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why WOULDN'T I get in??


Guest tommygirl

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Guest tommygirl

HI everybody.

 

Just a quick qxs for everybody on this forum who has interviewed in years past and not been accepted... do you have any idea as to why you DIDN'T get in?

 

The reason I am asking is that this waiting period is driving me crazy-- one day I am convinced I am a shoo-in and the next I am sure the ad com is having a good laugh when looking at my file.

 

In addition, in the last few months I have met several people who are well-rounded, smart and would (probably) do a good interview who have been REPEATEDLY rejected/wait-listed.

(??!!!??)

 

This process is often so freaking abstract-- Unless you are a superstar or a bottomfeeder, I am not really sure what distinguishes those students that get in and those that are left off at the end of the day...

 

Anyway-- a little clarity would help here. Thanks.

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Guest Money Man

Well... Consider paying the ad-coms off? :)

 

Just kidding.

 

I think Hummer is right. Luck plays a big role. That's why you spend lots of $ and apply everywhere.

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Guest SMile

Every schools wants a different kind of applicant so we can't assume that the 3.99\45S\5 publication people will get into meds.

 

ie. UT look look very favourably upon people with high grades, but Mac wont! Mac looks more towards your personality and your achievements(as well as that harsh interview)!

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but even the "perfect stats" people get rejected from U of T. Not all of them, but some of them. LUCK is the name of the game, all right... The people who get in are good, but so are the people who get rejected. There are just too many great applicants, and not enough spots for them all...

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Guest hummer

Its luck baby :)

 

You show me an outstanding candidate that got rejected and I will show you a complete socially inept moron that got accepted :)

 

 

Its in the dice

 

Dammmmm

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There was a post in the Delphi forums from a guy with a high GPA (3.95ish) who got an interview at Mac (so he must have done some pretty interesting stuff) but was rejected by U of T without an interview. He made the MCAT cutoffs, too. That shows the huge amount of subjectivity involved in this whole process.

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Guest toratora

I agree, there is really no justification for the people who get accepted vs those turned away. Its pure good ol' chance !!!!!

 

I actually know quite a few people who have gotten accepted and have absolutely no place in medical school. (ie one who delt drugs in high school, and had sex with two minors in university....and bragged about it none the less) I guess the useless selection process explains the endless list of physicians facing disiplinary actions by the OMA. Go to their website and read about the literally hundreds of cases of doctors sexually abusing patients, double billing, complete incompetent performance leading to death of patients etc etc etc.

 

 

Way to go med schools, ya sure know how to pick the losers!

 

Good luck as in luck is the only factor involved here

 

ToraTora to Spain we go

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Guest Ian Wong

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote>Quote:<hr> Way to go med schools, ya sure know how to pick the losers!<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END-->

 

A little harsh, don't you think? The very vast majority of med students are good people at heart. As for the rest of them, it really depends on how well they keep their personal life separate from their professional life.

 

Ian

UBC, Med 3

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Guest PeterHill0501

I completely agree Ian. This sound perhaps like an individual who has not been accepted?

 

I'm not sure how anybody can say the application, interview and acceptance process is random. My belief, is that there are characteristics that the adcoms looks for, aside from academic record, that may not be apparent to those who do not possess them! Perhaps the mere fact that one can so easily say the process is a game of chance indicates lack of sensitivity and introspective prowess required to listen for feedback, really hear it, internalize the bits of value it possesses, look inwards and continuously improve oneself based on it. I've received feedback over the years which I was surprised at...totally misaligned with who I believe I am...but, you see, this is the most valuable feedback of all...because it brings into consciousness those things we are unaware of...this is the seed of true reflection and change. Every time I have taken the opportunity to better understand why someone might give me feedback that seems to distasteful or uncharacteristic of who I think I am I have discovered something very important.

 

I don't believe literally dozens of brilliant people from the top universities in the country would create or support a random system to select the candidates they believe have the characteristics to succeed as the next generation of doctors...money man...j...toratora...hummer...take the opportunity to look for other characteristics that may have caused people you know to be rejected. Also, keep in mind, you likely don't know many of these candidates very well...they could have displayed quite untoward characteristics in their interview...just something to consider.

 

Peter

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Guest toratora

Hello PeterHill

 

I agree with you that feedback and self improvement based on a critical review of one's talents is imperative to moving forward and reaching one's goal, however med school applications are not as such. There is no other way to justify why in one year a person applies to Mac and receives an interview with a score in the 90th percentile while the following year the candidate is rejected with an essay score (based on the same essay) in the 15th percentile.

 

How else can you explain a 22 year guy who sleeps with two 11 year old girls, yet shines in an interview intented to dissect a person's moral and ethical belief system. In the same breath an excellent candidate, who spent years helping the poor working full time and excelling academically gets the FOAD (@#%$ off and die) rejection letter in the mail. I have seen enough to know the process is left largely to chance/crapshoot/whatever. Maybe Peter you should go and attend some medschool classes, and you will realize that the students there are not the ones that you concepualize and hold in such high regard. A great deal of them you will find to be quite snobby/cliquee with a certain "bigger than life" attitude. Is this what we call compassion? These people are not the stuff caring folk are made of. Sure they may have won every award in the book, and lived a privelaged life full of travel/lessons/excitement on mommy and daddy's bank roll but is that what makes a caring indivual? Sounds like the ingredients for a spoiled brat but not one of a doc I would want.

 

You see Peter, you have a great attitude but the Med school process is a little activity that takes place away from all that is good in this world. you have entered into the abyss.....a universe where bias,eliteism and chance are the laws of the land.

 

Good luck to you. BTW I am not a rejected applicant but will be applying next year. I am just commenting on what I have seen thus far and my experiences as well as others close to me.

 

Toratora

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Peter,

I agree that the vast majority of students that get in do deserve to be there. But I really doubt that all rejected applicants have some horrible flaw that keeps them out. If all the applicants in one cycle applied again the next year, I'm sure the composition of the class would end up different (of course there are many that would get in again, but there are also some that would not).

 

Check out the UBC forum, where there is a discussion on people who have been accepted to several top 10 American schools but were rejected from UBC with ridiculous interview rankings like 5th percentile. Now I'm sure that all schools don't look for exactly the same characteristics, but it's safe to say that what they DO want is at least reasonably similar, such as good motivation, sensitivity to others, strong communication skills, good analytical skills, academic ability, etc. How could one perform so well in a more competitive application process (at Duke, UPenn, etc. they can interview as many as 5 or 6 people for each spot in the class, which is much higher than here in Canada), yet so dismally here?

 

How do you explain get rejected one year with a seemingly great interview (with the interviewer saying "excellent job", etc.) yet accepted by the same school the next year after performing badly?

 

What about people who get an amazing autobio score from Mac one year (e.g. 95th percentile) yet rejected the next year with a much lower score (e.g. 50th percentile) with the EXACT same answers to the EXACT same questions? There are many people that this has happened to. Did the standards for proving that you are a good self directed learner and good team player suddenly shoot up in the past year? BTW, I'm just picking on Mac because they actually release your autobio score to you; I'm sure this happens at other schools (U of T, Ottawa, etc.) as well, even if only to a lesser extent.

 

What I think explains all of this is the subjectivity of the evaluators. It's not "luck" in the sense that they randomly draw names out of a hat and accept those people, but sometimes it just depends on who is interviewing you or reading your essay. You might "click" with some of them, but not with others.

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Guest Thewonderer

I am just checking this board once in a while, and I was just going to make the comment that you have not seen what CAN go behind the door until you see what UBC med has done in the past.

 

Some people from the thread have communicated in private through e-mail. Apparently, one person was told by Dr. Bates that he is not fit to be a doctor (except he was later accepted by 3 out-of-province med schools). It is weird that a person with so much bias can sit atop the admissions board and wilts her power. Top 4 physiology students from one year at UBC either was forced (i.e. no love from UBC med) or decided to (i.e. got in but was convinced by the profs at UBC they talked to) attend med school elsewhere.

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Guest PeterHill0501

toratora...

 

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote>Quote:<hr> How else can you explain a 22 year guy who sleeps with two 11 year old girls, yet shines in an interview intented to dissect a person's moral and ethical belief system. In the same breath an excellent candidate, who spent years helping the poor working full time and excelling academically gets the FOAD (@#%$ off and die) rejection letter in the mail. I have seen enough to know the process is left largely to chance/crapshoot/whatever.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END-->

 

I didn't say that everyone who gets accepted or rejected is golden or that the process isn't without problems. I believe what I said what that the system isn't random and that there are criteria which are used to differentiate between candidates. A somewhat lame analogy might be appropriate here...just because a student works his or her butt off and is a great person doesn't mean they will achieve an "A". How can I possibly explain the scenario you talk about above? First, I think people can change between how they are high school and how they are when they apply to med school. Second, I think that people's success/lack of success may be quite dependent on the particular pool of candidates each year.

 

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote>Quote:<hr> Maybe Peter you should go and attend some medschool classes, and you will realize that the students there are not the ones that you concepualize and hold in such high regard. A great deal of them you will find to be quite snobby/cliquee with a certain "bigger than life" attitude. Is this what we call compassion? These people are not the stuff caring folk are made of. Sure they may have won every award in the book, and lived a privelaged life full of travel/lessons/excitement on mommy and daddy's bank roll but is that what makes a caring indivual? Sounds like the ingredients for a spoiled brat but not one of a doc I would want.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END-->

 

First...I would like to say that I actually do know many people who have been or are in med school...my wife is a practicing physician and as a result many of our friends and acquaintences are in medicine...so I guess I am quite familiar with the types of people in med school and medicine in general. There will always be nice and not nice people in every facet of life...I've just learned to live with that. With respect to compassion...sure...there are tons of people, doctors included, who aren't terribly compassionate and many more who I wouldn't want as physicians...but again, this is a human characteristic that varies across individuals...what you might think is compassionate I might think is completely unfeeling and cold...in short, one's perception of this quite subjective. Do many people in med school (or those that are practicing physicians for that matter) have a "bigger than life attitude"? I think that many do...and many don't. I think that many of the people who do will change by the time they get humbled through academics and residency...

 

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote>Quote:<hr> You see Peter, you have a great attitude but the Med school process is a little activity that takes place away from all that is good in this world. you have entered into the abyss.....a universe where bias,eliteism and chance are the laws of the land.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END-->

 

This sounds a bit like conspiracy paranoia...tease...I like to think that there is some order...it does undoubtedly have a subjective component...but that somehow docs keep graduating and many provide excellent health care to patients. I guess I may not be in as much of a rush as others...if I don't get in this year...I will eventually...

 

Thanks for your opinions and feedback...it's always nice to hear a different point of view.

 

Peter

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Guest PeterHill0501

J,

 

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote>Quote:<hr> I agree that the vast majority of students that get in do deserve to be there. But I really doubt that all rejected applicants have some horrible flaw that keeps them out.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END-->

 

I agree totally...I do believe many people who would do really well and turn out to be fantastic docs do get rejected...unfortunately, the process isn't perfect. Hopefully, the people who do get in, or at least the majority of them, will finish and promote excellent health care.

 

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote>Quote:<hr> How do you explain get rejected one year with a seemingly great interview (with the interviewer saying "excellent job", etc.) yet accepted by the same school the next year after performing badly?<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END-->

 

I think it could depend on a number of things...who is saying the interview was, in fact, good one year and poor the next. Following the threads in this forum it is clear that people have no idea how they actually did...I'm the same...one day I think I aced the interview...the next I remember some clumsy moment that makes me feel like I wouldn't have a chance of getting an offer. Also, from one year to the next there are very different pools of candidates...I believe as time goes on we are seeing more and more people applying...therefore there are likely larger and larger numbers of good candidates each year. Ithink the autobiographical sketch issue could also stem from the pool of candidates...are the sketches not compared with one another to determine the final score?

 

I think the personalities of the interviewers...their gender...their baggage...how they're feeling on a particular day...all impacts the interview. Again, I don't think the process is without error or subjectivity. However, since there are typically several interviewers, hopefully, random effects like this get washed out to a large extent.

 

Again, I really appreciate the ability to have these types of discussions...it's great to debate issues like this. Thanks for your input and for providing me with an opportunity to reflect on what I believe in.

 

Peter

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Guest ToPeter

The doctors you know (because of your wife) may only be nice towards you and your wife because they are your friends. But how do they treat other people who are not their friends? That is the true test of their characters, which, you will unlikely see.

 

Let's face it, many people, once in med school, develop a demigod complex. I've seen it... the humblest of them becoming more self-confident and egotistical.

 

I have already been accepted to a top ten school in the states and am waiting for my results in Canada. Heck, even I'm getting to the point where I want to brag a bit. I repress it, but you gotta admit, it's HARD. In front of my friends, I don't say much. But if some as*hole on the street gives me crap, I'm very tempted to say, "I'm going to be a doctor at this prestigous med school. WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO BE?"

 

I will give it to you at face value. Many med students insist that their class is full of wonderful people, etc. Possibly true, but I tend to believe that med schools are full of overachievers with a life sci premed attitude. Isn't this true? Aren't these the same people in your life sci premed classes? I understand if many people on the internet wants to sound righteous and say the right things, but reality is different.

 

Think about it Peter.

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Guest BC guy

Wonderer: But Dr. Bates is the only chance for the academically poorer students to get into UBC at med school (except for MAC). I would imagine that these students are very grateful.

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Guest Ian Wong

I think you see it constantly. This projection of everybody being "awesome people" in med school is crap and all the med students are essentially ensuring the reputation of their respective med school by spewing it. If you look closely you do see the aire of arrogance in the med student's posts.

 

 

 

Edited... :) Ian

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Guest leather cheerio

Believe it or not, the most superficial things come into play during an interview (i.e. looks). No, I'm not talking about proper hygiene or grooming, but if someone is hot or not. Sorry to say, but I've had "friends" that interviewed people and when the left the room, they made fun of how fat a person was, or how hot a chick was or how much of geek someone was. Just like any other job, looks and personality are critical. It would be naive to think otherwise. By the interview process, everyone is more or less capable academically. Most current medical students who help out during interviews are looking for hot chicks they can potentially hit on and other "cool" guys that they can party with later. However, there are many geeks that are ugly and/or socially inept who end up getting in simply because of the weight distribution of the GPA/interview ratio. I can't comment on what faculty members or community members think, but that's how my "friends" who are current students think. Of course, publically they'll tell you that they are looking this or that, but this or that usually means T&A. That's why in any med school the class is usually polarized into geeks and the cool people - just like anywhere else in life. I'm not saying it's right, but that's the way it is. Just talk to any current medical student and they'll tell you how they hate the majority of their classmates (except for their friends). It's hard to believe that high school attitudes like this run rampant, but it's true. Do you really think interviewers (especially the male medical students) really care why you want to be a doctor when they ask this question to dozens of others people and hear more or less the same answer? If you're a good looking girl, they are most likely thinking of how they're going to hook you up with old exams etc. so later on you'll hook up with them. Go to any med school and you'll be surprised at how many skip class (even exams) or sleep during lecture. Medical students aren't necessarily these noble people like some others think they are (but some are, just like anywhere else in life). Study hard, and if you get your interview, act like you're at a club and you're trying to pick up. Don't worry, if you're a geek with very good numbers, you'll still get in due to the GPA/interview breakdown.

 

So the next time one of your ugly or socially inept friends scratch their head and wonders why they didn't get in, you'll know. Good luck!

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Guest PeterHill0501

Thanks for the post ToPeter...hey...I know that people are people...I've seen the ugly side of the medical profession as well (remember, my wife is a physician who has just finished residency within the last 7 months or so). I personally believe these people are very much like people in other facets of my life that I've met. My friends are likely different than those you talk of...I don't hang out with people who don't have the same values as I have...I've seen them at work...I've seen how they treat nurses, porters, colleagues, students, etc., they are as respectful to them as they are to me. I have seen the other side as well...I've seen staff being rude, inconsiderate and blatently abusive to residents and medical students...I've seen cliques that various people in my wife's class were involved in...the backstabbing, etc....but I'm not sure this is so different than other places I've worked, or interest groups I've been a part of.

 

I think it's great that people talk openly about the less pleasant side of medicine and medical school...it exists for sure...but I guess I have seen/though/experienced it enough to know how to deal with it or avoid it, as the case may be.

 

Anyway thanks for the discussion.

 

Peter

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Guest Venessa

I totally agree, All the people that I know who are in meds are total pigs. however I want to get in

 

 

I'm getting breast implants this summer before I interveiw for next year. I think it will give me an edge, after all that's what these pricks are looking for!

 

Venessa (double D to Be)

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Guest Ian Wong

You guys crack me up. Seriously though, personal attacks are not welcome, and will get your message deleted immediately. If you want to criticize the admissions process, or medstudents as a collective body, then go nuts as long as personal attacks aren't used.

 

Ian

UBC, Med 3

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I agree with you Peter, I hope these people aren't serious. Maybe they have too much stress upon them with finals and what not or maybe they're jaded...I don't know.

Cheers!

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