Lageishon Mohanadas Posted July 12, 2011 Report Share Posted July 12, 2011 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullying_of_medical_students#Bullying_of_medical_students Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithril Posted July 12, 2011 Report Share Posted July 12, 2011 Not surprised to be honest. I first heard of med students being bullied by their seniors in the book Doing Right. Although I'm not sure what we're supposed to discuss in a thread with a link and nothing else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clever Posted July 12, 2011 Report Share Posted July 12, 2011 I've never really had a problem with bullying.. I heard while a senior can make your life hell, you can do the same to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostintime Posted July 12, 2011 Report Share Posted July 12, 2011 I've never really had a problem with bullying.. I heard while a senior can make your life hell, you can do the same to them. I think they can make your life hell much more than the other way around. Like what can you really do to them? Do a ****ty consult? I doubt there is much and you have way more at stake than them in terms of the power differential. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firesinx Posted July 12, 2011 Report Share Posted July 12, 2011 "-been victimised for not having come from a 'medical family' " This happened to me, 2 of the biggest dumbazes in my gr 12 class were laughing at me and my friend because we didn't have medical parents and they did. But funny thing is we have better GPAs and grades than them atm, these kids were 60's students and their parents were doctors (hard to believe)... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmorelan Posted July 12, 2011 Report Share Posted July 12, 2011 "-been victimised for not having come from a 'medical family' " This happened to me, 2 of the biggest dumbazes in my gr 12 class were laughing at me and my friend because we didn't have medical parents and they did. But funny thing is we have better GPAs and grades than them atm, these kids were 60's students and their parents were doctors (hard to believe)... ahh the old entitlement factor Used to tutor people like that in High School for relatively good money - there are a lot of people like that. They could have turned themselves around in university but if not then medical school in Canada at least would be kind of hard to reach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithril Posted July 12, 2011 Report Share Posted July 12, 2011 Did you know that a higher proportion of kids who have doctor parents and want to go to med school go to the Caribbean instead? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notjk Posted July 12, 2011 Report Share Posted July 12, 2011 Did you know that a higher proportion of kids who have doctor parents and want to go to med school go to the Caribbean instead? maybe its because they can afford it and have good connections? I know people from high school can go to Windsor School of Medicine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clever Posted July 12, 2011 Report Share Posted July 12, 2011 I think they can make your life hell much more than the other way around. Like what can you really do to them? Do a ****ty consult? I doubt there is much and you have way more at stake than them in terms of the power differential. There was a thread about this a while ago and someone explained that med students can screw over the seniors. I can't remember any detail; feel free to dig for the thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firesinx Posted July 12, 2011 Report Share Posted July 12, 2011 maybe its because they can afford it and have good connections? I know people from high school can go to Windsor School of Medicine. Actually it's because most of the kids who have doctor parents have parents who have done medicine in foreign countries. However, they fail to realize things have changed in the last 20+ years, it's much harder to get entry here now due to the high competition. Regardless, getting into Caribbean medical school has nothing about connections, and it's quite low unless it's your last attempt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thehockeykid Posted July 12, 2011 Report Share Posted July 12, 2011 Discusting, I would be so pissed off if there was some kind of bullying to me or my peers in school. There is a thing called respect which I try and give everyone a fair chance regardless of what I hear, cause I believe in some kind of ethical human code. In sports teams the whole labeling as a "newbie" really upset me when I joined a new team. They gave me that label to try and characterizing me into some socially constructed concept where I have to jump through hoops cause I was new. So many human beings disgust me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firesinx Posted July 12, 2011 Report Share Posted July 12, 2011 Discusting, I would be so pissed off if there was some kind of bullying to me or my peers in school. There is a thing called respect which I try and give everyone a fair chance regardless of what I hear, cause I believe in some kind of ethical human code. In sports teams the whole labeling as a "newbie" really upset me when I joined a new team. They gave me that label to try and characterizing me into some socially constructed concept where I have to jump through hoops cause I was new. So many human beings disgust me I strongly agree with your last statement. 90%+ of the premeds I've encountered are in it for the money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nyxia Posted July 12, 2011 Report Share Posted July 12, 2011 I strongly agree with your last statement. 90%+ of the premeds I've encountered are in it for the money. The best way to solve this problem is to cap doctor's earnings at 60-100k. Instantly, 3/4 of the applicant pool will run away and only those who genuinely want to become a doctor will be left. I know I would still want to become a doctor if I only made 60k. As for med school debt, my parents are paying for all education costs. However, I think the solution would be to make med school free. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Hood Posted July 12, 2011 Report Share Posted July 12, 2011 The best way to solve this problem is to cap doctor's earnings at 60-100k. Instantly, 3/4 of the applicant pool will run away and only those who genuinely want to become a doctor will be left. I know I would still want to become a doctor if I only made 60k. As for med school debt, my parents are paying for all education costs. However, I think the solution would be to make med school free. I agree wages should be decreased, but would you sacrifice 10 years of your life to make 60k, it's too low. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustMe Posted July 12, 2011 Report Share Posted July 12, 2011 The best way to solve this problem is to cap doctor's earnings at 60-100k. Instantly, 3/4 of the applicant pool will run away and only those who genuinely want to become a doctor will be left. I know I would still want to become a doctor if I only made 60k. As for med school debt, my parents are paying for all education costs. However, I think the solution would be to make med school free. Nyxia, You're living in a dream world. While I agree that doctors don't need to be raking in high six figures, limiting earnings to 60-100k is completely unrealistic and, quite frankly, insulting to the amount of hard work and debt it takes to become a doctor. Very few medical students have parents who can/will pay all education costs, which are about $150,000 over 4 years with tuition and living expenses. You could barely cover the interest on that amount of debt on the income you're suggesting. When you're no longer 20 and decide to become a grown-up, you may also want to do grown-up things like buy and house and have kids. Rugrats are expensive! After living in the real world for a few years, you'll quickly realize that 60k isn't very much money at all! Who's gonna pay for med school if it's free? Like I said, you're living in a dream world honey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apache Posted July 12, 2011 Report Share Posted July 12, 2011 I'm switching to meds to dent and applying for jobs that pay 42-65k for my year off for 35-40 hr a job weeks... and the level of responsibility and stress is nowhere near a what a doctor a goes through... I'm just saying... if I would initially have taken the entry level jobs offered to me with the government 2.5 years ago at 50 k I would be earning 70 k with no debt right now... at 23. ****, I could make tons more going back to my essay/cv writing job if they'll take me back, and I have no ones lives to worry about. Or look at something like pharmacy, go to community college a couple years, get a 3.8, 4 years of pharmacy and you have a 100 g for a relatively easy job. As much as this fantasy world works for people who've never desired a comfortable living in their life it doesn't crack it in the real world (and I'd be happy working for 150 as a gp (I don't need to be filthy rich), but 60 is a pittance and an insult to my training within the context of comparable jobs in north american society, debt or not. On an aside, has no one ever looked into how much librarians make, 55-100 k, tenure track for a MLS (Library Studies), which needs like a 3.0 to get in, dental hygiene also pays 40-50 an hour with like a 3.2 to get in. It's easy to deny from the ivory tower, but greed, to some extent, promotes hard work. The best way to solve this problem is to cap doctor's earnings at 60-100k. Instantly, 3/4 of the applicant pool will run away and only those who genuinely want to become a doctor will be left. I know I would still want to become a doctor if I only made 60k. As for med school debt, my parents are paying for all education costs. However, I think the solution would be to make med school free. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EBDOC15 Posted July 12, 2011 Report Share Posted July 12, 2011 The best way to solve this problem is to cap doctor's earnings at 60-100k. Instantly, 3/4 of the applicant pool will run away and only those who genuinely want to become a doctor will be left. I know I would still want to become a doctor if I only made 60k. As for med school debt, my parents are paying for all education costs. However, I think the solution would be to make med school free. Capping like that would also drive a lot of people who genuinely want to be doctors away from the profession. You can't deny that pursuing medicine is a huge commitment that puts strain on individuals and families alike. I guess someone who's young and doesn't have to bear any of the debt isn't in a very good position to understand this. While I would have agreed a few years ago, I now believe such a thought process is self serving and the question of medical reimbursement is very complex and not easily addressed. capping may be a good idea as long as the problems of no benefits and educational costs are addressed. Even today, for most hard working, dedicated physicians, medicine is not as lucrative as other carriers they could have pursued. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astrogirl Posted July 12, 2011 Report Share Posted July 12, 2011 Very few medical students have parents who can/will pay all education costs, which are about $150,000 over 4 years with tuition and living expenses. You could barely cover the interest on that amount of debt on the income you're suggesting. ... Who's gonna pay for med school if it's free? In addition to these issues, there is still quite a bit of bullying that goes on in professions where people make much less than 60K, so lowering doctors' income probably wouldn't solve the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apache Posted July 12, 2011 Report Share Posted July 12, 2011 You'll encounter bullying in medical training without a doubt, the hierarchical narcissistic interaction styles of some doctors are some of the things that turn me off of medicine, don't dare pimp me, or I'll pimp you on psychology, the history of medicine, the origins of lending and it's ties to religion, the hard and soft problems of consciousness, psychopharmacology, the progression of self throughout time or all sorts of other random encyclopedia of topics I have in my brain. I find treating others with dignity, respect and building rapport makes for such a better learning environment. I'm not saying this is all docs, but it's def a considerable bunch, but they're personality characteristics are selected by the admissions process implicitly and then honed by years of stressful practice. On the other hand, inter-classmate bullying is almost non-existant, most med students are really nice, and even if they're not, they're superficially nice, which is good enough for me. Pre-clinical educators are the tops, couldn't ask for a better group of compassionate individuals, minus endo . Discusting, I would be so pissed off if there was some kind of bullying to me or my peers in school. There is a thing called respect which I try and give everyone a fair chance regardless of what I hear, cause I believe in some kind of ethical human code. In sports teams the whole labeling as a "newbie" really upset me when I joined a new team. They gave me that label to try and characterizing me into some socially constructed concept where I have to jump through hoops cause I was new. So many human beings disgust me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apache Posted July 12, 2011 Report Share Posted July 12, 2011 Haha, try working for nurses in the psych hospital, what a *****y bunch! Or my friend who works as a pseudo-social worker with a psych degree for disabled kids gets *****ed at by nurses all the time... In addition to these issues, there is still quite a bit of bullying that goes on in professions where people make much less than 60K, so lowering doctors' income probably wouldn't solve the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmorelan Posted July 12, 2011 Report Share Posted July 12, 2011 The best way to solve this problem is to cap doctor's earnings at 60-100k. Instantly, 3/4 of the applicant pool will run away and only those who genuinely want to become a doctor will be left. I know I would still want to become a doctor if I only made 60k. As for med school debt, my parents are paying for all education costs. However, I think the solution would be to make med school free. The assumption in all of that is that the pool of applicants that is left would be make as good a set of doctors as the one that is excluded (ie people that are in large part motivated for money actually make worse doctors). While I certainly seriously lean towards medicine being a calling more than a career I cannot say that there is any actually evidence that assumption is actually true. Some of the most effective doctors I know aren't actually and just view medicine as a job - actually it has been similar in a variety of other professional I have worked or interacted with. Now those doctors don't make the best advocates, teachers, researchers, or some particular medical specialists etc but in direct patient care in their area they can be extremely good doctors. and to make my point clear it is never really so black and white as the debates on this forum make it out to be. No one goes in to medicine strictly for the money to the all exclusion of all else or at least shouldn't - if they did they would be making a mistake. It might be a major reason, it might be a key requirement of any career they chose, but it almost certainly isn't the only reason or they are going to hate or at least be bored over most of their waking hours for most of their life Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nobodycirclesthewagons Posted July 12, 2011 Report Share Posted July 12, 2011 muse, if I may, what made you want to switch into dents? I remember you saying you wanted to go into psych. Dent seems quite a bit different than that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerena Posted July 12, 2011 Report Share Posted July 12, 2011 The assumption in all of that is that the pool of applicants that is left would be make as good a set of doctors as the one that is excluded (ie people that are in large part motivated for money actually make worse doctors). While I certainly seriously lean towards medicine being a calling more than a career I cannot say that there is any actually evidence that assumption is actually true. Some of the most effective doctors I know aren't actually and just view medicine as a job - actually it has been similar in a variety of other professional I have worked or interacted with. Now those doctors don't make the best advocates, teachers, researchers, or some particular medical specialists etc but in direct patient care in their area they can be extremely good doctors. and to make my point clear it is never really so black and white as the debates on this forum make it out to be. No one goes in to medicine strictly for the money to the all exclusion of all else or at least shouldn't - if they did they would be making a mistake. It might be a major reason, it might be a key requirement of any career they chose, but it almost certainly isn't the only reason or they are going to hate or at least be bored over most of their waking hours for most of their life I like this post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EoE Posted July 12, 2011 Report Share Posted July 12, 2011 I like this post Agreed! I especially like the point that things are not as black and white as some would make them out to be. I understand that bullying is inapprops, but what about being yelled at for making a mistake? Lets not forget that medical trainees are being taught to handle life and death decisions. There is thus very little room for error. If you hook up a ventilator wrong and almost kill a patient, would you subject yourself to being yelled at? Would you deserve it? Would you ever do it again if you were yelled at and embarrassed in this way? I kind of expect to be chewed out a bunch of times in medical school and then in residency. Sometimes it is going to be unfair and it will probably amount to bullying, but sometimes I am probably going to deserve it. Same with pimping. I don't see as much of a problem if it is relevant to a patient whose care I am involved with, but I guess there is a line there too, where the questions would no longer be helpful to my education. I don't know because I have never been pimped. I am not looking forward to it though! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peachy Posted July 12, 2011 Report Share Posted July 12, 2011 I understand that bullying is inapprops, but what about being yelled at for making a mistake? Lets not forget that medical trainees are being taught to handle life and death decisions. There is thus very little room for error. If you hook up a ventilator wrong and almost kill a patient, would you subject yourself to being yelled at? Would you deserve it? Would you ever do it again if you were yelled at and embarrassed in this way?Mistakes happen, especially by trainees. They need to be handled in constructive ways. Shame is not an effective teaching tool. If you've made a mistake, it's important to learn from it, and there are far better ways to do that then by yelling at someone. What does happen if you use yelling and other shaming techniques is you teach people not to tell anybody when they make future mistakes -- which can have far more dangerous consequences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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