Nursing as a Pre-Req for Med School Applicants

[dstevens]

Hello All,

 

I am starting this topic for those who are considering Med School and are wondering about the best route to take in terms of undergraduate degree, IMO.

I am currently in nursing with aspirations to go to Medical School, I will discuss the Pros and Cons about nursing along with other experiences.

 

Pros

By far, there is no better way to attain hospital experience and patient experience than nursing. additionally it is the only undergraduate degree where you are allows to perform medical skills such as Injections, Vitals, IVs, Assessments, and Drug Knowledge, Dosing and route administration, mental health, drug seeking behaviours, side effects etc

You get to experience the pitfalls of hospital work, lots of stress ( the sleepless nights wondering if you screwed up somehow) the long hours ( yes I do 12 hour shifts- though physicians are longer in terms of work hours) dangers regarding personal safety and infection, contamination etc.

You learn, through observation, how physicians write orders, referrals, perform assessments, basically what a physician does day to day regarding patient care. Not to mention developing bedside manner.

 

Over the course of my degree I will undergo approximately 1500 clinical hours ranging from PSW work to ICU nursing with complex physiology and demanding stress levels. Nursing finally allows you the chance to say to yourself " can I handle working as a Doctor". I'm not making a correlation between physicians and nurses but if you can't handle the stress of nursing, you are going to fail miserably as a doctor.

 

In relation to MCAT preparation we receive

microbiology, pathophysiology, anatomy, physiology, public health, epidemiology,and 4 electives in my course which you can put towards physics, chemistry and other sciences. nursing is heavily subjective, therefore I am literally writing 5-6 essays a semester plus all test answers must be written in sentence form if there is a written component- so it does slightly affect writing skills.

 

It provides and excellent back up if you just can't get into medical school and you can explore further options such as nurse practitioner ( adult, paediatric, PHC or anesthesiology, which has recently opened in ontario).

 

Finally, for a joke, you can't meet better girls than in nursing.

 

 

Cons

I feel, in direct relation to MCAT prep, it is sub standard. I personally recommend a biology degree. This will allow you take first year generic courses and electives where you can put in your Physics, English, and Chemistry but especially in 3rd year and 4th, if your honours, you can get into the good medically relevant stuff: microbiology, pathogenic bacteriology, parasitism, genetics, physiology and anatomy, laboratory components, research classes, that give you credit towards your degree, just to name a few.

 

These classes are not heavily based on subjectivity, therefore allowing the potential for higher marks.

 

In summary, as you can tell I am slightly biased towards nursing mainly because I have more knowledge. I am currently taking additional courses to supplement my education in preparation for the MCAT and to enhance my knowledge base for personal reasons over the summer, they don't affect my summer socially in anyway.

It is my belief that if you are a nurse first you will be a better doctor only because you have a subjective base; in no way am I making a correlation for intelligence and critical thinking, everyone is equal.

 

I am not going to say which route should take, that is up to you but I will tell you that a total of 10 people have dropped nursing who said they wanted to go to medical school, they are completely different fields but they do share many similarities, Conversely I really enjoy nursing and could do it for the rest of my life, but I'd rather be a physician, a general internist specifically, and many individuals in my program are in the same boat.

 

Hope this provides fuel for advice and discussion.

 

Regards,

Derek, BScN student

Hopeful future physician.

[DonGeo]

Also, due to clinical rotations (which are pass/fail), nursing grads are not eligible for many of the GPA weighting formulas that make it easier to apply to some schools (e.g. U of T, Western, Queens). Most of the courses are ridiculous to the point of mild depression among students, especially by third year, where the material is obscure, the test questions are vague, and final exams often feel like playing the lottery. My undergrad in nursing was thoroughly disparaging.

 

That being said, if you can make it through the four years of schooling, the clinical practice is extremely rewarding, a reliable source of income, and, in my opinion, excellent preparation for medical school. I've been very happy working ever since I graduated

 

DonGeo

 

An example of a nursing exam question:

 

You walk into a patient's room and notice he is bleeding profusely from his surgical incision, you:

 

a) Apply pressure to the wound

Press the Code Blue bell

c) Run a litre of saline and page the most responsible physician

d) Validate his feelings

 

You would be surprised how often the correct answer is D......

[medulla]

I'm so glad someone has posted about this. It makes me feel reassured, and I'm sure I'm not the only one Ever since I decided to go down the "non-traditional" nursing path to medical school, I've encountered so much negativity from people around me that it has made me doubt whether it was the right decision.

 

Thanks for the insight!

[dstevens]

 

You walk into a patient's room and notice he is bleeding profusely from his surgical incision, you:

 

a) Apply pressure to the wound

Press the Code Blue bell

c) Run a litre of saline and page the most responsible physician

d) Validate his feelings

 

You would be surprised how often the correct answer is D......

 

HAHAHA! so true I actually just saw 6 questions with that as an answer on my exam 2 days ago, guess what I picked??

I feel nursing is a great pre med program but one definitely can't get as high of marks as say a more objective course such as biology

[medisforme]

Another negative about BScN is that the credits alloted for some courses are completely disproportionate to the number of hours required. I remember several courses I took where we would recieve 4-5 credits but that involved minimum 14 hours of practicum/clinical work per week, on top of the clinical prep and pre-clinical/clinical assignments (at least this was the situation at my school). It makes it very difficult to take any supplemental courses and/or have much of a social life during the year.

These are often the pass/fail courses someone mentioned; so basically one is often taking in excess of a typical full course load but because the class is pass/fail they may not be eligible for full-time weighting forumulas.

[PockyupNose]

I actually had a similar question recently....and no way is validating his feeling the correct answer.........................

 

even if you put nursing theory into play, and use, lets say jean watson's theory (theory of caring, and the feeling bull****) theory to answer the question.....thats still a very far fetched answer....

[Renin]

I don't know anything about nursing school; but I just wanted to chime in that I believe that the clinical skills that nurses have are excellent and I am very thankful for the wonderful nurses I have working on my team

 

PS:

The answer to that question is clearly D

[Mars_Bound]

Also, due to clinical rotations (which are pass/fail), nursing grads are not eligible for many of the GPA weighting formulas that make it easier to apply to some schools (e.g. U of T, Western, Queens). Most of the courses are ridiculous to the point of mild depression among students, especially by third year, where the material is obscure, the test questions are vague, and final exams often feel like playing the lottery. My undergrad in nursing was thoroughly disparaging.

 

That being said, if you can make it through the four years of schooling, the clinical practice is extremely rewarding, a reliable source of income, and, in my opinion, excellent preparation for medical school. I've been very happy working ever since I graduated

 

DonGeo

 

An example of a nursing exam question:

 

You walk into a patient's room and notice he is bleeding profusely from his surgical incision, you:

 

a) Apply pressure to the wound

Press the Code Blue bell

c) Run a litre of saline and page the most responsible physician

d) Validate his feelings

 

You would be surprised how often the correct answer is D......

 

 

so this answer would be D)?

i could see it making sense cuz you would need to check if the patient is conscious and able to comprehend whats happening... then you would apply pressure while calling for help.

code blue is for tachychardia, no?

[Mars_Bound]

HAHAHA! so true I actually just saw 6 questions with that as an answer on my exam 2 days ago, guess what I picked??

I feel nursing is a great pre med program but one definitely can't get as high of marks as say a more objective course such as biology

 

so nursing is heavily subjective then? there is no right or wrong answer? mainly essays?

 

the problem with objective courses like Biology is that even if you have a high GPA, medicine still is and will always remain a very competitive field. So if you do nursing and you dont get into med school , you can still work in a job that will put you in the hospital setting and give you the clinical experience needed, while paying you at minimum $3000 bi-weekly... so over 6 grand a month, well 4 Grand if you just starting. Heck thats decent. Much more than most people make. If you do Biology, then you cant get a very meaningful job, you could be a lab tech but that pays around $14-$18 per hour.... so nursing seems a better bet.

 

anyone agree?

[Mars_Bound]

Another negative about BScN is that the credits alloted for some courses are completely disproportionate to the number of hours required. I remember several courses I took where we would recieve 4-5 credits but that involved minimum 14 hours of practicum/clinical work per week, on top of the clinical prep and pre-clinical/clinical assignments (at least this was the situation at my school). It makes it very difficult to take any supplemental courses and/or have much of a social life during the year.

These are often the pass/fail courses someone mentioned; so basically one is often taking in excess of a typical full course load but because the class is pass/fail they may not be eligible for full-time weighting forumulas.

 

In this regards, are there elective courses nurses should do in 1st or 2nd year to help in getting into med school?

[vita brevis]

I doubt that there's a specific answer to that question, other than choose anything that your heart desires!

I mean, there are different reasons for you to take electives. Either you have a genuine interest in those subjects and you are committed to doing well, or you are only using them to boost up your gpa, in which care you wouldn't really care if you like them or not, but more so that you can ace the exams.

It seems to me that most, if not all, medschools don't really care what you take as electives as long as you do well in them.

[boomboompow]

so nursing is heavily subjective then? there is no right or wrong answer? mainly essays?

 

the problem with objective courses like Biology is that even if you have a high GPA, medicine still is and will always remain a very competitive field. So if you do nursing and you dont get into med school , you can still work in a job that will put you in the hospital setting and give you the clinical experience needed, while paying you at minimum $3000 bi-weekly... so over 6 grand a month, well 4 Grand if you just starting. Heck thats decent. Much more than most people make. If you do Biology, then you cant get a very meaningful job, you could be a lab tech but that pays around $14-$18 per hour.... so nursing seems a better bet.

 

anyone agree?

 

Just out of curiosity, I was wondering where you are getting the $3000 bi-weekly salary from? Just because I recently read that a nurse typically makes 60 000 when starting and the growth is usually to around 80 000. Not trying to bash the profession at all, I love nurses! I just wanted to know because I am trying to decide what programs to apply to.

[Immy]

http://www.ona.org/faqs.html#f16

[DonGeo]

The problem is that the material is taught as being subjective, the professor usually stressing that there is no right answer to these questions, and then the exam is multiple choice.

 

After graduating, I worked for a year in emerg and I've enjoyed nursing very much, although it's true that there is a lot of stress. I have learned many clinical skills, especially in the way of physical assessment, lab-work, ecg's, basic clinical skills (e.g. phlebotomy), bedside manner, and also how to work in a healthcare team.

 

That being said, the education, mine at Ryerson University, was atrocious, and drove me to my wits end. I hope there will be big changes in nursing education in the years to come.

 

DonGeo

Mac Med 2014

[vita brevis]

The problem is that the material is taught as being subjective, the professor usually stressing that there is no right answer to these questions, and then the exam is multiple choice.

 

After graduating, I worked for a year in emerg and I've enjoyed nursing very much, although it's true that there is a lot of stress. I have learned many clinical skills, especially in the way of physical assessment, lab-work, ecg's, basic clinical skills (e.g. phlebotomy), bedside manner, and also how to work in a healthcare team.

 

That being said, the education, mine at Ryerson University, was atrocious, and drove me to my wits end. I hope there will be big changes in nursing education in the years to come.

 

DonGeo

Mac Med 2014

 

Seems to me that it's a common problem across different nursing schools...at least this is the feeling that many classmates and I share at my school

[lynx7]

The problem is that the material is taught as being subjective, the professor usually stressing that there is no right answer to these questions, and then the exam is multiple choice.

 

After graduating, I worked for a year in emerg and I've enjoyed nursing very much, although it's true that there is a lot of stress. I have learned many clinical skills, especially in the way of physical assessment, lab-work, ecg's, basic clinical skills (e.g. phlebotomy), bedside manner, and also how to work in a healthcare team.

 

That being said, the education, mine at Ryerson University, was atrocious, and drove me to my wits end. I hope there will be big changes in nursing education in the years to come.

 

DonGeo

Mac Med 2014

 

Do you find that the material is too subjective to even be able to predict whether or not one could earn a high enough GPA for med school? Do you think the marks earned in a degree such as biology are FAR more easier to predict than nursing? How much subjectivity in grading is there really?

[DonGeo]

I think that if you put the work in, it will be easier to get high grades in nursing than in the hard sciences. The challenge is not to lose your focus and motivation despite the absurdity of the tasks.

 

DonGeo

[Dratos]

I graduated nursing and I have the same aspirations as you. I have done a lot of thinking and I'm very postive nursing does not prepare you effectively for the MCAT ( if at all). What I have decided to do is enrol in a totally new program - bachelors of science. Since I only did the practical nursing route I dont feel compelled to start again. What I believe is that i can take the experience of my nursing, allow it to drive my aspirations, learn from the study habits I maintained, and just push forward with whatever it takes to get into med school. Maybe nursing didnt prepare my for med, but it prepared me with what to 'kind of expect' from post secondary institutions. I understand university is going to be more challenging but I will have a leg up than someone who completed high school.

 

On the other hand you could always just take a couple years to get the pre-reqs for med admission. I believe your going to need a full course load if you decide this route.

 

Goodluck, let me know what you decide. Maybe we can bounce ideas off of eachother!

 

-D

[medisforme]

From personal experience, I would say that getting good grades in nursing is a lot harder than in the "hard sciences," mainly d/t to the extreme subjectivity of a lot of the subject matter being taught and not necessarily because the subject matter is so much harder. I found it much easier to study for an organic chem final than a nursing partnerships final.

[PharmMed325]

I graduated from nursing at Mcgill, and what you guys say is true.

At mcgill we have to take the 'hard sciences' because they are core courses. You take the same pharmacology and pathology and physiology and biology and genetics as the students doing the bachelors of science program

 

Even tho these courses were really hard, I did SO MUCH BETTER than in the core nursing classes ( except for clinical). yes they are hard, yes there is a lot of material, but like everyone said there is only ONE good answer, theres only so much a dopamine receptor does..

When your in a nursing exam about death and palliative care, god knows what the good answer is when they're asking you what you would say or what you would do.

I took all my electives in chemistry and pharmacology, and I don't regret it. Even tho you learn a lot in therapeutic relationship classes and all of it, its really hard to get good grades.

[hexonu]

I have to slightly disagree, although you're right that nursing is highly subjective it's entirely possible to attain high marks. Yes, most of the time there really is no right answer however I found that the more times you read the rationale to the questions the easier it becomes to answer the question correctly.

 

Also in no way did Nursing prepare me for the MCAT, the courses we took only scratched the surface and when I wanted to delve deeper I was met with "thats all you need to know dont worry about it"

 

Either way I graduated from the U of Manitoba and if I had a choice I would def not do nursing as my undergrad degree, the faculty is extremely clicky and teachers tend to chose favorites somewhat like a bizarre girls club only. If I had another chance I would do a biology degree or something. One positive note is that I'm working on a psych ward and getting paid up the poopchute.