does it even matter which Medical School?

[lala.lahori]

I just finished my undergrad and most of my friends are opting to go to the Caribbean the top 4 (most of them to st. george) instead of waiting a year or doing masters. Is it even worth the wait. I looked up their residency placements and they have good matches...in surgery as well. You have to compete in medical school there but still the competition is far less as people with less than 3.0s are getting into those schools.

Further I just looked into the resident profiles of neurosurgery at UofT and each year one person from Caribbean is chosen, and those aren't even from the top 4 Caribbean schools, one resident from Medical university of America (thats the first time I even heard of it) and one from University of West Indies.

So why are carribean school looked down upon. I know most of the class have a GPA below those in US and canada but there are some people who are smart and not get in here. If they work hard they can easily get a placement on their marks.

What do you guys think?

[Mourning Cloak]

So why are carribean school looked down upon. I know most of the class have a GPA below those in US and canada but there are some people who are smart and not get in here. If they work hard they can easily get a placement on their marks.

What do you guys think?

 

http://carms.ca/pdfs/2011R1_MatchResults/1_Summary%20of%20Match%20Results%20R1%201st_2nd%20Combined_en.pdf

 

In 2011:

 

- there were 2576 CMG applicants to CaRMS; 2507 matched (97.3%)

- there were 1920 IMG applicants to CaRMS; 380 matched (19.8%)

 

It's a question of paying now or paying later. If you tough it out and do what you have to do, and get into a Canadian medical school, you're basically set. You will VERY probably not fail out, and VERY probably match to a residency position. If you take a short-cut through the Caribbean, it's a lot easier to get in, but you may fail out (flaming out is far more common in Caribbean schools than in Canadian schools) and your odds of getting a residency position in Canada are much, much lower.

 

To use SGU as an example, at present there are 36 residents at all levels (PGY 1-5) in Canadian residency programs who got their MDs in Grenada (presumably from SGU unless there are other medical schools in the country); by comparison, there are currently an estimated 660 Canadians studying at SGU.

 

Cost is also a major consideration; since you will need co-signers for your $200K loan to study abroad, if you do flame out your co-signer (likely parents) will be on the hook for all that money. That's enough to bankrupt any family.

 

The Caribbean route works for some people - the very smartest people, usually. But be very sure of your scholastic competence - if you don't get a residency position somewhere (either the US or Canada) you will be essentially saddled with a six figure debt and nothing to show for it.

 

This is a typical story of someone who leaped/leapt without looking:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/citizenbytes/2009/12/doctor_shortage_a_medical_stud.html

Since the above was written, the number of Canadians studying abroad as doubled:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/health/story/2011/02/22/canadian-students-medicine-overseas.html

[Mithril]

From people whom I've talked to, once you're in a Canadian school, it's pretty smooth sailing in the sense that there's a very low attrition rate for Canadian schools and there are lots of resources for struggling students. Admission is the most difficult thing in Canada.

 

However, admission is very easy for Caribbean schools and you're pretty much on your own once you get in. There are decent schools in the Caribbean, like Ross, SGU, and Saba, but your work ethic determines whether you're successful in a Caribbean med school and your possible subsequent residency placement in the States or Canada. Plus, if you're a non-US citizen you have to apply for a J-1 or H-1B work visa for clinical rotations in your later years of med school.

 

In the end, success in a Caribbean med school is up to the individual. In Canada, pretty much everyone who matriculates is academically strong. This isn't the case for people who are accepted into Caribbean schools.

[donnadee]

http://carms.ca/pdfs/2011R1_MatchResults/1_Summary%20of%20Match%20Results%20R1%201st_2nd%20Combined_en.pdf

 

In 2011:

 

- there were 2576 CMG applicants to CaRMS; 2507 matched (97.3%)

- there were 1920 IMG applicants to CaRMS; 380 matched (19.8%)

 

It's a question of paying now or paying later. If you tough it out and do what you have to do, and get into a Canadian medical school, you're basically set. You will VERY probably not fail out, and VERY probably match to a residency position. If you take a short-cut through the Caribbean, it's a lot easier to get in, but you may fail out (flaming out is far more common in Caribbean schools than in Canadian schools) and your odds of getting a residency position in Canada are much, much lower.

 

To use SGU as an example, at present there are 36 residents at all levels (PGY 1-5) in Canadian residency programs who got their MDs in Grenada (presumably from SGU unless there are other medical schools in the country); by comparison, there are currently an estimated 660 Canadians studying at SGU.

 

Cost is also a major consideration; since you will need co-signers for your $200K loan to study abroad, if you do flame out your co-signer (likely parents) will be on the hook for all that money. That's enough to bankrupt any family.

 

The Caribbean route works for some people - the very smartest people, usually. But be very sure of your scholastic competence - if you don't get a residency position somewhere (either the US or Canada) you will be essentially saddled with a six figure debt and nothing to show for it.

 

This is a typical story of someone who leaped/leapt without looking:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/citizenbytes/2009/12/doctor_shortage_a_medical_stud.html

Since the above was written, the number of Canadians studying abroad as doubled:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/health/story/2011/02/22/canadian-students-medicine-overseas.html

 

on the bright side though, arent those chances better than getting into a Canadian medical school....and for those who know they wont be able to get into a Canadian school anyway (for e.g. due to low gpa) and are intent on pursuing medicine...they must have little to lose from choosing to go to Carib..wont they?

[NikiFM]

I think an important part in this decision is after a Master's degree will you be competitive? If you have a 3.8+ GPA and a decent MCAT and have gotten interviews its probably better to give it another go. But if you are not very competitive at Canadian schools because your undergrad GPA and MCAT then you may want to consider going abroad. Publications, awards and ECs are an important part of the process but really if you have a 3.3 and even after a few attempts at the MCAT can't get a competitive score it might just be better to go international if you can financially manage it. Not that you can't ever get in but it may likely take a few years and it is an uphill battle. Just my thoughts on it.

[tothestars]

In terms of getting a residency position in Canada - do you have a better chance coming from a Caribbean school or an European school (such as the bridging program in Ireland)? Also if you do get your MD through the bridging program, will you be able to practice in Europe?

 

Sorry if the I sound ignorant. I am very unaware of the process of applying to international schools.

[Mithril]

on the bright side though, arent those chances better than getting into a Canadian medical school....and for those who know they wont be able to get into a Canadian school anyway (for e.g. due to low gpa) and are intent on pursuing medicine...they must have little to lose from choosing to go to Carib..wont they?

It might be better, but you need to take into account the amount of debt you will be in from pursuing an education in the Carribean, the quality of education, the lifestyle, the unfamiliar surroundings, etc.

[LostLamb]

I think an important part in this decision is after a Master's degree will you be competitive? If you have a 3.8+ GPA and a decent MCAT and have gotten interviews its probably better to give it another go. But if you are not very competitive at Canadian schools because your undergrad GPA and MCAT then you may want to consider going abroad. Publications, awards and ECs are an important part of the process but really if you have a 3.3 and even after a few attempts at the MCAT can't get a competitive score it might just be better to go international if you can financially manage it. Not that you can't ever get in but it may likely take a few years and it is an uphill battle. Just my thoughts on it.

 

Consider if you want to add the time 'trying to get into the profession' now or later. I chose to reapply in Canada because of the certainty of the outcome--I know I will match in something, somewhere. I was not prepared to put up the money and take a chance and see if the CaRMS match was friendly to me or not after training in the Caribbean or elsewhere outside of Canada.

 

BTW, it is NOT impossible to get into a Canadian medical school with lower grades and MCAT. You just need to tailor your application appropriately to accommodate this (ECs, LOR, publications, etc).

 

Good luck!

[donnadee]

i think though, that beyond a certain point, one should really rethink their decision about continuously reapplying year after year and not getting in...i personally know of someone who along their path to pursuing medical school in Canada has raked up 2 or 3 masters degrees and continues to participate in various extracurriculars but has still not been able to get an interview...if i was the person, i would altogether reconsider my decision to pursue medicine/or try for a medical school outside Canada...

 

im not trying to be discouraging...i just think that an important element that pre-meds need to consider is to understand where and how improvements can be made to the application...blindly pursuing a masters/PhD without understanding the medical school application process will lead to a waste of time, especially if one is on border line GPA...

[LostLamb]

im not trying to be discouraging...i just think that an important element that pre-meds need to consider is to understand where and how improvements can be made to the application...blindly pursuing a masters/PhD without understanding the medical school application process will lead to a waste of time, especially if one is on border line GPA...

 

Blind pursuits are not good in any situation. I believe that the OP needs to look at all options but needs to keep their eyes open to the realities behind each one. Posting here and reading up on all the old posts is a great start.

[EoE]

http://carms.ca/pdfs/2011R1_MatchResults/1_Summary%20of%20Match%20Results%20R1%201st_2nd%20Combined_en.pdf

 

In 2011:

 

- there were 2576 CMG applicants to CaRMS; 2507 matched (97.3%)

- there were 1920 IMG applicants to CaRMS; 380 matched (19.8%)

 

Thanks for providing these stats Mourning Cloak! Very interesting pdf. People considering going abroad for meds - careful when interpreting these stats. Those 380 IMGs are not all Canadians fresh out of a Caribbean med schools. From what I understand, that 380 includes Australian MDs and international docs who may have practiced abroad, some for many years. I have heard some of these Caribbean schools use the match rates for IMGs in Canada and made them sound like that was the match rate for their school. The competition coming back as an IMG is quite high. Also, remember you will be going away for a few years and the rules may change by the time you apply to CaRMS. The rules may change for the better, but they may not.

[rmorelan]

i think though, that beyond a certain point, one should really rethink their decision about continuously reapplying year after year and not getting in...i personally know of someone who along their path to pursuing medical school in Canada has raked up 2 or 3 masters degrees and continues to participate in various extracurriculars but has still not been able to get an interview...if i was the person, i would altogether reconsider my decision to pursue medicine/or try for a medical school outside Canada...

 

im not trying to be discouraging...i just think that an important element that pre-meds need to consider is to understand where and how improvements can be made to the application...blindly pursuing a masters/PhD without understanding the medical school application process will lead to a waste of time, especially if one is on border line GPA...

 

yeah that is unfortunately! I love the dedication but you need to have a direction to your efforts or you are far less likely to succeed!

 

A simple 2nd UG in that case probably would have solve the problem with far less time being involved.

[Applemanv3]

yeah that is unfortunately! I love the dedication but you need to have a direction to your efforts or you are far less likely to succeed!

 

A simple 2nd UG in that case probably would have solve the problem with far less time being involved.

Ditto rmorelan.

 

This is the exact reason for me pursuing MRS. Now I've got a career which I like from where I can continue to try for med. Hopefully 2011-2012 pays off!!!

 

Good luck!

[thegame11]

If you are OK with doing primary care, look into US DO/osteopathic schools. It's a safer pathway than Caribbean schools, and almost no risk of not getting a residency after you complete your medical degree. It's easier to get into DO schools than MD schools (average MCAT acceptance score of US MD schools ~30 vs. DO schools ~28).

 

 

http://osteopathic.ca/faq.htm

[ArchEnemy]

Yes, ONE student from the Carribean...out of like a thousand or more. There are only so many residency spots, and obviously Canadian med grads get priority. Caribbean is risky and could bite you in the as$. My feeling is that if you can't get into a school in Canada or the States, you should seriously consider alternate career choices.

 

I think I would go as far as to say, if you can't gain an admission in Canada and have to go to a Med School US, it may be best to reconsider your alternatives (unless you have really good connections in the medical field).

[firesinx]

The people who go to the Caribeans are the ones who take the easy road, I know a girl who went from High school to a caribean medical school...wtf?

 

But anyways, caribeans medical schools might take you less time but most people who go there are unconfident to do undergrad in canada or couldn't get a decent GPA in undergrad in canada. Afterall medicine is about patience, no premed student has an excuse to say they want to fast pace and finish their medical degree fast, afterall it's about saving someone's life.

[tothestars]

I know Canadian students who got their MD in the states, and is now practicing there. Not everybody who studies in international schools necessarily want to come back to Canada. I guess it also depends on how strongly you feel that you want to live the rest of your life here vs how passionate you are about becoming a doctor.

 

 

Passion has no boundaries

[xkittens]

I just finished my undergrad and most of my friends are opting to go to the Caribbean the top 4 (most of them to st. george) instead of waiting a year or doing masters. Is it even worth the wait. I looked up their residency placements and they have good matches...in surgery as well. You have to compete in medical school there but still the competition is far less as people with less than 3.0s are getting into those schools.

Further I just looked into the resident profiles of neurosurgery at UofT and each year one person from Caribbean is chosen, and those aren't even from the top 4 Caribbean schools, one resident from Medical university of America (thats the first time I even heard of it) and one from University of West Indies.

So why are carribean school looked down upon. I know most of the class have a GPA below those in US and canada but there are some people who are smart and not get in here. If they work hard they can easily get a placement on their marks.

What do you guys think?

 

You're talking as if everyone's entitled to becoming a doctor. Being a doctor is a privilege; there's a reason why getting into medical school is so difficult in Canada.

If someone was unable to get good enough marks to get into medical school, then they shouldn't be in medical school (specially the abysmal GPAs that get accepted to caribbean schools).

One thing that I find hilarious is that one of the caribbean schools actually admits to being a for-profit university. I forgot which one though.

[Mithril]

I think I would go as far as to say, if you can't gain an admission in Canada and have to go to a Med School US, it may be best to reconsider your alternatives (unless you have really good connections in the medical field).

The people who go to the Caribeans are the ones who take the easy road, I know a girl who went from High school to a caribean medical school...wtf?

 

But anyways, caribeans medical schools might take you less time but most people who go there are unconfident to do undergrad in canada or couldn't get a decent GPA in undergrad in canada. Afterall medicine is about patience, no premed student has an excuse to say they want to fast pace and finish their medical degree fast, afterall it's about saving someone's life.

 

First of all, there is absolutely nothing wrong about having to go to the States for medicine. In fact, some people choose to only apply in the States rather than in Canada because they may be able to get more research opportunities, higher salary, etc. Whatever their motive is for choosing the States, I don't think anyone has the right to stigmatize that.

 

Secondly, it's sort of a stretch to say that most people who go to the Caribbean are lacking confidence and the like. You damn right people want to be certain of their future instead of waiting for the crapshoot that is Canadian medical admission. Nobody wants to waste two or three years worth of application cycles to get into a Canadian school. Some people get lucky and some don't.

 

Both of you need to remember that the number of qualified applicants grossly outnumbers the number of spots available in Canada.

[lala.lahori]

Thanks for the reply guys. I am considering all my options. I have a cgpa of 3.7 and will be writing my mcat this summer to apply for next cycle. I need to get a pretty good mcat score to help me get in (Queens western and mac). I have been doing research throughout my undergrad so finding a masters position wouldnt be that hard (i hope so).

 

the stats do tell you about the low rate of IMGs coming into canada but as mentioned earlier they do not distinguish between doctors from australia/caribbean/south asia so you never know how the match favours the respective regions. I looked at the residency placement reports for the top 4 caribbean schools and they had very low canadian matches in comparison to US but my guess is with the huge loan many people decide to move to US (i know a couple of people who are) plus the percentage of canadians at these schools isn't that high anyways, so that might be another reason.

 

I am leaning towards a masters degree but was curious to know the views of other people as so many of the people from my class are heading to saba and SGU.

[LostLamb]

i think if you do a google search you will come upon a forum called 'valuemd' that might have more info on all the Caribbean and international schools. Not sure if I am allowed to post links here, but you will probably find a wealth of info and with more traffic there it'll likely yield better answers to your questions.

[Mourning Cloak]

the stats do tell you about the low rate of IMGs coming into canada but as mentioned earlier they do not distinguish between doctors from australia/caribbean/south asia so you never know how the match favours the respective regions.

 

You can work it out.

 

This link shows how many students who graduated from school X are in residency in Canada.

This link shows how many students are at that school in total.

 

For example, the second link shows that there are an estimated 650 Canadian IMGs studying in Ireland. The first link shows that in 2010-2011, there were 143 residents in Canadian residency programs who got their MDs in Ireland. Compare that with SGU, where there are a similar number of students there (660) but only 36 residents.

[ArchEnemy]

I think going to the US is acceptable, you aren't considered an IMG and you can always do your residency there. On top of that, there's lots of people who choose an American school over a Canadian one...I know of someone who is headed to a top US school despite getting in at most of the Canadian ones, simply because of the research opportunities..

 

Yeah you're right about the IMG part. But that case you mentioned is a really rare one. Most of the time, Canadians who study medicine US school are the more financially privileged ones (not necessarily better grades), otherwise they would have gone to Carribean schools instead..

[MarathonRunner]

Yeah you're right about the IMG part. But that case you mentioned is a really rare one. Most of the time, Canadians who study medicine US school are the more financially privileged ones (not necessarily better grades), otherwise they would have gone to Carribean schools instead..

 

Not really. Generally, those who go to the U.S. have higher GPAs than those who choose to go overseas. After all, Canadians who attend medical school in the U.S. are considered as CMGs for CaRMS purposes, so they have a much better chance of matching in Canada. Typically, it seems that it is only those who can't gain acceptance at a Canadian or U.S. medical school who choose to go overseas (ie. Caribbean, Ireland or Australia).

[6730b]

Let's say you have a father or uncle that is a family doctor or surgeon, is it possible to have them accept you for your residency in Canada. I know it's a blind match but if you rank each other high? Am I way off base?