Australia medical school pros/cons?

[Cappuccino]

Hey all, I think we need a sticky for this one. Haven't put much thought into the Australia or Ireland route for medical school but after doing some research I'd like to confirm with you guys with what is true.

First, I'd like to say that I'm a HUGEEE Aussie fan. I personally think living in Australia would be WILD and amazing. I've also wanted to leave Toronto (Ontario) for school for the longest time. Therefore all my research has gone towards Australian schools as opposed to Ireland.

 

Australian schools

 

Pro

- Its in Australia, Steve Irwin fan anyone? I'd spend everyday in the outback/anywhere with wildlife.

- From the pictures I've seen, city life looks at par or perhaps greater than Toronto, all depends on the mentality.

 

Con

- Jesus f*** its expensive. How the hell do you finance something like that?

- And of course, after being 300,000 in debt, what job are you guaranteed?

- If you want to come back to Canada, you're probably looking at a family physician residency.

 

Iffys

Here I'd like to discuss what I'm not sure of. 1) I love Australia and would consider living there for an extended period of time. CAVEAT: I've always considered myself a free spirit and see myself living in any place in the world practicing medicine. So that being said, I'd love to work in Australia after graduating. However, from what I've learned (dont know if its true, hence the question..) Australia is so full of medical students that they don't even have residencies for them. On top of that, I've also heard that they accept international students based on them paying the fees. And even moreso, having less residencies and more students means that you will NEVER as an international student secure a local spot. Again, I'm totally new to the whole study abroad thing but I beleive you need to have a green card? (is that the right colour?) in order to study abroad, let alone work. And when you graduate you need to be a citizen to work in Australia. Therefore, it would be safe to conclude that you could not practice in Australia upon graduation. And after that, you'll need to come back to Canada, re-study for the boards, and take them. Even then, I think it will be almost impossible to gain access to Canadian boards in the future.. I'm cynical and since I'd be looking at graduation in 2015 then I'm assuming in the year 2015 Canada will be full of Medical doctors.

 

Again, I wouldn't mind practicing anywhere else in the world, but is it true you need citizenship to practice? If not, you're probably working at an intern being paid .. what... 30-40k a year? That will only cover interest on your massive loan. Anyways, I hope I come across as naive so that someone, hopefully an optimist, can flame me into thinking that going to Australia would be amazing.

[champ]

This is just my two cents, I looked into austrailia briefly..being a somewhat sketchy ontario candidate, with a low verbal score and excellent other sections and a pretty high omsas gpa. I came to the conclusion its a HUGE gamble... huge amount of debt... prolly a very low chance of an internship as the years go on, more and more will graduate from austrailia med and the number of internship spots have not been increasing so the amount of unmatching internationals will undoubtedly increase drasticly. Thus decreasing ur odds of matchin being an international, who knows what the aus gov will do but by the time they do something it wont be in time for someone starting next year i bet..

 

why not try applying to the USA, it sounds doable..unless your mcat and gpa is really low? .Its prolly just as expensive I bet but at least it would be that much easier getting a residency in the USA than from applying with an education from austrailia..

 

Either way there are some really knowledgeable pm101er's that can prolly steer you in a better direction that have lived the aussie route and can fill you in on their personal experiences and could even correct any mistakes I might have posted above.

[hking03]

First off,

 

consider the different schools in australia- find out exactly how much they cost each year... then find out what banks here will offer lines of credit for international students... i believe there is a thread on that.

 

speak with the schools you are interested in- either by phone or email- find out what they require, if you have a shot, what prospects they have... what their application cycle is like- i believe you may have missed most/some of the application cycles for 2011 entry...

 

the average med student will walk away with 125k in debt (in canada)... so if you have double that it's not the end of the world... just means you may be living with ma and pa for a while when you come back. just a quick note on repaying your debt... a Canadian FM blogger noted that she paid back about 70k of student loan debt in just under 2 years, plus she bought a house, went on ridiculous vacations, got married and lived a pretty sweet life... so, don't worry about paying back your debt- it will happen, whether you like it or not.

 

as for coming back- more options than FM are out there for IMG's... you just have to understand that some residencies are more competitive and you may not qualify because of the IMG status. However, FM is undergoing a lot of changes (from what I understand) and can open doors to a lot of cool things.

 

as for Canada in 2015- unless every school starts pumping out 300-400 grads a year we are still going to have a shortage...

[leviathan]

Hahaha, if your only conceptions of Australia are the outback and Steve Irwin, you might want to look into the country a bit more.

 

Having said that, and not knowing much about the country myself, I don't think you will find any surprises about Australia that you don't like. Seems like it would just be a warmer sunnier Canada. You'd get a lot of derm experience in clerkship, that's for sure.

[Fueren]

After medical school you become an intern in Australia, which is pretty much the same as a first-year resident in North America. As an intern you make between 56-61k a year before overtime, depending on what state you will be practising in. As you will be expected to work a bunch of overtime, you will make roughly 80k a year, right after you graduate. However the internship crisis is definitely something you would have to consider, as about 100 international students were left without a spot this year. It is expected this number will increase, but the government seems to be interested in the issue, and the Australian Medical Association is making International students one of their top priorities, as there is still a substantial doctor shortage in Australia. Basically you need to have back-up plans (like an American partner or EU passport ). Australia has a similar training program to New Zealand and Scotland, so you can graduate from an Australian program and go to those countries if you're totally SoL.

Most of the programs are 4 years long. I'm currently paying 42k a year with two more years left. Most universities seem to be capped at 5% rises in tuition per year. Melbourne and Sydney are much more expensive (I think ~60k?).

If you graduate and get an internship in Australia you can get a Visa that lets you work for 18 months with little hassle. You can also apply for Permanent Residency once you become certified as doctors are on the Skilled Occupations List and Occupations in Demand for the Department of Immigration and Citizenship. So you can definitely practice in Australia.

The major thing against Australia is the internship crisis. If they get that sorted out there isn't a lot going against it. Their labour laws are much more friendly, and so you start off with 4 weeks of vacation, and you are well-compensated for your work. Established GPs get about $125-200k, while consultants/specialists get $200-500k depending on what they do and how good they are. It's also far away from Europe which makes travelling there a totally *****, but close to Southeast Asia so you can get some pretty cheap trips in!

Working part-time here is pretty easy, and they pay very well. Retail starts at $20/hour, my research assistant job is $30/hour (with the benefit of "free" printing!). Their cities are cities, not much more to say about them. Their coffee is better... way better. The dollar is high right now, but was 75 cents two years ago so depending on when you transfer money over you can save a couple thousand...

That's about all I can think of right now. PM me if you have any more questions!

[icewine]

The major thing against Australia is the internship crisis. If they get that sorted out there isn't a lot going against it. Their labour laws are much more friendly, and so you start off with 4 weeks of vacation, and you are well-compensated for your work. Established GPs get about $125-200k, while consultants/specialists get $200-500k depending on what they do and how good they are. It's also far away from Europe which makes travelling there a totally *****, but close to Southeast Asia so you can get some pretty cheap trips in!

 

++

 

In general internship allocation is probably the biggest professional concern amongst the international students; however, if you do decide to come to Australia to study med then picking the right school/state to go to can help heaps. South Australia didn't have the huge increase in med students that Queensland/NSW did so there isn't as much pressure, relatively speaking, on internship spots in SA/NT at the moment. Also, international students in SA have higher priority over international students interstate for SA/NT internship spots. AFAIK current 4th year Flinders international students who applied for internship this year (starting internship in Jan 2011) all got spots. Of course, no one can predict the internship situation 4-5 years down the road but IMO I don't think it will be as bad as some predict, at least in SA/NT. Bottom line though: one shouldn't count on things changing for the better in terms of internship, so just keep that in mind if you do decide to come.

[champ]

So what would be the better Austrailian med schools to apply to? regarding better chances at internship positions? sounds like queensland is not promising.

[Cappuccino]

Thanks for all the replies.

 

Now, more questions.

 

1) I'm looking at Melbourne and the other 60,000 CDN/USA schools (Assuming dollar parity) and have tacked on a $15,000 for living expenses, totalling 75,000 CDN a YEAR. Now, I'm from a middle class family and am sure that I will not be able to secure a loan of anything near the $300,000 I need. Ontop of that, I worked out that If i were to take a second UG (Which i REALLY don't want to- If i do, it'll be a fast track 2 year program) I'll pay a fraction of the cost- 80,000 CDN for tuition (I'm assuming 0 living expenses as I would probably stay with rents- although i rather not ). So how the hell do you secure a loan for that much? Money-wise, the second UG degree sounds more appealing, but I'd love, love to experience something completely different. And like how another poster commented that the loans will be paid off either way, I'm happy with that. I'm not looking to make a killing working as a doctor, It's a job that I'd love to work 9-5.

 

2) Seems like the internship crisis is a problem there. Which schools/areas are unaffected? And since internships are hard to come by, does that mean only the less-sought for (I'm assuming, they are the Family physician and IM)? As of now, I'm most interested in psychiatry, maybe, maybe, surgery or dermatology. What are the chances of a Canadian landing one of those internships?

 

3) How are the Canadian-Aussies enjoying their lives there?

 

Thanks so much for the information!

[HBP]

Huntsman Spider.

[Fueren]

So what would be the better Austrailian med schools to apply to? regarding better chances at internship positions? sounds like queensland is not promising.

 

International students in both Queensland and NSW have been left out of internship spots. I would guess Victoria would be next as it's also got a lot of schools and is more popular with students in general. Western Australia, South Australia and the Australian Capital Territory would probably be your best bets, so that's UWA, Flinders, ANU and University of Adelaide. But honestly, in four years a lot could change. There is also a school opening up in Darwin either next year or the year after.

[Fueren]

Thanks for all the replies.

 

Now, more questions.

 

1) I'm looking at Melbourne and the other 60,000 CDN/USA schools (Assuming dollar parity) and have tacked on a $15,000 for living expenses, totalling 75,000 CDN a YEAR. Now, I'm from a middle class family and am sure that I will not be able to secure a loan of anything near the $300,000 I need. Ontop of that, I worked out that If i were to take a second UG (Which i REALLY don't want to- If i do, it'll be a fast track 2 year program) I'll pay a fraction of the cost- 80,000 CDN for tuition (I'm assuming 0 living expenses as I would probably stay with rents- although i rather not ). So how the hell do you secure a loan for that much? Money-wise, the second UG degree sounds more appealing, but I'd love, love to experience something completely different. And like how another poster commented that the loans will be paid off either way, I'm happy with that. I'm not looking to make a killing working as a doctor, It's a job that I'd love to work 9-5.

 

2) Seems like the internship crisis is a problem there. Which schools/areas are unaffected? And since internships are hard to come by, does that mean only the less-sought for (I'm assuming, they are the Family physician and IM)? As of now, I'm most interested in psychiatry, maybe, maybe, surgery or dermatology. What are the chances of a Canadian landing one of those internships?

 

3) How are the Canadian-Aussies enjoying their lives there?

 

Thanks so much for the information!

 

 

1) The 60k a year is pretty harsh. It sounds like Melbourne and Sydney are pricing themselves out of many Canadian's ranges. I got a line of credit with Scotiabank for 50k a year, and have so far put 40k on it for 2 years. I got a job that so far has paid me about 17k (AUD) over the last year and 2 months which has really helped with living expenses. Also, you can get student loans through the Canadian federal and provincial governments (I've got 16k (CAN) a year from BC). I was also able to save up about 20k by working for a year before coming here. That's at a 41k (AUD) a year University though, and the dollar was a lot lower before (80-90 cents).

 

2) Eventually all states will become affected as NSW/Queensland Australian domestic students will elect to stay in the state they are studying, as opposed to going back to their home states as those states are already at capacity. Everyone has to do an internship here in a hospital, and you don't start specialising until after your internship year. So it doesn't really matter where you do it, as long as you do it.

 

3) Life is great here! Australians and Canadians get along very well and our cultures our incredibly similar. They will call hockey 'ice hockey' though, and if you ever mention anything about hockey, they will think you are talking about field hockey. They are a little more... culturally insensitive than Canada, although that could very likely just be my personal experience. They drink a lot. Like, a lot. It's perfectly acceptable to see girls in really nice looking dresses be completely hammered in the middle of the day, especially race days (like the recent Melbourne Cup). You'll miss home, but if you pay off your tuition with a points credit card you can get flights home for pretty cheap! They have really nice beaches, but it gets surprisingly cold here in winter, and they don't have the most efficient heating systems (furnaces and hot water tanks outside when it's 0 degrees = lots of wasted energy).

[Scotty]

Hey Fueren,

 

How are you making out with the Internship situation? Does it look more promising since you are in the front lines?

 

Aussies / Canucks are a great combo... I had to give up my "ice hockey" and play aussie rules footie... What a cultural shock indeed ;0

 

I love to hear your experience as you reach towards graduation... I am looking at coming down and trying it myself...