medhopefuls2016 Posted June 6, 2012 Report Share Posted June 6, 2012 Hi Guys, What in your opinion are considered residencies with the weakest "demand market?" I would love to be matched into rad/onc, but from what I heard, rad/onc (unlike in the States) is one that is basically saturated in Canada. Recently, there has even been a cut to residency positions implemented by CARO because many residents can't find a position afterwards. I have even heard (heard.....so I am taking it with a grain of salt) that one PGY5 resident in rad/onc even switched out because of the scarse job market. I know picking a residency is supposed to be about what you love (in my case, rad/onc), but sometimes the sad reality is that the real world has no demand for incoming specialists of this kind. So again, for Canada specifically, what are the residencies with the weakest "demand market?" What are the residencies that, after completion, would be hard to find a position afterwards? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Med0123 Posted June 6, 2012 Report Share Posted June 6, 2012 http://www.royalcollege.ca/public/advocacy/policy/hrh/examining_specialist_physician_employment 2nd paragraph : The genesis of the project dates back to a mini-study undertaken by the Royal College that ran from July to November 2010, in preparation for the 2010 Royal College-National Specialty Societies’ (NSS) Human Resources for Health (HRH) Conference. Feedback from on-line surveys and key-informant interviews painted a disturbing picture. Specialists in neurosurgery, cardiac surgery, plastic surgery, public health and preventive medicine (previously community medicine), otolaryngology, nephrology and radiation oncology were experiencing difficulties in finding employment in Canada. Since then, additional specialties have been added to the list: cardiology, gastroenterology, palliative medicine, urology, orthopedic surgery and thoracic surgery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NLengr Posted June 7, 2012 Report Share Posted June 7, 2012 The degree of difficultly finding a position also depends on your flexibility for some of the specialties. If you only wanna work in Toronto, then it's gonna be much harder than someone who is willing to work anywhere in the country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Med0123 Posted June 7, 2012 Report Share Posted June 7, 2012 specialties listed above reflect a lack of positions in CANADA, not only in GTA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Real Beef Posted June 7, 2012 Report Share Posted June 7, 2012 Great topic. I recently spent some time with some friends at their cottage. One of them is an orthopedic surgeon. We were celebrating my admittance to med school and his wife thought some reflection on his part would be helpful for me. She asked "If he were to do it all again would he go into medicine and become an orthopedic surgeon?". He thought for a bit and then said that he would go into medicine, but would probably go into a specialty that wasnt reliant on government resources (OR time specifically) so that he could hang up a sign anywhere and open up a practice (i.e. family, peds, etc.). Of course when it comes down to it all positions are reliant on government monies but I think he meant OR time, OR nurses and so on. So it was interesting. Its hard not to go after your dream specialty. Personally I wish to be an Emerg doctor and if the job market was not favorable then I would be hard pressed to not follow that dream desipte market warning signs to the contrary. Good luck on finding your direction. Beef Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtomSmasherXVIII Posted June 7, 2012 Report Share Posted June 7, 2012 Allow me to explain the situation with an excellent analogy. You're driving a car on a dirt path. Four years from now, you will have to make a choice. You can turn left, on to a nearby road. You can turn right, towards the United States border, onwards towards prosperity. Or you can keep going straight and drive off a cliff, in which case you will be in primary care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aryastark Posted June 7, 2012 Report Share Posted June 7, 2012 This is a really depressing trend, especially for those of us who have their hearts set on certain specialities. I hope this turns around soon! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Med0123 Posted June 7, 2012 Report Share Posted June 7, 2012 Great topic. I recently spent some time with some friends at their cottage. One of them is an orthopedic surgeon. We were celebrating my admittance to med school and his wife thought some reflection on his part would be helpful for me. She asked "If he were to do it all again would he go into medicine and become an orthopedic surgeon?". He thought for a bit and then said that he would go into medicine, but would probably go into a specialty that wasnt reliant on government resources (OR time specifically) so that he could hang up a sign anywhere and open up a practice (i.e. family, peds, etc.). Of course when it comes down to it all positions are reliant on government monies but I think he meant OR time, OR nurses and so on. So it was interesting. Its hard not to go after your dream specialty. Personally I wish to be an Emerg doctor and if the job market was not favorable then I would be hard pressed to not follow that dream desipte market warning signs to the contrary. Good luck on finding your direction. Beef If he were to do it all again NOW in 2012 he probably would have chosen a medical field, that's what you meant? Because I absolutely don't see why he would express regrets toward being in ortho if this was his dream specialty and if he has his 1 and a half day of OR time a week Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omz222 Posted June 7, 2012 Report Share Posted June 7, 2012 How's diagnostic radiology in Canada? Or medical oncology / hem-onc? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Med0123 Posted June 7, 2012 Report Share Posted June 7, 2012 I can't speak for the whole Canada, but radio seems still good for now (increasingly difficult in metropolitans areas though) and I heard medical oncology is becoming saturated (but there will be more cancers heh?). These are my own impressions of the phenomenon based on talks with some of my previous preceptors and I do not own any tangible data to support this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
medhopefuls2016 Posted June 7, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 7, 2012 I can't speak for the whole Canada, but radio seems still good for now (increasingly difficult in metropolitans areas though) and I heard medical oncology is becoming saturated (but there will be more cancers heh?). These are my own impressions of the phenomenon based on talks with some of my previous preceptors and I do not own any tangible data to support this. Same... like what med01234 was saying, from what I understand diag rad [(besides radon, my second top choice ] is still good for now based on info i gathered from a PGY1 friend of mine currently at UBC. i can't comment on the other two though. I think that it is generally difficult to find a position in metro areas right after PGY5 regardless of what specialty you pick (unless it happens to be either fam med or peds) because of job saturation. this makes fellowships doubly as important. interestingly though, even with the aging boomers there is no sign that radonc is going to become popular again (it's one of those ultra-competitive ROAD [read, radio or radonc, ophtalmology, derm, ENT, plastics] specialties in the States).... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdy Posted June 7, 2012 Report Share Posted June 7, 2012 It's worth noting, though, that over the next couple of decades, many of these specialties are going to be struggling to find people. Few people going into cardiac surgery, for instance, but since half of the cardiac surgeons over fifty, in the next twenty years they expect to have quite a shortage. It's saturated now, so people aren't going into it (around 50% of the cardiac surgery residency positions go unmatched) but half of the current surgeons stand to retire within the next two decades. A lot of doctors have put off retirement over the past few years due to markets devaluing their investments, but they can't practice forever, particularly surgeons. They have to retire eventually and they will do so in large numbers, which I think will greatly improve prospects in currently saturated fields. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtomSmasherXVIII Posted June 7, 2012 Report Share Posted June 7, 2012 It's worth noting, though, that over the next couple of decades, many of these specialties are going to be struggling to find people. Few people going into cardiac surgery, for instance, but since half of the cardiac surgeons over fifty, in the next twenty years they expect to have quite a shortage. It's saturated now, so people aren't going into it (around 50% of the cardiac surgery residency positions go unmatched) but half of the current surgeons stand to retire within the next two decades. A lot of doctors have put off retirement over the past few years due to markets devaluing their investments, but they can't practice forever, particularly surgeons. They have to retire eventually and they will do so in large numbers, which I think will greatly improve prospects in currently saturated fields. Even if that was true, for those 20 years you'd be getting paid peanuts doing fellowship after fellowship until you get a job in the boonies somewhere. The government healthcare system is what is causing the job shortage. Want to fix the situation? Vote with your feet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
medhopefuls2016 Posted June 7, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 7, 2012 Even if that was true, for those 20 years you'd be getting paid peanuts doing fellowship after fellowship until you get a job in the boonies somewhere. The government healthcare system is what is causing the job shortage. Want to fix the situation? Vote with your feet. Yeah I gotta agree with atmosmasher here. While it is almost definitely true that there will be positions opening up say 20 years from now (due to 1) old doctors retiring and 2) boomers aging), we can't spend time making 50K a year and doing fellowships after fellowships in the mean time hoping that a position might open. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soup Posted June 7, 2012 Report Share Posted June 7, 2012 So if there are so few jobs, are the majority of canadian grads heading to the states? is it relatively easy to get a job in the States or are there tons of visa hurdles etc.? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holiday1001 Posted June 7, 2012 Report Share Posted June 7, 2012 did you just call Ian Wong some guy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markov79 Posted June 7, 2012 Report Share Posted June 7, 2012 Soup, yes there is a huge VISA issue. I was admitted to Cornell and UToronto this year, and the major reason I didn't end up going South of the border was because of Visa. A guy on SDN (UBC med then radiology res in the States summarizes it up very nicely. did you just call Ian Wong 'some guy'? blas·phe·my [blas-fuh-mee] Show IPA noun, plural blas·phe·mies. 1.impious utterance or action concerning God or sacred things. 2.Judaism . a.an act of cursing or reviling God. b.pronunciation of the Tetragrammaton (YHVH) in the original, now forbidden manner instead of using a substitute pronunciation such as Adonai. 3.Theology . the crime of assuming to oneself the rights or qualities of God. 4.irreverent behavior toward anything held sacred, priceless, etc.: He uttered blasphemies against life itself. edit: i'd be remiss if i didn't use vr skill here and say that i recognize that it's not absolutely certain whom mh2016 was referring to. edit again: WOWWWWWWWW i take my edit back, having seen the reply. now i'm just angry. kidding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holiday1001 Posted June 7, 2012 Report Share Posted June 7, 2012 and he comes to his senses Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
medhopefuls2016 Posted June 7, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 7, 2012 See my edit Ok this is going off topic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holiday1001 Posted June 7, 2012 Report Share Posted June 7, 2012 don't matter, we have a quote of the original =) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rext Posted June 7, 2012 Report Share Posted June 7, 2012 Argh, I've been so stressed lately thinking about which specialty I might want to pursue (in addition to all the admin stuff, police check, immunization, housing, etc - holy crap there's a lot). Does anyone know when the detailed Royal College report is scheduled to be released?? Also, any advice for a new med student about which specialties to set up electives for ASAP (i.e. can get the most out of with minimal clinical knowledge)? I ask this because at Mac we get the chance to set up "horizontal electives" (think observerships but with more action) from the get go and being a 3-year program, I want to know sooner rather than later if I fall in love with a ROAD specialty or some ridiculously-competitive thing like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inspiring-curmudgeon Posted June 7, 2012 Report Share Posted June 7, 2012 Argh, I've been so stressed lately thinking about which specialty I might want to pursue (in addition to all the admin stuff, police check, immunization, housing, etc - holy crap there's a lot). Does anyone know when the detailed Royal College report is scheduled to be released?? Also, any advice for a new med student about which specialties to set up electives for ASAP (i.e. can get the most out of with minimal clinical knowledge)? I ask this because at Mac we get the chance to set up "horizontal electives" (think observerships but with more action) from the get go and being a 3-year program, I want to know sooner rather than later if I fall in love with a ROAD specialty or some ridiculously-competitive thing like that. Do horizontals in every one of the ROAD specialties if you can. Better to rule them out early, otherwise it'll make for a very poor application when you find out you want to do one of those midway through clerkship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holiday1001 Posted June 7, 2012 Report Share Posted June 7, 2012 1. Getting into medical school is the easy part. Getting into a residency is the hard part. hmm don't know if you can simplify it down that much to this statement Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Real Beef Posted June 7, 2012 Report Share Posted June 7, 2012 Allow me to explain the situation with an excellent analogy. You're driving a car on a dirt path. Four years from now, you will have to make a choice. You can turn left, on to a nearby road. You can turn right, towards the United States border, onwards towards prosperity. Or you can keep going straight and drive off a cliff, in which case you will be in primary care. ... and what green pasture are you gunning for? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inspiring-curmudgeon Posted June 7, 2012 Report Share Posted June 7, 2012 hmm don't know if you can simplify it down that much to this statement Getting into a competitive residency is definitely harder than getting into medical school. Most of the terrible people have been weeded out, and you're now competing against people who have been preparing themselves from very early on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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