Why medical school should be free (NYT Op/Ed)

[ploughboy]

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/29/opinion/29bach.html

 

Hmm...

 

And that's all I can think to say about that.

[Prion]

Why not put the money into making FM a more attractive specialty(which seems to me to be a more direct solution) than restructuring the education payment system that may or may not end up having a large impact?

[psychoswim]

My dad sent me this link this morning.. seems like a pretty twisted way of probably not achieving anything? I told my dad maybe it wasn't all about the money but probably more about what FM offers to the physicians.

[thehumanmacbook]

Did they try increasing wages for FM and other sub-related? Or will that create too much strife amongst the system

[Jochi1543]

My dad sent me this link this morning.. seems like a pretty twisted way of probably not achieving anything? I told my dad maybe it wasn't all about the money but probably more about what FM offers to the physicians.

 

I'd have to disagree. If this were really about what FM offers to physicians, we'd have the exact same situation on this side of the border. But we have a pretty solid proportion of medical students going into family medicine here, and not just because they matched into it as a 2nd choice. There are a lot of people in my class who really want family med. After exploring a few specialties, I honestly can't imagine doing anything else, either.

 

In the US, some specialist nurses get paid more than family docs, so money certainly becomes an issue. I hear figures like $100,000/yr for some GPs there, which is NOT enough to pay off $250,000 in debt. And for many people, the debt is even higher - some med schools are charging close to 50 grand a year, and then you have 4 years' worth of living expenses, plus very likely another 100 grand (or more!) in undergrad loans....good luck ever paying that off when you take home maybe $70K and hope to have a family someday. Family practice there isn't that drastically different from family med here, so the GP crisis they are having there certainly can't be explained by the fact that family med is not exciting enough.

[psychoswim]

I'd have to disagree. If this were really about what FM offers to physicians, we'd have the exact same situation on this side of the border. But we have a pretty solid proportion of medical students going into family medicine here, and not just because they matched into it as a 2nd choice. There are a lot of people in my class who really want family med. After exploring a few specialties, I honestly can't imagine doing anything else, either.

 

In the US, some specialist nurses get paid more than family docs, so money certainly becomes an issue. I hear figures like $100,000/yr for some GPs there, which is NOT enough to pay off $250,000 in debt. And for many people, the debt is even higher - some med schools are charging close to 50 grand a year, and then you have 4 years' worth of living expenses, plus very likely another 100 grand (or more!) in undergrad loans....good luck ever paying that off when you take home maybe $70K and hope to have a family someday. Family practice there isn't that drastically different from family med here, so the GP crisis they are having there certainly can't be explained by the fact that family med is not exciting enough.

 

Ah sorry, my mistake in how I expressed my thoughts. I didn't want to imply that FM isn't as exciting at all, more the all around conditions maybe? Which I guess brings us back to money whoops. I know many GPs that absolutely love what they are doing, and have a few friends that chose FM as their first choice for matching. Anyways I didn't know there was such a difference in salary in the US so they definitely have an issue there.

[Jochi1543]

Ah sorry, my mistake in how I expressed my thoughts. I didn't want to imply that FM isn't as exciting at all, more the all around conditions maybe? Which I guess brings us back to money whoops. I know many GPs that absolutely love what they are doing, and have a few friends that chose FM as their first choice for matching. Anyways I didn't know there was such a difference in salary in the US so they definitely have an issue there.

 

Oh, I see what you mean now, I guess I just misinterpreted what you said.

[psychoswim]

Oh, I see what you mean now, I guess I just misinterpreted what you said.

 

Nah it's my fault in a way too Sometimes your thoughts don't come out right on paper.

[xkittens]

One of the NDP's promises in the last federal election was to pay off all medical school debts if you chose family medicine as your specialty.

Too bad Harper got re-elected.

[thebouque]

One of the NDP's promises in the last federal election was to pay off all medical school debts if you chose family medicine as your specialty.

Too bad Harper got re-elected.

 

That would've been one of the biggest injustice in the history of medical education.

[A-Stark]

While I realize they are using a looser definition of primary care than we would usually think about in Canada, I think the plan is grossly unfair and exploitative. Essentially, they would have (for example) surgery residents work for free, foregoing several years of any salary, while residents in "primary care" still get paid. Residents in any program are doing a lot of work and service and there are fairly obvious reasons why they draw salaries and medical students do not. I consider this an odious and deeply inequitable policy.

[apache]

i'm thinking fm, i'd be down for that, injustice occurs everywhere, deal with it

 

That would've been one of the biggest injustice in the history of medical education.

[xkittens]

i'm thinking fm, i'd be down for that, injustice occurs everywhere, deal with it

 

lool i wish there was a like button here like facebook's

[some gurl]

Once again, your post is unbelievable and disgusting. To believe that you are willing to perpetuate injustice because "injustice occurs everywhere" is bordering insanity....Is this how everything works for you? you know, murders and rapes "occur everywhere" so would you "be down for that"?? But it's okay because you'd tell them, "deal with it"...

 

someone please remove and block him from the forum

 

Edit: exchanged "blog" for 'forum'. excuse the word slip - - Thanks to aaronjw for noticing

 

i'm thinking fm, i'd be down for that, injustice occurs everywhere, deal with it

[aaronjw]

Once again, your post is unbelievable and disgusting. To believe that you are willing to perpetuate injustice because "injustice occurs everywhere" is bordering insanity....Is this how everything works for you? you know, murders and rapes "occur everywhere" so would you "be down for that"?? But it's okay because you'd tell them, "deal with it"...

 

someone please remove and block him from the blog

 

This is a forum, not a blog. FYI

[igeorgex]

Once again, your post is unbelievable and disgusting. To believe that you are willing to perpetuate injustice because "injustice occurs everywhere" is bordering insanity....Is this how everything works for you? you know, murders and rapes "occur everywhere" so would you "be down for that"?? But it's okay because you'd tell them, "deal with it"...

 

someone please remove and block him from the forum

 

Edit: exchanged "blog" for 'forum'. excuse the word slip - - Thanks to aaronjw for noticing

 

you must not know muse very well.. despite his "bad-boy attitude" (haha) he's got a good grasp of many complex issues, but if you haven't been around long you might not know that.

 

he's just ****-disturbing, just keep in mind he's joking. no need to get all riled up

[thebouque]

Haha even though muse's comment was directed at me, I think it would be a loss if he was banned. However I still think that it'd be a huge injustice and it should never happen even though injustice occurs everywhere.

[dokta]

I read this the other day and tend to disagree, but any thoughts I have are from the Canadian system.

 

One advantage I've seen of going into FM vs specialty (in Canada) is that you finish faster and begin earning faster. Rather than making your $70k/year as a PGY3, you get to begin practicing and earn well above that. But if you're only making $100k in FM in the US, it feels like a much less attractive option...

 

Anyways, I think the idea is a terrible one. Not getting paid for 5-6 years as a resident is unrealistic. $50k a year as it is, is enough to make a modest living, not much more.

[MarathonRunner]

One of the NDP's promises in the last federal election was to pay off all medical school debts if you chose family medicine as your specialty.

Too bad Harper got re-elected.

 

Then you would have had people who didn't really want FM going into it just to pay off their medical school debts. Those aren't the type of people whom you want as family doctors.

 

I don't know what the solution to the family doctor shortage is, but it's definitely not that. Personally, although I know it is not a popular opinion on this site, I think we need to make better use of mid-levels for routine stuff. PAs work great in the Canadian Forces - they can handle all the basic stuff, but aren't afraid to send people to the doctor when they don't feel able to deal with something.

[NLengr]

I still think family practice teams, combined with better pay for family docs (to account for the fact they would deal with more complex patients) is the way to go.

[apache]

ask my iranian img room mate who consistently has top 5 percent board scores here and in the us, and has been trying to get a residency spots for 15 years about injustice when we sell a 1000 spots a year to saudi nationals, don't take the words injustice out of context and frame them at your whim.

 

i personally think it's a violation against the un standards of equality that img's aren't put on an even playing field with cmg's and have to pass more exams than cmg's (the EE (which is more difficult than mccqe1 and 2, and toefl)... now that's an injustice, maybe just an convenient one for you, so we'll just ignore it , i think if you really want to stand up for justice you should let img's have an even shot at your canadian residency positions since they're willing to work in canada and took more licensing exams than you, after all, they're just as qualified and most are landed immigrants or canadian citizens, many of them also have advanced degrees earned in north america in addition to their foreign mds.

 

i never mentioned injustice in the context of rape, murder, and free for all anarchism, so please don't take my words out of context, it makes you look bad, 25 years ago derm wasn't popular, now all those derms are making a million a year, things change and life isn't fair, deal with it, and please don't equate it with rape, it doesn't make you look very credible.

 

Once again, your post is unbelievable and disgusting. To believe that you are willing to perpetuate injustice because "injustice occurs everywhere" is bordering insanity....Is this how everything works for you? you know, murders and rapes "occur everywhere" so would you "be down for that"?? But it's okay because you'd tell them, "deal with it"...

 

someone please remove and block him from the forum

 

Edit: exchanged "blog" for 'forum'. excuse the word slip - - Thanks to aaronjw for noticing

[apache]

yeah, i'm just making a comment at how capricious life is sometimes, life isn't fair, i'm just lucky enough to want in demand and uncompetitive specialties, whereas other, harder working students who want competitive specialties may end up working much harder and not get what they want, this is definitely an injustice, but there's so much injustice that i find it useless to sit around and talk about it unless you're willing to take action to correct it, my mean family income when i was growing up was 25 k, that's an injustice, but if i sat around and complained about it all day i guess i'd probably be living in my parents basement. what i'm really getting at is once you've been through enough injustices in your life you have to acknowledge they're a fact of life and fight for your rights and for change, either that or give up your right to complain, it's unfortunate life doesn't flow but you have to deal with the cards your dealt, this certainly isn't an ideal philosophy, but at least it's pragmatic (coming from someone with a mentally ill parent and another parent who had a grade 6 education and lost their life savings at retirement due to fraud) as winston churchill said... if you do not acknowledge defeat, you can never beaten

 

Haha even though muse's comment was directed at me, I think it would be a loss if he was banned. However I still think that it'd be a huge injustice and it should never happen even though injustice occurs everywhere.

[MarathonRunner]

I still think family practice teams, combined with better pay for family docs (to account for the fact they would deal with more complex patients) is the way to go.

 

Agreed. That would be ideal. Unfortunately, I don't see it happening any time soon.

[leviathan]

i personally think it's a violation against the un standards of equality that img's aren't put on an even playing field with cmg's and have to pass more exams than cmg's (the EE (which is more difficult than mccqe1 and 2, and toefl)...

Hey muse,

 

I think they should be on a level playing field, but only once some international standards and international accreditation system is produced to ensure consistent quality of education. As it stands right now, there is some pretty wide variation in quality of training in different countries.

 

As for the EE, I heard it's ridiculously easy, but maybe that is not the case for people who don't speak English as a first language or who didn't train/practice medicine in the same environment as we do in the western world. Maybe that ties into my first point as well, that you can never really guarantee consistency of medical training worldwide, as schools in foreign regions may have an entirely different focus in education consistent with pathology prevalent in those regions. We would probably have just as much trouble practicing in their areas as they do in ours.

[Mashmetoo]

yeah, i'm just making a comment at how capricious life is sometimes, life isn't fair, i'm just lucky enough to want in demand and uncompetitive specialties, whereas other, harder working students who want competitive specialties may end up working much harder and not get what they want, this is definitely an injustice, but there's so much injustice that i find it useless to sit around and talk about it unless you're willing to take action to correct it, my mean family income when i was growing up was 25 k, that's an injustice, but if i sat around and complained about it all day i guess i'd probably be living in my parents basement. what i'm really getting at is once you've been through enough injustices in your life you have to acknowledge they're a fact of life and fight for your rights and for change, either that or give up your right to complain, it's unfortunate life doesn't flow but you have to deal with the cards your dealt, this certainly isn't an ideal philosophy, but at least it's pragmatic (coming from someone with a mentally ill parent and another parent who had a grade 6 education and lost their life savings at retirement due to fraud) as winston churchill said... if you do not acknowledge defeat, you can never beaten

 

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well said