who wrote it passed. Now, this is all message board hear-say - who knows if it is true. Still, even at the most conservative we can expect a 30-40% increase in new dentists each year in Canada.

[welldispersed]

Before the year 2000 foreign trained dentists had the opportunity to take these kinds of exams and qualify to work in Canada, but I can assure you that the passing rate is very low. Just look up older stats from the 90s and see how many FTD actually got their licence this way...sure wasn't a 30-40% increase in FTD! wow! come on people!

[simplecomplex]

Before the year 2000 foreign trained dentists had the opportunity to take these kinds of exams and qualify to work in Canada, but I can assure you that the passing rate is very low. Just look up older stats from the 90s and see how many FTD actually got their licence this way...sure wasn't a 30-40% increase in FTD! wow! come on people!

 

could u share where to look up those stats? thanks

[simplecomplex]

I read some articles and I don't think this is just about dentists. The government is planning to improve foreign credential recognition for physicians, nurses, engineers, physiotherapists, etc., etc. by 2012.

[rhymeswithorange]

10 characters

[alphacow]

The dean at my school confirmed that a large proportion of the foreign dentists taking the exam passed. Considering that only 500 dentists graduate every year in Canada, allowing even 50% of the test takers (~1500 this year) to pass would more than double the amount of dentists graduating each year. There is a huge saturation of dentists in larger cities such as vancouver and toronto....only 4 of the 40 2010 graduates found jobs in my city, the rest had to move to more rural areas.

 

The saturation of the dental market leads to unethical behaviours. MOST of the dental offices in vancouver no longer charge co-pay in order to attract patients. Alpine Dental, one of the larger dental offices in Burnaby, don't charge ANYTHING as long as your insurance is above 50%. When I was working there, they told me that to make up for the lost revenue, they just bill for more procedures. They are committing insurance fraud on a massive scale, but their patients think that other dentists are ripping them off by charging co-pay. This forces offices nearby to drop co-pay as well just to stay in business.

 

Specialists are also suffering. Because of the increased competition, GPs are no longer referring out procedures such as molar endos, perio surgery, orthodontics, and wisdom teeth extractions so they can keep the revenue in the office. Many of the foreign trained dentists are specialists in their country, so they don't refer out anything. Others are performing specialist procedures for a reduced fee. Also, many foreign dentists consider themselves to be the jack of all trades and will try to perform every procedure regardless of complexity.

 

Also, since Australian trained dentists can now work freely in Canada, many highschool students are going to Australia to do their dental degree since you do not need a bachelor's degree to enter dental school. We had one exchange student from Australia visiting our dental school last month. He's planning to move to canada after completing his BDS....at the tender age of 22!

[alphacow]

I would imagine it would be tough for many of these international dental graduates to have enough funds to set up shop in many areas of Canada. To qualify for loans I'd imagine that they'd first have to become citizens. I'm not sure but I would assume that this would not be an easy endeavour. I would also guess that established dentists would prefer to hire Canadian graduates as they can be sure about their accredited training.

 

Established dentists will hire the person that will accept the lowest wage. Plus, many dentists actually prefer to hire foreign trained dentists since they have much more experience than fresh graduates and can generate more revenue. Many dentists can no longer afford to higher associates in the first place since they don't have enough patients. Some of the recent graduates are working as hygienists to make ends meet.

[dent11]

There seems to be a political debate about this

http://www.cbc.ca/news/yourcommunity/2011/04/election-should-canada-make-it-easier-for-foreign-credentials-to-be-recognized.html

[seer]

The dean at my school confirmed that a large proportion of the foreign dentists taking the exam passed. Considering that only 500 dentists graduate every year in Canada, allowing even 50% of the test takers (~1500 this year) to pass would more than double the amount of dentists graduating each year. There is a huge saturation of dentists in larger cities such as vancouver and toronto....only 4 of the 40 2010 graduates found jobs in my city, the rest had to move to more rural areas.

 

The saturation of the dental market leads to unethical behaviours. MOST of the dental offices in vancouver no longer charge co-pay in order to attract patients. Alpine Dental, one of the larger dental offices in Burnaby, don't charge ANYTHING as long as your insurance is above 50%. When I was working there, they told me that to make up for the lost revenue, they just bill for more procedures. They are committing insurance fraud on a massive scale, but their patients think that other dentists are ripping them off by charging co-pay. This forces offices nearby to drop co-pay as well just to stay in business.

 

Specialists are also suffering. Because of the increased competition, GPs are no longer referring out procedures such as molar endos, perio surgery, orthodontics, and wisdom teeth extractions so they can keep the revenue in the office. Many of the foreign trained dentists are specialists in their country, so they don't refer out anything. Others are performing specialist procedures for a reduced fee. Also, many foreign dentists consider themselves to be the jack of all trades and will try to perform every procedure regardless of complexity.

 

Also, since Australian trained dentists can now work freely in Canada, many highschool students are going to Australia to do their dental degree since you do not need a bachelor's degree to enter dental school. We had one exchange student from Australia visiting our dental school last month. He's planning to move to canada after completing his BDS....at the tender age of 22!

 

I thought it's a series of 3 exams. Was your dean talking about high passing rate for the first part of the exams or all 3?

Only 4 found job in the city?!...