esus Posted December 24, 2011 Report Share Posted December 24, 2011 Alright guys so I am in a pretty unfortunate situation. I took an intro philosophy class, and was unpleasantly surprised to see that my final grade was a B+. When I e-mailed the professor what my final grade was, I found out I was 0.4% away from an A-. This mark dropped my cGPA significantly, from a 3.9 to a 3.85. Now here's why I am really ticked. 20% of the grade was a participation grade, I literally attended every lecture, conference, did every reading (except one), and talked at every conference (except, again, one, which was the one I didn't do the reading for since I had an extremely busy week). One of the conferences, this massive reading was assigned (took 8 hours to read), and I was one of the two out of 20+ people who finished it, and that conference was pretty much a discussion between me, the other student, and the TA. So my participation grade was only 82%, and I feel that I at least deserved an 85% (which would bump my grade up to an A-). I feel that this participation grade was entirely subjective and unfair, and made a massive difference in my GPA. I sent an e-mail to my TA, and she just told me to talk to the professor about it. Should I try to convince my professor to raise my final grade? If so how should I go about doing it? Should I directly ask in an e-mail, or should I ask to review my final, and then bring it up in person? Thanks a lot for any advice! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
axialpac Posted December 24, 2011 Report Share Posted December 24, 2011 If you had a 79.6%, wouldn't the professor just round it up? Just point out that fact and also mention how much you contributed. Also, get your TA as a verifier that you actually deserve an 85% for your participation grade--since your professor wasn't actually there to see you participate, and probably won't take your word for it that you deserve a certain mark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McMarauder Posted December 24, 2011 Report Share Posted December 24, 2011 I would say it depends. At a lot of schools, the grade ranges include 1 decimal place.. eg. 76-79.9... So a round up isn't always warranted. edit: from my experience, a lot of profs use "participation" marks as a way to adjust marks to fit grade distributions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArchEnemy Posted December 24, 2011 Report Share Posted December 24, 2011 If you had a 79.6%, wouldn't the professor just round it up? Just point out that fact and also mention how much you contributed. Also, get your TA as a verifier that you actually deserve an 85% for your participation grade--since your professor wasn't actually there to see you participate, and probably won't take your word for it that you deserve a certain mark. Or maybe a 79.1%? Since a 79.5% may be rounded up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
esus Posted December 24, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 24, 2011 Or maybe a 79.1%? Since a 79.5% may be rounded up. Yeah sorry I got a 79.1, and with an 85 participation I would get 79.6, which at my school I think it is custom to round up to an A-. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
osteon Posted December 24, 2011 Report Share Posted December 24, 2011 As a TA, I'll play devils advocate here. I can tell you that no grade is given at random, and each has a reasonable amount of thought/rationale behind it. So if you got a 82 or whatever, they probably felt that's what you deserved and not an 85. Just because you think you deserve a higher mark doesnt make it so; they mark everyone according to the same criteria and won't change it just for you. Not to mention, in my experience and from what I've heard from professors and other TAs, we don't try to screw you. Usually, if you're 0.5% off from a grade point they will try to find a way to bump you up. But, consider this: maybe your actual grade was 77, and the prof bumped everyone up by 2 percent to give you a 79. Now, saying "oh he's/she's only 0.4% away from an A-" doesn't really apply because they've already been generous. Anyways, I'm not saying that any of this is the case, or that you shouldn't ask about your grade; my point is that if you do ask, make sure it doesn't come across as a whine for extra points because you're interested in med. Really there's not much difference between a 3.85 and a 3.9, a B+ wont kill you, and if you piss off the TA/prof because you approach the problem as though you're entitled to a higher grade you will not only not improve your grade but you'll also come off as looking stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MedPen Posted December 24, 2011 Report Share Posted December 24, 2011 So my participation grade was only 82%, and I feel that I at least deserved an 85% (which would bump my grade up to an A-). I feel that this participation grade was entirely subjective and unfair, and made a massive difference in my GPA. I sent an e-mail to my TA, and she just told me to talk to the professor about it.! It doesn't really matter what you feel you deserve, it just matters what you conveyed as deserving. In other words, you might think that you were awesome but if you only managed to be average at the discussion, it's what you showed that counts, not how you think you did. That's why OTHER people evaluate us and we don't evaluate ourselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apache Posted December 25, 2011 Report Share Posted December 25, 2011 as someone who knows a few philosophy ta's who sit in and grade classes for participation i'm going to have to disagree, discussion should be marked on : did the student talk today, and did the student seem like they have any idea what they're talking about (which is fairly obvious most of the time)... full marks... i had a ta who marked me down hardcore because my prof was a quaker and he was a hardcore materialistic reductionist, so he didn't quite like my intepretation of reality, at least as i conveyed them on my exams... so i just took them to the prof to mark... when you're dealing with things like philosophy, sociology, where personal feelings are involved, anyone who sais they mark completely objectively is bullsitting, you can try and mark objectively, but ideas that appeal to your worldview will seem better written because you may be supposing that the writer is intuiting certain logic leaps that are coherant with your worldview because it makes such intuitive sense to you... this will never shift you from a b to d or anything... most people can tell a from b from c papers... but the +'s and -'s... that can be pretty subjective, there are also ta's who think certain viewpoints are absolutely stupid (i.e. that ta who didn't like my criticism of epiphenomenelogical emergent conciousness etc.) and have trouble giving papers that support these ideas good grades. you'd have to write one hell of a paper to convince me that the falsifiability theorem has anything more than utilitarian merit... and i certainly know i'd subconciously be a little stingier with the grading... It doesn't really matter what you feel you deserve, it just matters what you conveyed as deserving. In other words, you might think that you were awesome but if you only managed to be average at the discussion, it's what you showed that counts, not how you think you did. That's why OTHER people evaluate us and we don't evaluate ourselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apache Posted December 25, 2011 Report Share Posted December 25, 2011 lol, i agree with everything you say, a lot of students don't realize that when someone marks intro pysch short written assignments, they're marking like 200, and in reality, if the assignment reads clean and you can get through it quickly, they want to give you an a. however, when you get into the humanities, things are carefully considered in the sense of... ok, this is a B paper... now what do i care about, his ideas, his writing style, originality, complexity of argument, ability to show strengths and weaknesses of both arguments... like for me, a big pet peeve is when students try and write their seminal work proving idealism is true, and realism is bs... they could have written the greatest paper ever in support of idealism... but, if it was that easy... we wouldn't still be talking about the allegory of the cave thousands of years later... i really like papers that are convincing but also self critical, because i think we always need to maintain a good ammount of criticality over our own ideas... more of continental philosophical style... so i might give him a b-, whereas my bertrand russell loving friend may be looking for concision, precision, and the whole typical new analytical philosophy style, which, imo, is better suited for math... however, a person who values the free and clear flow of ideas gives you a b+... the only question is, is wittgenstein marking your paper, or is russell As a TA, I'll play devils advocate here. I can tell you that no grade is given at random, and each has a reasonable amount of thought/rationale behind it. So if you got a 82 or whatever, they probably felt that's what you deserved and not an 85. Just because you think you deserve a higher mark doesnt make it so; they mark everyone according to the same criteria and won't change it just for you. Not to mention, in my experience and from what I've heard from professors and other TAs, we don't try to screw you. Usually, if you're 0.5% off from a grade point they will try to find a way to bump you up. But, consider this: maybe your actual grade was 77, and the prof bumped everyone up by 2 percent to give you a 79. Now, saying "oh he's/she's only 0.4% away from an A-" doesn't really apply because they've already been generous. Anyways, I'm not saying that any of this is the case, or that you shouldn't ask about your grade; my point is that if you do ask, make sure it doesn't come across as a whine for extra points because you're interested in med. Really there's not much difference between a 3.85 and a 3.9, a B+ wont kill you, and if you piss off the TA/prof because you approach the problem as though you're entitled to a higher grade you will not only not improve your grade but you'll also come off as looking stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benge88 Posted December 26, 2011 Report Share Posted December 26, 2011 Didn't we have a bunch of earlier threads about these types of things??? Just to reiterate my feelings - as a marking TA as well - You get what you deserve, quit *****ing and move on! (not including legit things such as adding errors) Honestly, people are getting a little too self entitled as a whole - students really can't go into classes in university and just expect to get grades - that's bull****, no offense OP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
esus Posted December 26, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 26, 2011 Really there's not much difference between a 3.85 and a 3.9 Well, I don't make the GPA cutoff for Ottawa anymore, so I'd say that is a pretty big difference. Thanks for the advice everyone, the mark difference is so small that hopefully I can find some small grading error which can raise my mark, without having to ask about the participation mark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IamIDP Posted December 27, 2011 Report Share Posted December 27, 2011 It is an acedmic penalty to ask your prof. to raise your mark. Beaware of this.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dblu7 Posted December 27, 2011 Report Share Posted December 27, 2011 Take what I'm about to say with a grain of salt, since I've been on the other side as a grad student. That said, unless you think that the prof made an error adding up your grades (not including a "rounding up custom"), don't beg for grades. Basically all they are doing is giving you grades that they don't think you deserve, just so you will leave them alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
osteon Posted December 27, 2011 Report Share Posted December 27, 2011 Well, I don't make the GPA cutoff for Ottawa anymore, so I'd say that is a pretty big difference. Thanks for the advice everyone, the mark difference is so small that hopefully I can find some small grading error which can raise my mark, without having to ask about the participation mark. Good thing you applied (or will apply) to more schools than just Ottawa, right? A 3.85 is a very strong GPA for most schools in Canada. Don't put all your eggs into Ottawa. Each med school in Canada has slightly different entry requirements they want and that helps people tailor their applications to where they are the most competitive. High GPA go Ottawa; good EC's go Calgary; good MCAT go Manitoba. You won't win them all. Also I'm not sure what year you're in, but from the way you're stressing out about this B+ I'd venture to guess you don't have many grades below A-. Many schools, including Ottawa will not count your early/not as strong grades in their gpa calculation. Don't hunt for grades and assume your professor didn't count right. It's pretty disrespectful unless you have something clearly obvious, which it seems like you don't. Suck up the B+ and move on to next semester. You'll be fine. A 3.85 gpa is miles ahead of what many applicants have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Let'sGo1990 Posted December 27, 2011 Report Share Posted December 27, 2011 Good thing you applied (or will apply) to more schools than just Ottawa, right? A 3.85 is a very strong GPA for most schools in Canada. Don't put all your eggs into Ottawa. Each med school in Canada has slightly different entry requirements they want and that helps people tailor their applications to where they are the most competitive. High GPA go Ottawa; good EC's go Calgary; good MCAT go Manitoba. You won't win them all. Also I'm not sure what year you're in, but from the way you're stressing out about this B+ I'd venture to guess you don't have many grades below A-. Many schools, including Ottawa will not count your early/not as strong grades in their gpa calculation. Don't hunt for grades and assume your professor didn't count right. It's pretty disrespectful unless you have something clearly obvious, which it seems like you don't. Suck up the B+ and move on to next semester. You'll be fine. A 3.85 gpa is miles ahead of what many applicants have. What if Ottawa's the one school he would have gotten into? IMO asking for a boost is warranted if the assessments are written and the prof/TA remarks some of your assignments or you are able to present a valid argument as to why you didn't get what you deserved. I look down on people asking for boosts in classes that are purely multiple choice too, but people can and will still ask. It sucks. But as the title of the topic says, life isn't fair. People in general will do whatever they need to achieve their goal (in this case med school). So unfortunately, I doubt that anybody would let the opinions of a few people on a message board get in the way of their ambitions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
osteon Posted December 28, 2011 Report Share Posted December 28, 2011 What if Ottawa's the one school he would have gotten into? IMO asking for a boost is warranted if the assessments are written and the prof/TA remarks some of your assignments or you are able to present a valid argument as to why you didn't get what you deserved. I look down on people asking for boosts in classes that are purely multiple choice too' date=' but people can and will still ask. It sucks. But as the title of the topic says, life isn't fair. People in general will do whatever they need to achieve their goal (in this case med school). So unfortunately, I doubt that anybody would let the opinions of a few people on a message board get in the way of their ambitions.[/quote'] I have absolutely no problem with people challenging their grade if there's a valid reason. Cudos to those people who recognize a legitimate error and rectify it. But that is not the situation with the OP. First, he/she says they'll fight for participation marks, then they say they'll force a remarking of an assignment or two, I.e. The OP has no valid reason; he/she is just dissatisfied with the grade which he/she probably deserves, and is thinking that complaining for no reason can help. Fighting a grade in this sort of way probably won't get you anywhere. I, as a TA, do not respect that sort of approach and would not be open to adjusting the grade. I doubt most profs would either. But, as the poster above has said, do what you think is best. You've heard viewpoints from a bunch of people here, which although cannot tell you what to do, they can help you decide for yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
osteon Posted December 28, 2011 Report Share Posted December 28, 2011 Also, I just did some simple math. For one B+ to bring your cGPA (assuming you were referring to cGPA) from a 3.9 to a 3.85, you'd have to be in first year. No way a B+ could have that big of an influence if you were in your later years. Therefore, relax. You won't be applying for a few years, and you're off to a great start with a 3.85. Not to mention those grades will probably be dropped depending on what school you apply to (including Ottawa). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vvelieva Posted December 28, 2011 Report Share Posted December 28, 2011 I don't see anything wrong with defending yourself to a professor. If you've done your work and can prove that you deserve your mark to be higher - go a defend yourself. Nothing wrong with getting what you deserve. Most of the time you are just a number to profs, so go and show that you care. Unless you bring their attention to this, nobody will care. Plus if it doesn't work out the way your hope, there's nothing wrong with trying. Don't beg, but simply show them the work you've done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david_66 Posted December 29, 2011 Report Share Posted December 29, 2011 Cheating the system won't get you anywhere. You should probably move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apache Posted December 29, 2011 Report Share Posted December 29, 2011 indeed! lol Cheating the system won't get you anywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaronjw Posted December 29, 2011 Report Share Posted December 29, 2011 Cheating the system won't get you anywhere. You should probably move on. Being a punk kid who currently has more pimples than brain or sperm cells won't get you anywhere either and you should probably move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david_66 Posted December 29, 2011 Report Share Posted December 29, 2011 I'm giving some solid advice. Instead of attacking me personally why don't you address what my point was? Or you thought my point was good and had no option but to attack me personally? The kid has serious issues. He wants to cheat the system. How is it fair to all the other students who worked harder than him? Did he actually deserve a higher grade? I doubt it. He should just suck it up and accept reality. He is not talented, maybe talented elsewhere, but not talented to get into medicine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaronjw Posted December 29, 2011 Report Share Posted December 29, 2011 I'm giving some solid advice. Instead of attacking me personally why don't you address what my point was? Or you thought my point was good and had no option but to attack me personally? The kid has serious issues. He wants to cheat the system. How is it fair to all the other students who worked harder than him? Did he actually deserve a higher grade? I doubt it. He should just suck it up and accept reality. He is not talented, maybe talented elsewhere, but not talented to get into medicine. You're logic is flawed. I just didnt feel like an argument with an idiot. Idiots typically win due to dragging us non-idiots down to their level and besting us with experience so my default position in dealing with idiots like you is to make fun of, and insult you as much as possible. At least you didnt deny being a pimply faced punk with more with lower level of brain and sperm cells than pimples Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david_66 Posted December 30, 2011 Report Share Posted December 30, 2011 You're logic is flawed. I just didnt feel like an argument with an idiot. Idiots typically win due to dragging us non-idiots down to their level and besting us with experience so my default position in dealing with idiots like you is to make fun of, and insult you as much as possible. At least you didnt deny being a pimply faced punk with more with lower level of brain and sperm cells than pimples I feel so sad for you man... Relax, chill, get a life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayward son Posted December 30, 2011 Report Share Posted December 30, 2011 At least you didn't respond being anal-ed by a black monkey. :D hahaha GPA reality check thread 3 minutes earlier: I can imagine you dropping the soap and what happens to you by a black guy afterwards. Disgusted. I hope these comments get this poster banned immediately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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