Guest katie Posted January 15, 2002 Report Share Posted January 15, 2002 Here is one for ya! I have friend who tried to get into medicine after completing his Bsc Bio 3.8GPA, and then tried again after Msc Micro Bio 3.8GPA, still no dice. Frustrated he applied to and got into law school at UofT (apparently in the top 4 law schools of the world). He completed law school with great marks (straight A's), finished his articleship and says his heart is still in medicine and the corporate law firm world with all the politics and ass kissing is not his cup of tea. He can't see himself doing this for the next 25-30 years. He's not really a schmoozer big wig type, but more down to earth and looking to have a career in family practice in small town. Now here's the question, will Med schools look at him now that he has completed law school? are there actually lawyers in med schools? Will they think he's crazy for enduring all of this schooling to return to med school? On a side not he is now 33 years old, will that affect his chances? Thanks for your input all, I really appreciate your wisdom on "legal eagle" Debbie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Kirsteen Posted January 16, 2002 Report Share Posted January 16, 2002 Hi katie, There are niches for MDs with law degrees; after all, the former head of the AMA possessed both. I don't think his background would be considered a detriment if he has all the "right stuff" for a life in meds. Cheers, Kirsteen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest arcticaguy Posted January 17, 2002 Report Share Posted January 17, 2002 Hey Katie, actually, I do know of 2 students (perhaps they've graduated by now) who have completed a law degree and then decided that medicine was truely what they wanted. They were both students I met briefly on a tour of Dalhousie's med school. They were both in third year and did not regret their decisions. arcticaguy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest llbmd Posted January 17, 2002 Report Share Posted January 17, 2002 Hey, I'm one of those law to medicine people. I did my undergrad in science, and found the transition to law school a bit challenging, not because of the intellectual content, but because it seems to really be a different kind of person that goes to law school. Loud, obnoxious and self-centered comes to mind. By no means does that mean everyone or even close to a majority of people, but I did sense a larger proportion in law school. There were many great people and minds in law as well. I've found the medical school environment much more supportive. People really do seem to care more about each other, at least here in the Canadian medical system, as compared to law school. Mentors, teachers, just about everybody. In law school, I found a disparaging lack of encouragement that as students we should have a social and moral conscience. As far as the work load goes too - medicine is way more work than law school. However, law does teach you to read in a different way allowing you to cover a tremendous amount of material pretty efficiently. I think if you gave a med student the case books a law student was required to read, they would faint. Medical school info seems to be more "dense" in its organization and the reading style accordingly different. There's way more money in law than in medicine, but probably like your friend, that was not the driving force behind my career choice. I just feel more "whole" as well as happy with myself with the work I will be able to do as a doc than anything I could have ever done as a lawyer in the corporate world. The move to medicine can certainly be done with a lot of success. The law degree will benefit your friend in ways that one would not expect. For example, the law does teach you some great things about maneuvering through administration as well as running an effective administration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ian Wong Posted January 17, 2002 Report Share Posted January 17, 2002 Hi llbmd, How far along are you in your medical education? It's great to find medical students on this board, and we'd love to learn from your experiences and such. I took a look at one of my law student's sample exam questions, and found myself scratching my head in disbelief... Just a little too convoluted and in depth for my micro-attention span mind! Ian UBC, Med 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest katie Posted January 17, 2002 Report Share Posted January 17, 2002 Hi llbmd Thanks for the good word, it's funny because my friend was echoing alot of what you are talking about. True as a Corporate Lawyer your starting salaries rival those of a seasoned Neurosurgeon, but you just don't have the job security. I think it's pretty hard to loose your job as a doctor but MBA's and LLB's come and go all the time. Its kind of a stomach churning life. I even remember a friend who completed a BCOMM degree and landed an investment banking job on Bay st. with a starting salary of $55,000US dollars, signing bonus $10,000US, and yearend bonus of 45,000US. In total at the age of 22 they were making 170,000 in Cdn dollars. However they left to do medicine because the lifestyle was horrible (brutal hours, lots of stress and no job security). I think there is something innate in alot of people that drives them to use their intellegence and gifted abilities to serve others. I think these instincts override any monetary aspirations because you will make way way way more in business or law and you won't have the debt either! Good luck to all!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Newguy Posted January 17, 2002 Report Share Posted January 17, 2002 Just curious, how much do doctors make? I've heard (by a family friend who's a doctor) that some specialists can make up to a million dollars a year in BC!!! Is this a realistic statement? I'm in my first undergrad year and is just recently starting to think about a career in medicine. I agree that remuneration as a criterion should not be the most paramount factor when deciding ones career, but in this day and age I certainly am thinking of it as something I should seriously consider. Not to say I would choose to be an Investment banker or a Corporate Lawyer because the income potential is much greater (although I've heard that on average, Lawyers make less than what GP's make in Canada). I have searched throughout the web to find material on the salaries of GP's, specialists, starting salaries, averages, etc. but have found all of the stats and numbers to be VERY inconsistent throughout Canada. Can anyone give me realistic salary figures for doctors in Canada or direct me to a site providing the most accurate information to help answer my question? Also, I hear that U.S. Doctors can make three times what Canadian doctors make...is there a huge difference? If so, can doctors licensed to practice in Canada practice in the U.S.? Thanks everyone. Ian Wong, this web site...what can I say?...my hat is off to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ian Wong Posted January 17, 2002 Report Share Posted January 17, 2002 The vast majority of doctors do not make seven figures. The highest billing doctor I know billed 1.1 million dollars last year, and he's a retinal subspecialist in ophthalmology. Cosmetic doctors (plastic surgeons, dermatologists, and some ophthalmologists and ENTs) can more easily bill seven figure incomes as much of their work is private, and they are therefore able to charge whatever fees they wish. You can search the CaRMS and Residencies forums for previous posts I've made regarding physician salaries, or just hit the links here: American MD Salaries: pub44.ezboard.com/fpremed101frm25.showMessage?topicID=18.topic CMA Salaries: pub44.ezboard.com/fpremed101frm25.showMessage?topicID=15.topic BC Physician Salaries: pub44.ezboard.com/fpremed101frm25.showMessage?topicID=16.topic Ian UBC, Med 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest katie Posted January 17, 2002 Report Share Posted January 17, 2002 But aren't doctors salaries capped IAN? In Ontario I believe its 150K for family physicians and 450K for specialists Is this true? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest strider2004 Posted January 17, 2002 Report Share Posted January 17, 2002 Physicians are capped in what they can bill their respective provinces. However, there are a lot of procedures that patients have to pay for themselves. For instance, rhinoplasty is almost always cosmetic and the province doesn't pay for that. If a plastic surgeon spent his/her entire career doing nosejobs and billing thousands of dollars each, there's nothing that the gov't can do. There was also a recent article in the globe & mail(it was posted on this site earlier) that showed that specialists often have their salary caps lifted if they are in high demand. I believe the cap is closer to $350k for family physicians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Presuming Ed Posted January 17, 2002 Report Share Posted January 17, 2002 I hear you loud and clear re law students. I once asked myself what could be more "grade 9" than grade 9, and found out after 3 years of law. Cliques, arrogance, infantile behaviour, and those were the profs! True, not all the students were like that, but one heck of a sizeable minority. Other than some of the company present, it was a very worth while endeavour. I have, however, decided on medicine as one even more worthwhile. As for another theme of this thread, I would like to ask where people, med students, wannabe's like myself, and others, get the idea that lawyers make more money than doctors? There seems to be an idea that all lawyers make "Bay Street" money (as we say in Ontario - New York state equivalent would be Wall Street). For the record: 1. First year associate at a "Bay St." firm Toronto makes between $85,000 - 95,000. 2. Salary increases at said firms average around $10,000 per year, decreasing as you approach partnership eligibility. 3. Bay St. lawyers represent about 3% of all lawyers in Ontario. 4. Ontario lawyers AVERAGE income is about $105,000 5. Outside of Toronto, average starting salary for a lawyer is about $40,000. 6. Average salary ranges across Canada are LOWER than the Ontario figures; Quebec lawyers are particularly poorly paid, even in Montreal, second biggest city in Canada. 7. Burn out rates for Bay St. type lawyers is very high - fewer than 50% stay longer than 5 years. 8. Overall, in Canada lawyers as a group rank 3rd in income, behind physicians and dentists, but catching up on the dentists. 9. Having said all that, money is not and should not be the concern for entering medicine. A better than decent income is welcome, but satisfaction is paramount. The law just doesn't offer that to me any more. All of which is respectfully submitted... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest katie Posted January 18, 2002 Report Share Posted January 18, 2002 I love the title Ed!!!! BTW did you practice law or just do the schooling and then jump into medicine? I think the salary difference comes in when lawyers hit partner. The average salary of a partner is 700,000-10mill. So everybody shoots for it, like hitting the lottery however as you say those bay street lawyers are a very very small minority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MACMD1997 Posted January 18, 2002 Report Share Posted January 18, 2002 Hello everyone I notice a great deal of concern regarding compensation, debt etc. Trust me, everything will be financially excellent! I am a currently a family doc. I first did a Bcom degree worked a year ( in hellish finance). My friend and I (also bcomm) wanted to open our own business. After brainstorming ideas we thought man doctors clean up, its a safe venture all we need is the schooling. We basically saw how much these MD's were making relative to their great lifestyle so we took all the science prereq's impressed the adcomms with our background and Got accepted to Mac . Did the three years, 2 years residency and boom! In my first year I opened a family practice with my friend , we ran it 8-6 6 days a week and I worked as an associate at another office 4 nights from 6:30-9pm (It was in a mall). My first year income was $302,000. I know I worked alot in year 1 but that was to pay off my debts. In year 1 I paid of $100,000 in debt (med school, Bcomm, prereq's and credit cards). Year 2 our practice was going really strong, I earned $375,000. We overbilled (outside the cap of 352,000) but it be a good 6-7 years before our gov't will come for it so we just invest the overbill in safe investments and keep the profit. In year 2 I had the car (911 of course to get to my patients on time) , 700K house (mortgage of course but payable in 3-4 years). So you can see as a doctor (even family doc's, now specialists they really get into crazy money) by the time you are 34-35 you will be set, don't worry the money will come just clean up and kick ass on the grades grow a great attitude and bubbly personality for the admissions people and your as good as gold. I guess because I come from a business background I am oriented towards money but in medicine you will make more than anyone else and its virtually risk free!! Good luck fight the good fight! "Miami DC.... I perfer versachi, lexus LX 4 and half bullet proof tints if I want some backseat ass" - Notorious B.I.G. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest llbmd Posted January 18, 2002 Report Share Posted January 18, 2002 Yes, I must commend you on your excellent McGill style citation! Ed, you are quite right about the average income of lawyers as compared to doctors. I should have perhaps referred to the upper ceiling on income that was possible if one was to be a lawyer as compared to a doctor (in Canada) Also, although this may exhibit some bias on my part, I believe that med students in general are better students in regard to work ethic and studying and effort - largely in part because there just are fewer seats for med in Canada and it takes a lot more to get a med seat than a law seat. Again, this is just a generalization, so exceptions abound. But I seemed to notice too many slackers hanging around the law school quite a bit compared to med. Apart from that, many students didn't really didn't know if they wanted to be a lawyer, and so were just along for something to do. I noticed many dropouts from law school - a rare occurrence in any medical school in Canada. I think that if med students were placed in a law school and if they kept the same work ethic, would probably succeed very well in law, and thus land a high paying associate position in Toronto or the US (New York??) - and in a few years make partner and have a very large salary (not to mention headache) at a much earlier age than they could as a doctor. (Perhaps they wouldn't live as long, however, with all that stress?) That was perhaps the basis for my saying there is more money in law. I do corroborate Ed's submission that lawyers, on average, make less than the average doc. Being a lawyer is not an easy path to money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Presuming Ed Posted January 18, 2002 Report Share Posted January 18, 2002 Hey LLB and Katie, yes, surprising the slackers at law school. Given that it's no easy task to get in there either (1 in 10 applicants my year), you'd think people would at least show up! We had one guy almost expelled for not attending any classes! While not "easy", I imagine it's no comparison to med school (did I mention I'm merely an applicant at the moment?). I do, however, think law would make good training, given the independent work ethic required, but also the teamwork necessary at times. Critical thinking skills were learned, analysing fact situations, digging for facts, etc., etc. While a VERY few Bay St. partners (and certainly more in NYC, London England, etc) make the huge numbers you (Katie)noted, the sad reality for most of us practising law is that the money is for the most part okay to start, and only better than average after a number of years. For my part, I work at a regional office of a national firm. I started at $55,000, 62K next year, and 70K now. Nothing to sneeze at, but hardly Jaguar XK8 money! My firm's Toronto office pays at $88,000, 95K and 105K for the same years' experience. So you can see, even within firms there is no gold standard! Most ( >90%) lawyers in Ontario are either sole practitioners or in small firms (2-20 lawyers). On average, associates will make between 35 and 70K, partners between 100K and 200K. Sole practioners in Ontario in 1999 had average incomes (after expenses) of less than 100K. It really varies. Comparing my stats, the next largest office in my town (it's an independent firm, not an office as part of a nation-wide firm) starts its new associates at, ready for this gang?, $37,500! WOW! And believe me, they aren't putting in 40 hour work weeks! Makes residency appear more appetizing, doesn't it? I guess my point is, people think (erroneously), that MD = millionaire. Truth is, people also think LLB = millionaire. Neither is true, but the average doctor is taking home more than the average lawyer. So all of you out there thinking, "hey, didn't make med, so law school is the easy way to big bucks", think again! Not a bad living (money wise), but soul destroying. Presuming Ed, LL.B. P.S. Presuming Ed is a character in the movie "Withnail & I" Later! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Presuming Ed Posted January 18, 2002 Report Share Posted January 18, 2002 Hey LLB, yes, surprising the slackers at law school. Given that it's no easy task to get in there either (1 in 10 applicants my year), you'd think people would at least show up! We had one guy almost expelled for not attending any classes! While not "easy", I imagine it's no comparison to med school (did I mention I'm merely an applicant at the moment?). I do, however, think law would make good training, given the independent work ethic required, but also the teamwork necessary at times. Critical thinking skills were learned, analysing fact situations, digging for facts, etc., etc. While a VERY few Bay St. partners (and certainly more in NYC, London England, etc) make the huge numbers you noted, the sad reality for those of us still practising law is that the money is for the most part okay to start, and only better than average after a number of years. For my part, I work at a regional office of a national firm. I started at $55,000, 62K next year, and 70K now. Nothing to sneeze at, but hardly Jaguar XK8 money! My firm's Toronto office pays at $88,000, 95K and 105K for the same years' experience. So you can see, even within firms there is no gold standard! On the other hand, the next largest office in my town starts its new associates at, ready for this gang?, $37,500! WOW! And believe me, they aren't putting in 40 hour work weeks! Makes residency appear more appetizing, doesn't it? I guess my point is, people think (erroneously), that MD = millionaire. Truth is, people also think LLB = millionaire. Neither is true, but the average doctor is taking home more than the average lawyer. So all of you out there thinking, "hey, didn't make med, so law school is the easy way to big bucks", think again! Not a bad living (money wise), but soul destroying. Presuming Ed, LL.B. P.S. Presuming Ed is a character in the movie "Withnail & I" Later! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Presuming Ed Posted January 18, 2002 Report Share Posted January 18, 2002 LLB, the McGill citation guide is a lawyer's bible - having Constance Backhouse as first year small group prof who deducted marks for improper citation didn't hurt either! In loving memory of Lord Denning..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest SharonUofTYear3 Posted January 18, 2002 Report Share Posted January 18, 2002 Hey MACMD1997 Cool man I like a guy who goes for what he wants! It's refreshing to see someone with a monetary focus and a deifferent attitude on these boards. It's so true, one major factor that draws people into meds is the money, I know I wouldn't go through this if I made 40K in the end and neither would most people but it's "not the right thing" to talk about compensation it's all about "helping people" (sure,sure!!!). I notice the monetary focus of the business grads who got in at UofT meds (Bcomm, MBA) I think the profession needs more of a business focus as the health care system is falling apart without efficient management. To be honest UofT meds is now favouring people with business backgrounds because they add such a different perspective to the class (well spoken, polished and business oriented). As I was on the UofTadcomms as a student rep. they actually (as a joke but then was left on the evaluation sheet) had a column that you would check after the interview stating B.G. It stood for Bio Geek. It's just unfortunate that Science people focus soooo much on grades they forget to develop interview skills, conversation skills and an interesting personality. This is not saying all science people fall into this category but when we see a business grad who speaks well, is focused and driven, comes in dressed to the nines and puts on an impressive performance, the science guy/gal who is looking down more than at us, can't hold a conversation, and is nervous as hell gets the old BG check mark. Not to say they are not a nice person but you have to develop your interpersonality skills for this career, its not about sticking your nose in a book or beaker. Good luck to all, just some helpful advice Please don't be mad! Sharon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bmy1 Posted January 19, 2002 Report Share Posted January 19, 2002 This discussion has got me thinking. I am applying to both medicine and law this year with a sub-stellar GPA and a 34 Q MCAT. Meds-wise, I applied to Western, Mac, and 8 US schools. My undergrad background is in science, and I've done all the volunteer/hospital/lab stuff. Now, Medicine is still my first choice, but I applied to Law as a backup, and I have received acceptance letters (for law) from Osgoode and Ottawa so far. I am awaiting interviews/rejections from the US (and I know the two Ontario schools I applied to are longshots) before I decide on what to do for next year. It's difficult for me to describe what kind of person I am, but in brief, I guess I'm pretty down-to-earth. I like working in the community, esp. with kids. I definitely wouldn't consider myself the poli sci type who is hard-core into debating and student politics. However, I am outgoing, sociable, and I have a "business/b-com" edge to my personality. I'm always looking for ways to make an extra buck or two, be it stocks, e-bay (you'd be surprised how much $$ you can make!), etc. So, to the med students/applicants who completed their law degrees, I pose these questions: 1) Based on my (very brief) self-description, do you think I would enjoy the law school experience should I not get accepted to any medical schools? 2) What law schools (in Ontario and in Canada) are the best in terms of academics, articling/jobs, and students? Advice would be greatly appreciated. thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest monkey Posted January 19, 2002 Report Share Posted January 19, 2002 I agree that there needs to be more people in medicine with a background in management and business. More and more I have come to see that the quality of the health care system also depends on an efficient allocation and use of money. In addition, I also agree that medicine is a profession as well as a way of making a living. However, I must say that drive for monetary compensation sometimes conflicts with the interest of the patients. Doctors are often approached by drug companies and alike to promote their products. Often this can result in handsome renumerations. If the doctor in question becomes to focussed on the renumeration, their assessment of the evidence supporting clinical effectiveness of the drug may be biased to a fault. If they are an investigator in a clinical trial with that drug, then there will definately be conflict of interest. Some journals require investigators to disclose conflict of interest while others do not. In fact, that is why there is an independent "watch dog" groups in BC now called Therapeutics Initiative which focusses on systematically reviews new drug submissions for pharmacare to determine whether there is evidence demonstrating therapeutic advantage over existing therapies. I guess I am trying to pose a question, and the question is this. If the patient was your mother or your grandfather or your aunt, would you want your doctor to being thinking about the money while being the primary care provider? I for one would not. I am also glad that in business there are also people with sense of corporate citzenship and community responsibility. Take Jack Welch, the CEO of GE for twenty years. He says that one of his greatest accomplishments in leading the company is supporting the transition of an elite GE club into a club of community volunteers...one open to white collar workers and blue collar workers alike. A successful business man who has maintained a lot of integrity through the corporate race and also has an amazing heart for people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest UWOMED2005 Posted January 19, 2002 Report Share Posted January 19, 2002 Interesting points. . . I must say I agree with you entirely. Unfortunately, physicians must keep tabs on health care resource allocation (both that of government health resources and their own time and energy) but their first and foremost concern should be that their patients receive the highest standard of care reasonable. That being said, inappropriate support of pharmaceutical companies is only one way, and a relatively rare one, that income-centred physician can harm their patients. . . what about inappropriate allocation of time to patient appointments? I've seen a number of physicians try and book patients in 5 minute intervals to maximize billings. I've even had a resident try to show me how to use directed questions to cut interview times down. . . yet when physicians have used the same tactics with me, I've usually found they've missed half of what I was trying to say - I've even had them prescribe drugs that I knew were completely inappropriate for me just because they wouldn't listen to me. . . MACMD1997 - you're post came as somewhat comforting to me as a number of times this year I've had fears that if I choose a "lower-paying" specialty I'd be condemning myself to years of loan-repayments. . . every time I take more money out on my credit line I can't help but think about the mad amounts of interest the banks will be making off me. One quick question for you though - in reaching the billing levels you do as a family physician, how much time do you get to spend with each patient? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MACMD1997 Posted January 20, 2002 Report Share Posted January 20, 2002 Hi there In know the terror you must feel but rest assured if you approach your career strategically you will not face financial hardship due to choice of career. Lets face it my friend and I never had this big dream of being doctors since we were nine months old or whatever, we wanted a low risk/ high monetary reward business venture after we graduated undergrad and medicine gave us that! The amount of time we spend per patient as Im sure you know really varies depending on who you are seeing and why you are seeing them. In family practice nothing is life/death as in some surgical specialties. Often I feel like a councellor or friend to lean on. We get alot of teens who don't want to be in there too long (usually questions about sex, paranoid about STD's, ie I did this when I was drunk do you think I have AIDS now?) Then we have elders who are very concerned about usually trivial problems, so that takes a bit longer in terms of conceptuallzing their issues and helping them cope with the problem. Its bascially alot of educating people on concerns they have. The other half of our job is you guessed it flues,flues,flues. Those seem to bill at influenza 20 min dignose,check,recall appt. We don't screw people because personally I'm very social and I love talking to people. I know alot of friends who got into family meds and they hate it. I think everyone is bright eyed and bushy tailed when they start but the job wears alot of people down. I always hear patients aren't grateful, they treat us like garbage, this is so boring, the hospital is such bullshit with their policies. These same pissed off doctors go and endorse crap to "get back" at their mean patients and the health care system. Personally I don't care how the patients behave, I jsut say to myself think of how much you are going to bill for this and suddenly I love this patient! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest UWOMED2005 Posted January 20, 2002 Report Share Posted January 20, 2002 Thanks for alleviating my worries. . . to be honest, I don't see this pursuit as solely a business venture but fully recognize the advantages of a business background when operating a practice, and also sometimes in dealing with the emotional garbage that accompanies the profession. Having talked to a number of practicing MDs, I also realize that the nature of the profession wears many physicans down. . . interesting take on how the business approach can alleviate that. Thanks for your perspective! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest strider2004 Posted January 20, 2002 Report Share Posted January 20, 2002 I just attended a dental student conference this weekend (yeah, I was a fake UofT dentistry student) and they had seminars are building your dental practise and managing your finances. THis is something that I haven't seen in medicine, damnit! I'm gonna contact the CFMS and try to arrange something. MD Management is nice but I don't think it's used to its full potential. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest RAK2005 Posted January 21, 2002 Report Share Posted January 21, 2002 I know that the OMA offers a number of courses on practice management, run in various cities (mainly TO and Ottawa). It would be GREAT if they'd come the Ontario medical schools and give a talk. As for the aspect of the business side of medicine, I think it is a mix of service, compassion AND managing income... and although we tend to be passionate about meds, in reality it is only a JOB afterall. After 10 years or so, going into the hospital will likely be less "glamourous" in comparison with our current outlook. I am just glad that I found a profession that I am proud to be part of, which can be quite rewarding in the financial and personal side of things...just my two-cents. PS-two cents Canadian = approx. $10 US Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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