Australia vs. Caribbean Medical Schools

[teresachang]

Hi Everyone, I would really appreciate some advice. My goal is to do family medicine either in Canada or in the US. Unfortunately, my stats are not competitive enough to get into a north American school. So I have to consider international schools. I was wondering which route would be better for me in terms of being able to come back here for residency/practice? The big 3 in the Caribbeans or Australia? if Australia then which schools in Australia? there are so many!

Thanks

[keepontrying]

Use the search function - tons of threads have been posted/discussed already about this issue. Read the sticky threads at the top for better ideas. For more info on Aussie, go to paging dr. forum.

[teresachang]

Hi, yes I did read about others posing the same questions and debate about the pros/cons. I was hoping for more stats successful match rates. I keep reading different ans from diff ppl. ie, some ppl have said carrabiens carry a bad stigma but they buy seats so it's easier, others have said australia has better schools so it's easier. Other's have also said, it's hard to practice and stay in Aussie if you are not a resident and it's hard to come back as well... I'm just really confused the more i read and search on the forums. Some clarification would be greatly appreciated!

[keepontrying]

I don't know the stats on top of my head, and the published ones fail to tell the whole story anyway. As an estimate, chances of coming back to Canada is probably less than 30%. Certain schools have better chances, but I don't see how the situation will improve for IMGs.

 

Caribbean - Low tuition, tough curriculum to go through, stigma at the end. It's really just an option for US citizens to return to the States. Too many hurdles for Canadians to go through. You'll most likely be stuck in no-man's land after graduation.

 

Aussie - Expensive, better education, no stigma internationally but IMGs are IMGs in Canada. Going to schools like Flinders and ANU med will offer you better chances of getting an internship spot in Aussie in case you fail to match in Canada or US, but consider this: 1) you need to obtain citizenship to enter residency after internship, which shouldn't be that hard once you're a doc already but who knows how long you have to wait and whether your international med student label will remain 2) number of med graduates has increased quite abit in Canada and especially US so it's safe to say that it's getting harder to return to North America 3) if you do get a residency spot in Canada/US, it will most likely be a family med spot, which is right up your alley for NOW (the fact is that people often change their minds during med school because you won't know for sure what you want until elective time).

 

How bad are your stats? And what makes you think that you have zero chance in Canada? Is it impossible to improve your application? These are all things that you need to consider before thinking going abroad, which can be exciting, fun, but also disastrous.

[teresachang]

hey thanks for your quick reply. To answer your question, my stats are 3.3 cGPA, master's degree in biochem, pretty good ECs, low 30s for mcat. so unfortunately, i don't have a chance in canada as most canadian schools have a cut off or average of 3.7 GPA. In fact, at my in province school, I applied last year and got rejected, the admission officer told me that my essays and ECs were above average of accepted applicants, but my GPA is too low and unless i had a plus 40 mcat and that may not be enuf to offset the gpa. He also said grad school degree don't help, and i should retake my first 2 years of undergrad and try again....I really don't want to repeat my undergrad which is why i'm looking into international schools. I just need to figure out which ones will increase my chance of coming back here for family residency (i know both are crappy but the lesser of 2 evils?) thanks again

[keepontrying]

What province are you from? Not many schools, if any, offer post-interview feedbacks. For the MCAT to worth so much in your school, I'm assuming it's Manitoba? Grad school degree helps for UofT, that's it, so you should try there. Have you thought of DO schools? If family med is what you want, dead-sure, then DO schools will be the best bet. If you are afraid of the DO stigma, then Aussie would be a good choice (Flinders and ANU only because of the internship problems in other states). Everyone I know who went to Caribbean is banking on matching to the States, not Canada, so I don't see that as a viable option for you. Perhaps others can shed light on this issue.

[teresachang]

thanks so much for your advice! Appreciate it! If others have any suggestions, please reply! I'll look into the 2 Aussie schools you mentioned. I don't mind matching back to the US as long as it's a decent size city. I just prefer to stay in North America.

[leviathan]

Going to Australia or Ireland or the UK are your best choices, IF you have rich parents who can cosign a loan in the 300k-400k range for you, and you're OK with that kind of debt load. I may be biased but I doubt the education is any better than any of the established Caribbean schools, but the reputation is certainly better, and you do have a chance at a local residency in Australia which is a bonus.

[keepontrying]

Actually I agree with leviathan. What I meant by better education is that the schools are more established, that's all. Some schools have really good track records but I've heard that some Aussie schools (like the big name ones such as Syd and Queensland) provide sub-par quality of education to international students. Irish schools such as RCSI have become diploma mills for rich kids to get their med degrees as well. These are all anectodal so I don't know how much of these are true, but for the best value, Flinders is probably the best choice.

[leviathan]

Yeah, diploma mills are hardly restricted to the Caribbean!

 

I actually met a student from Queensland who had a condescending attitude towards me for attending a Caribbean school. I was pretty amused at the irony of the situation. I heard they admit as many students as they can physically cram into their lecture halls (300-400+?) and you might as well be attending an online medical school with the level of involvement that they have.

 

Contrast that to my school where there were 40 of us to a class. I remember lots of lectures by amazing profs where we had great discussions back and forth in the class between the students and lecturers. There is definitely some value to having that involvement.

[Mashmetoo]

hello, thought I'd share my 2 cents here. Your stats and your masters would make you a fairly competitive applicant for the vast majority of USDO schools (if you are interested in this path).

 

Regarding what keepontrying alluded to earlier with the "DO stigma", my experience has shown me that it's a premed/med student mentality that basically doesn't exist out in the field. Basically it's like 2 undergraduate students, one went to Mcgill, the other went to Queen's having an argument over which school provided the "better" undergraduate education.

 

I absolutely agree with keepontrying on all his/her other points. Regarding the status of IMGs in Canada. An IMG is an IMG in Canada, it doens't matter where one obtained their med education outside of North America. It's also a simple matter of fact that attending a US school (whether MD or DO) will give you a easier time during the residency match process (with first iteration putting you on the same footing as Canadian graduates). Also, it really isn't that hard to get into a USDO school in terms of hard stats. But the benefits of attending one will pay for itself when residency application time rolls around. If you have the stats to be enrolled in a Caribbean, or Irish, or Aussie school, then you shouldn't have a problem getting into a USDO school either imho.

[Mashmetoo]

Yeah, diploma mills are hardly restricted to the Caribbean!

 

I actually met a student from Queensland who had a condescending attitude towards me for attending a Caribbean school. I was pretty amused at the irony of the situation. I heard they admit as many students as they can physically cram into their lecture halls (300-400+?) and you might as well be attending an online medical school with the level of involvement that they have.

 

Contrast that to my school where there were 40 of us to a class. I remember lots of lectures by amazing profs where we had great discussions back and forth in the class between the students and lecturers. There is definitely some value to having that involvement.

 

You are a good dude Leviathan

[teresachang]

Pardon my ignorance, since I'm not quite familiar with the DO path but can you tell me what some of the limitations a DO would have compared to an MD? I've been to a few osteopath here in Canada mostly when I had issues with backpain/nerve pain and they prescribed various massages/excercises for me. I was under the assumption that they can't treat patients the way MDs do or give certain perscriptions...otherwise why would it be such a difference in terms of getting in?. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Thanks so much guys

[icewine]

I actually met a student from Queensland who had a condescending attitude towards me for attending a Caribbean school. I was pretty amused at the irony of the situation. I heard they admit as many students as they can physically cram into their lecture halls (300-400+?) and you might as well be attending an online medical school with the level of involvement that they have.

 

Agreed. Class sizes at Flinders are less than half that of UQ and they're still pretty unwieldy at times.

 

OP: Honestly it's a toss-up between the top Carib schools and Aussie-pros/cons to each. Better rep at Aussie schools but quality of education is probably the same; also if you're looking at Oz the only schools you should be applying to as an international are in SA (and probably the ACT as well but I'm not too sure on their intern situation so you'll have to do further research). The top Carib schools prepare you heaps better for Step 1 and you will want to write at least that regardless of where you want to practice. Look into DO schools as well.

[Mashmetoo]

Pardon my ignorance, since I'm not quite familiar with the DO path but can you tell me what some of the limitations a DO would have compared to an MD? I've been to a few osteopath here in Canada mostly when I had issues with backpain/nerve pain and they prescribed various massages/excercises for me. I was under the assumption that they can't treat patients the way MDs do or give certain perscriptions...otherwise why would it be such a difference in terms of getting in?. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Thanks so much guys

 

All your questions will be answered by reading my signature links below (the second one). Applying to DO schools FAQs etc etc etc.

 

(PS, you saw an Osteopath, which is not an Osteopathic Physician - I know it's very confusing). Basically, Osteopaths are in the same category as naturopaths, chiropractors, not really doctors in the sense as a MD, or MBBS doctor. An Osteopathic physician is a US trained Osteopathic doctor that has the exact same practice rights as MDs, MBBS, and therefore in the same category as MD, MBBS doctors.

[leviathan]

Agreed. Class sizes at Flinders are less than half that of UQ and they're still pretty unwieldy at times.

 

OP: Honestly it's a toss-up between the top Carib schools and Aussie-pros/cons to each. Better rep at Aussie schools but quality of education is probably the same; also if you're looking at Oz the only schools you should be applying to as an international are in SA (and probably the ACT as well but I'm not too sure on their intern situation so you'll have to do further research). The top Carib schools prepare you heaps better for Step 1 and you will want to write at least that regardless of where you want to practice. Look into DO schools as well.

All good advice. I don't see a problem with the quality of UQ either. I think it's probably a great school, but simply not *better* than any medical school that has been around for decades with a proven track record.

[teresachang]

Hi

 

With regards to application for DOs then, did you just do the AACOMAS application, how similiar is it to the AMCAS. Also with regards to Australian med school, how good is U of Melbourne for IMGS. Thanks again

[keepontrying]

Mash can answer the DO question. As for UMelb, again, IMGs are IMGs, no one cares where you're from if you want to return. UMelb has strong international reputation, but that only matters more in Asia due to their lack of medical schools. You can get a med degree from Oxbridge and you would still have trouble returning to North America.

[teresachang]

Hey Mash,

 

I have a few more questions on applying for DOs.

1) If my goal is to come back to canada for fam res, can i just write the mccee exams and apply like any other MD graduate? instead of the complex and the usmile? how do you plan on scheduling 9 board exams in before 4th year?

 

2) did you have issues getting a line of credit for your loans from the bank? they offer for md schools, just wondering if they offer the same for do schools

 

3) i don't have a letter of recommedation from a mD or do doctor, my reference letters have been from volunteer coordinators, few phd supervisors since i did grad school. will that not allow me to apply?

 

sorry for all the questions!

[Mashmetoo]

Hey Mash,

 

I have a few more questions on applying for DOs.

1) If my goal is to come back to canada for fam res, can i just write the mccee exams and apply like any other MD graduate? instead of the complex and the usmile? how do you plan on scheduling 9 board exams in before 4th year?

 

2) did you have issues getting a line of credit for your loans from the bank? they offer for md schools, just wondering if they offer the same for do schools

 

3) i don't have a letter of recommedation from a mD or do doctor, my reference letters have been from volunteer coordinators, few phd supervisors since i did grad school. will that not allow me to apply?

 

sorry for all the questions!

 

1) No COMLEX = no DO graduation = no residency period.

You can apply to FM or any other residency in BC, ON like any MD graduate. They don't require you to write the COMLEX or USMLE, but you need the COMLEX to graduate, and if you don't have the USMLE done, you have no backup plan in the event that you don't get into a Canadian residency. So protect yourself, you should write both COMLEX and USMLE. (write the USMLE just to increase your chances for US residencies in case Canada doesn't work out.)

Also, the MCCEE rules are being reviewed, so by the time you get there, you may no longer be required to write the MCCEE! - So it's more like 6-7 board exams by the end of 4th year - you take the MCCQEs during residency. (Also, you don't have to take USMLE/COMLEX step 3 until 1st year of residency - so more like 4-5 exams during the 4 years of med school).

 

2) no, but avoid TD - it's pretty hit or miss, some bankers "get it", others are very dull, those guys can be real a$$holes.

 

3) well, you can look for a DO to shadow, lots of people on this forum have done so and have applied and matriculated at DO schools since I started posting. Look around, go on SDN, there's more Canadian support there.

[teresachang]

Hey Mash

 

Sorry, just 1 last question...I like to apply for the DO schools this year so it's a bit too late to find a DO to shadow. Regarding my previous question for LOR. The AAMCAS schools don't require letters from a MD. PHDs were fine. Since all my references were from volutneer directors/phd supervisors...I don't have a letter from a MD or a DO. You think I would be ineligible to apply?

 

Thanks again

[Mashmetoo]

Hey Mash

 

Sorry, just 1 last question...I like to apply for the DO schools this year so it's a bit too late to find a DO to shadow. Regarding my previous question for LOR. The AAMCAS schools don't require letters from a MD. PHDs were fine. Since all my references were from volutneer directors/phd supervisors...I don't have a letter from a MD or a DO. You think I would be ineligible to apply?

 

Thanks again

 

Well, I applied to DO schools in early-mid November, and at that time, I didn't have a MD or DO letter. It's September 12th right now, it takes roughtly 1 month for AACOMAS to verify your application anyhow. You don't have to sent in LORs until you get the secondaries - which will buy you some more months of time. You have at least 2 month of time before you have to submit LORs for secondaries. So not having a DO or MD doctor reference is really not an excuse in my experience. Lots of people have done this with no problems at all. Heck, I didn't even bother shadowing a DO. You can even get your family doctor to write you a letter if you want that LOR badly enough, although I would not recommend this.

 

No DO/MD letter means your secondary application gets stuck in limbo until you can submit the LOR. You can still apply for the primary though, but without a DO/MD letter, there's no point.

[Cottoncandy6827]

Thank you for your information about DO schools. It was very helpful. I was seriously considering schools in Australia before reading your post. Do you have any advice on how best to structure our personal statements for DO schools? I think I have a pretty decent AMCAS statement but I never considered DO until now and most of my experiences are not specifically focused on the ostepathic route. Any advice on how I can rewrite my personal statement to make it a bit more applicable for DO schools? Thank you for your time!

[Mashmetoo]

Thank you for your information about DO schools. It was very helpful. I was seriously considering schools in Australia before reading your post. Do you have any advice on how best to structure our personal statements for DO schools? I think I have a pretty decent AMCAS statement but I never considered DO until now and most of my experiences are not specifically focused on the ostepathic route. Any advice on how I can rewrite my personal statement to make it a bit more applicable for DO schools? Thank you for your time!

 

you set your settings to don't accept PMs, anyways, here's your answers here:

 

1) It's not too late, I applied in November and still got in. But you should overnight or fast mail your applications from this point out if you decide to apply.

 

2) Usually, only the last MCAT matters, however, they will still have access to all your previous MCAT scores. If the MCAT is 25 or below, it is below average for most DO schools. BUT, IF you have US citizenship, it's much easier to be accepted than Canadians, and a lower MCAT will most likely be overlooked. I'd aim for 28+ MCAT, Q is good.

 

3) a lot of schools only want a DO letter, so if you can't get one of those, it won't be possible to apply to them. BUT, if you can get a MD in those countries to write you a letter, you can apply to a lot of other schools that take MD letters. Also, if you get a MBBS, you can explain to your school on what those are.

 

Hope that helps!

[Cottoncandy6827]

Hi Mash

 

Thanks. I guess I just chose the default setting. But anyway, did you have to make the distinction between MD vs. DO and why you chose DO rather than MD in your personal statement? I'm just worried that if they look at all my activites, they can tell my goal was to get into a MD school rather than DO/holistic approach. Do you have any advice on how I can write my personal statement to make it more geared towards that? or if you have links to recommend. Thanks again