Pharmacy as Pre-Med (People considering this route Please Read)

[MedPharm]

Pharmacy as Pre-Med

 

I just finished my pharmacy degree and got accepted to med off the wait-list. I know this is a road many other pre-meds take, though few may admit. I’m writing this on the forums because I think there’s a few things people should think through thoroughly before attempting the General Science → Pharmacy → Medicine route.

 

Pros

- Probably the best degree to complement a Medical Degree

- Exposure to the Health Care System

- Being able to see patients from a different perspective

- Making great friends in a close nit setting for 4 years

- Many health related volunteering activities to participate in

- Great back-up plan

 

Cons

- A major drop in GPA, which may prevent you from ever getting into medical school.

- Weekly exams in your 2nd and 3rd year. Literally either a MT or Final every week after the 3rd week of school.

- Pharmacy as stepping-stone is generally shunned upon.

- You are spending more years in University

 

I am going to elaborate a little more on the Cons because that’s probably what people are most curious about.

 

A GPA drop is guaranteed. Pharmacy is a competitive program; everyone got in with at least a 3.4 GPA, the average for my year was 3.7 GPA. Once you are in, you are placed on a curve. This means that a portion of these used-to-be-3.7-GPA people will have to get C’s and B’s. Do not think you are an exception because you are not! There are so many classes, and you are bound to let your guard down on a few exams a year. We are talking curves where 90% = A, 87% = A-, 85% = B+ etc. Which means a lot boils down to luck whether you guessed a few Multiple Choice questions right or wrong. Additionally, you are also graded on labs, which are very subjective since a large portion of marks is based on your communication skills.

 

Year 2 and 3 of the curriculum is very intensive. Weekly exams will wear you out after a few weeks, then you eventually feel “I don’t care anymore!!!” In fact the curriculum is so intense it’s hard to find time to do any extracurricular activities to boost your med resume. I learnt my lesson in Year 2 that when 3rd year came I quit everything and just focused on studying and working at a pharmacy 8-16 hours a week. Working at a pharmacy is clinical experience that will help you out a lot in pharmacy and is highly recommended. It’s also decent pay.

 

It’s a bit difficult to ask for reference letters for medicine. This is because pharmacy as pre-med is a bit shunned upon, as this point was specifically mention on my orientation day in pharmacy. The faculty stance is that you are taking someone else’s spot who actually wants to be a pharmacist and this is very true. Additionally, if you transfer out half way through the program, your faculty loses funding. So what I did was wait until I finish my degree before I applied. If you plan on applying to American Schools they often need 2-3 references from Profs who taught you in classes. So this may be exceedingly difficult to get. Sometimes American Schools may want 1 reference letter from a non-science prof, which is literally impossible for a pharmacy student to get. The last non-science course I’ve taken was English 5 years ago.

 

A pharmacy degree is 4 years + 1 year of general science. In order to get all your pre-reqs for Medicine you’ll have to do 2 years of general science. So it’s more of a 4 + 2 = 6 year degree. At 6 years most people have a Masters degree already (which some med schools may give you an extra point for and you’ll have research experience/publications to boost your EC).

 

I hope this post does not seem too negative. I wanted everyone who plans to go to do pharmacy as a pre-med to think it through thoroughly because it is a treacherous road. That being said I really enjoyed my 4 years in pharmacy. I made some of the best friends I’ve ever had. I’ve had opportunities to study abroad in Italy and Egypt. I do not feel doomed if I didn’t get into med. I feel I’m prepared for medicine with a nice background knowledge of all the pharmacological treatment options, side effects of drugs, and contraindications.

 

Bottom Line:

Pharmacy is one of the best Pre-med degrees… that is IF you can get into med after having your GPA drop like a bomb. Remember, GPA is the only thing that is set in stone and what most schools look at first! MCAT and EC can all be improved anytime during your life!

[LeX-]

While I appreciate your post, as a recent pharmacy 2011 grad at UBC and was accepted on the first day of Med admission invites from my first application, I disagree with most of your cons.

 

Cons

- A major drop in GPA, which may prevent you from ever getting into medical school.

 

This is not true. It could be argued that going through pharmacy is in fact easier than other degrees. There is a bunch of overlap throughout all of the courses (therapeutics, pharmacology etc). Throughout all of the years, my GPA was getting higher as the years went on.

 

- Weekly exams in your 2nd and 3rd year. Literally either a MT or Final every week after the 3rd week of school.

 

Varies by the school. Though I did have plenty of MTs, it was completely manageable as the material is sectioned off. Much easier to get high marks when you're only examined on small portions of the material.

 

- Pharmacy as stepping-stone is generally shunned upon.

 

Completely false. 2/3 references were Pharmacy based. My proffs all congratulated me and mentioned that a pharmacy grad has such an advantage as a medical student, and would likely make a better physician overall.

- You are spending more years in University

 

You can apply while in pharmacy and get out early. A bunch of students finished 2 years of pharmacy then entered medicine. It is not shunned upon at all.

 

It’s a bit difficult to ask for reference letters for medicine.

 

Not true at all. I made friends with my proffs. You know your proffs better in pharmacy. No one would disagree to write a reference letter. They are happy to see that pharmacy students are represented in medicine.

 

A pharmacy degree is 4 years + 1 year of general science. In order to get all your pre-reqs for Medicine you’ll have to do 2 years of general science.

 

2 years of general science? No. You can do you prereqs in pharmacy. You have summers and you have time in the week throughout the years. Some 1st year pharmacy courses are prereqs for med anyways. It's all about time management.

 

Sounds like we had a completely different experience in Pharmacy!

[Gemini]

Hi Everyone,

 

I just want to clear up a few things about the pharmacy to med route mentioned above.

 

A little bit of background on me: completed 1 year general science and then was accepted into pharmacy where I completed the first 2 years of the program. This cycle I was accepted into UBC Med VFMP as an IP applicant (on May 13th).

 

So I will address OP's points one by one:

 

1. GPA: I had a great GPA in this program. Higher than I could have achieved through General Sciences because there is SO MUCH OVERLAP in all of the pharmacy courses and the only thing that one needs to do is sit down and memorize all of the lectures. There is nothing that requires great conceptual thinking and the marking is not subjective as compared to Fine Arts courses. I have never experienced negative effects due to some sort of "curve", I got the mark that I deserved while still keeping up with all of my ECs (mostly concentrated in my 1st and 2nd years of pharmacy). All this while working a part time job and still attending all the social events in the Faculty and hanging out with my friends from time to time.

 

2. As long as you have other aspects in your life than pharmacy (a job, research and volunteering that isn't centered around pharmacy) reference letters will not be a problem. I did not have to ask for one from one of my faculty, so if one is uncomfortable with that, then they do not have to do it. I decided to do a directed studies outside of the faculty to receive my academic reference. However, I was not afraid of my decision to pursue medicine after pharmacy and the faculty did not look down on me. In fact at a recent social gathering I ran into my second year teachers and they were so happy for my acceptance. They knew about it before I even told them and they were congratulating me on my achievement. The staff and faculty of the pharmaceutical sciences at UBC is great and very close with the students.

 

3. You do not need to do 2 years of general science (or any other program) before you enter pharmacy. I only completed one and made sure to do all the prereqs in that year. Sure, you may have to take 4-5 courses per semester; however, they are all relevant and prove that you can do a high work load which will make you a great candidate for medicine.

 

Hopefully this will add some perspective to the conversation and provide another view point on why pharmacy is a great program and a wonderful addition to a physician's knowledge base.

[RedOne]

It depends which pharm school you are talking about. Alot of schools are changing their program so that it is a pharmD. As a result the pre reqs have increased and include alot of chem that pre med may not want to do or go out of their way. Ie phys chem. Also materiAls may be conceptually easier but you will be taking much more than 5 classes a semester

[MedPharm]

ahhh i typed something up long but when I click submit I somehow logged out and lost it so I'll make a short version.

 

I agree with the previous two posters regarding references. In fact most my reference/contacts were pharmacy classmates/managers/professors. I had my profs and pharmacy manager write my references as well. I do admit, I do not think I was comfortable asking them in my 1st and 2 year. To clarify things a bit, i feel that pharmacy as premed is shunned upon if you leave the program half way through without completely finishing it. This is for a few reasons: you took someone else's spot who wants to be a pharmacist, you left something unfinished, and you cost the faculty in losing funding. I guess that same can be said for someone who is doing there Masters/PhD and decides to jump boat to Medicine before completing it.

 

The GPA drop may be school specific, but it was definitely felt widely through my entire class (except for a few individuals who are truly geniuses with photographic-like memory). With all the points I mention I think there is only 1 point I truly felt negative about, and that is a GPA drop. Is UBC on a curve?Because when you are curving a bunch of 3.7 GPA pre-pharm students on a curve where the class average is 3.0-3.1 there is bound to be a drop in GPA. The very very top students may be able to escape it. I also heard there is a school in Canada that is pass/fail?

 

There is one Pro I did forget to mention. Pharmacy OSCEs prepare you for your MMI to a certain extent. I dont feel that any other science degree would have prepared a candidate for such.

[MedPharm]

I forgot to address the 4 + 2 year = 6 year pharmacy issue.

 

It is very true that you can do 4 + 1 year but it is a difficult road. If you spend 2 years in general science you can transfer a lot of your courses to your pharmacy degree, which would make your life MUCH easier. On average I would say you take 1 less course every year during your 4 years of pharmacy. Also, if you never taken courses like physiology and anatomy in your 2nd year of general science things are a little more difficult for you in your 1st year of pharmacy. It is also really difficult to fit a course like Physics into your pharmacy schedule because that course has a Lab component. The only real way of doing it is doing it during the summer. And we all love physics right? haha

 

And yes there's the PharmD thing too... but I'm not too sure how that comes into play yet since I never really looked into it.

[LeX-]

The GPA drop may be school specific, but it was definitely felt widely through my entire class (except for a few individuals who are truly geniuses with photographic-like memory).

 

Students in pharmacy consider pharmacy as their final career. They tend to worry about their grades less as employers don't care about your grades. They are not fighting to enter medicine.

It is very true that you can do 4 + 1 year but it is a difficult road. If you spend 2 years in general science you can transfer a lot of your courses to your pharmacy degree, which would make your life MUCH easier.

 

It's not easy. However it is doable. Look at Gemini, this person entered as a 3 year applicant. It's possible, one just has to be on the ball.

[MedPharm]

"Students in pharmacy consider pharmacy as their final career. They tend to worry about their grades less as employers don't care about your grades. They are not fighting to enter medicine."

 

Not when getting into PharmD is dependent on your grades. I heard residency also looks at your grades, and they specifically question you on classes you got low scores on (or so I heard).

[Gemini]

It depends which pharm school you are talking about. Alot of schools are changing their program so that it is a pharmD. As a result the pre reqs have increased and include alot of chem that pre med may not want to do or go out of their way. Ie phys chem. Also materiAls may be conceptually easier but you will be taking much more than 5 classes a semester

 

Sure you're taking more classes, but what people don't realize are that a lot of them are 2 credit or 1 credit courses. The work load is equivalent to 5-6 3 credit courses per semester (if you choose to not take any courses in the summer).

[LeX-]

"Students in pharmacy consider pharmacy as their final career. They tend to worry about their grades less as employers don't care about your grades. They are not fighting to enter medicine."

 

Not when getting into PharmD is dependent on your grades. I heard residency also looks at your grades, and they specifically question you on classes you got low scores on (or so I heard).

 

How many students are considering Pharm D or residency? Maximum 20%? Most individuals enter community pharmacy. This brings the averages down. Even then the averages for residency aren't hard to achieve.

[MedPharm]

If you add the PharmDs, Residency, Pre-meds, the ones thinking about MBA, and people who like to know everything so that they can be a good pharmacist. The numbers add up. Medicine is filled with A-type personality people. So is Pharmacy. I was taught a pharmacist stands on equal ground with a physician, and thus the education as a pharmacist is just as hard. (though debatable, since I have not been through med school yet).

[LeX-]

If you add the PharmDs, Residency, Pre-meds, the ones thinking about MBA, and people who like to know everything so that they can be a good pharmacist. The numbers add up. Medicine is filled with A-type personality people. So is Pharmacy. I was taught a pharmacist stands on equal ground with a physician, and thus the education as a pharmacist is just as hard. (though debatable, since I have not been through med school yet).

 

Getting good grades in your classes does not equal a good pharmacist. It's the work experience. Many pharmacy courses are not applicable to actual practice. The most important aspects are your work experience, rotations and the mentorship from preceptors.

 

Getting into residency, pharmD etc is mainly through work connections and is less dependent on your grades, as memorizing biochemistry for a high grade is not necessary for residency.

[MedPharm]

I do concur that many courses are not applicable to practice (espeically med chem). Bottom line though is everyone still wants good grades. It's a good competitive environment in that everyone still helps everyone out. But GPA wise most people will have to suffer. Perhaps our two schools are too different and we are not comparing apples to apples but apples to oranges.

[calijello]

Wow, I didn't know pharamcy as pre-med would work out so well for some people. (And for UBC students too! )

 

I'm currently in General Sciences at UBC (2nd yr) and considering applying to pharmacy this year. Then slowly work towards getting into med school...

 

But what would I answer to the question "why did you choose pharmacy instead of med school" in the interview (if the question is asked)?

 

Also, is it really impossible to get into med if I have a low gpa for pre-req's?

[ThomasRolland]

But what would I answer to the question "why did you choose pharmacy instead of med school" in the interview (if the question is asked)?

 

Tell them the truth. You wanted a career that's meaningful for you... There's no need to feel guilty, pharmacists would jump at the chance of becoming doctors.

[Mithril]

Tell them the truth. You wanted a career that's meaningful for you... There's no need to feel guilty, pharmacists would jump at the chance of becoming doctors.

Uh, not everyone in a health profession wants to be a doctor. Your comment's pretty disrespectful.

 

In any case, I don't think one should go into a professional program, like pharmacy, as a stepping stone to med school.

[UBCStudent128]

While I appreciate your post, as a recent pharmacy 2011 grad at UBC and was accepted on the first day of Med admission invites from my first application, I disagree with most of your cons.

 

Cons

- A major drop in GPA, which may prevent you from ever getting into medical school.

 

This is not true. It could be argued that going through pharmacy is in fact easier than other degrees. There is a bunch of overlap throughout all of the courses (therapeutics, pharmacology etc). Throughout all of the years, my GPA was getting higher as the years went on.

 

- Weekly exams in your 2nd and 3rd year. Literally either a MT or Final every week after the 3rd week of school.

 

Varies by the school. Though I did have plenty of MTs, it was completely manageable as the material is sectioned off. Much easier to get high marks when you're only examined on small portions of the material.

 

- Pharmacy as stepping-stone is generally shunned upon.

 

Completely false. 2/3 references were Pharmacy based. My proffs all congratulated me and mentioned that a pharmacy grad has such an advantage as a medical student, and would likely make a better physician overall.

- You are spending more years in University

 

You can apply while in pharmacy and get out early. A bunch of students finished 2 years of pharmacy then entered medicine. It is not shunned upon at all.

 

It’s a bit difficult to ask for reference letters for medicine.

 

Not true at all. I made friends with my proffs. You know your proffs better in pharmacy. No one would disagree to write a reference letter. They are happy to see that pharmacy students are represented in medicine.

 

A pharmacy degree is 4 years + 1 year of general science. In order to get all your pre-reqs for Medicine you’ll have to do 2 years of general science.

 

2 years of general science? No. You can do you prereqs in pharmacy. You have summers and you have time in the week throughout the years. Some 1st year pharmacy courses are prereqs for med anyways. It's all about time management.

 

Sounds like we had a completely different experience in Pharmacy!

 

People generally do better as years go on as you are used to university studying, and have developed few useful strategies to study better. However, I highly doubt that most people in pharmacy would've had the same upward trend as they would've in general science taking bunch of electives. (Imagine taking 3~5 courses like FNH200 a year instead of Pharmacy courses..)

Maybe your GPA will not drop, but for MOST people it wouldn't be as high as it would with other easier degrees.

 

And you can do the pre-reqs during summer/.fit it into your 40 credit years but that is surely a huge CON. To manage all that + EC's , it is definitely a con, since you would have an easier time managing with other degree, thus having more time to do extra EC's or extra studying.

[calijello]

Tell them the truth. You wanted a career that's meaningful for you... There's no need to feel guilty, pharmacists would jump at the chance of becoming doctors.

 

 

Yeah I want to, but as you can see some like Mithril doesn't find going in to pharmacy and then moving on to med "right".

 

It seems that there is a pool of very mixed opinions here :S

[skymall88]

Yeah I want to, but as you can see some like Mithril doesn't find going in to pharmacy and then moving on to med "right".

 

It seems that there is a pool of very mixed opinions here :S

 

who cares what others say....make your own decision and don't let others deter you from what you think is best for you....jeez