And the 1st med student to get kicked out of U of T 2015 is...

[future_doc]

Looks like XIX is around the corner.

[Real Beef]

The Canadian Health Care system is also supposed to be based on the values we as Canadians feel are important and some of those include providing for the needy/vulnerable. Those include refugees ... if we renigged on our unique Canadian values then we would become .... well .... Americans

 

Stay Canadian!

 

Beef

[Dr.Henderson]

How compassionate

 

But purely on a money level a lot of the refugees do get granted permission to stay - we will end up paying for they consequences of those chronic conditions at that point (as now they are in the system just like everyone else) except they will now cost us a huge sum of money more. It isn't cost effective to ignore the problem. The difference though politically is it is the province that will be paying that cost not the federal government so the people changing the policy won't have to deal with the fallout.

 

Of all the things the government can be doing and arguing for this one just seems like a waste of time and energy.

 

The Canadian Health Care system is also supposed to be based on the values we as Canadians feel are important and some of those include providing for the needy/vulnerable. Those include refugees ... if we renigged on our unique Canadian values then we would become .... well .... Americans

 

Stay Canadian!

 

Beef

 

Well said, both of you

[future_doc]

Tell that to the federal government that seems to forget our values.

[Dr.Henderson]

Tell that to the federal government that seems to forget our values.

 

Indeed. I cannot think of a time in my life when I can recall so many people, and most professional groups, being so angry with any government (provincial or federal).

[1234]

I personally don't give a rat's ass about refugees. Canadians come first. They should be happy to even be here. Any refugee complaining about his lack of government handouts should be sent back to where they came from.

 

Would have been nice to see the bill only giving care to refugees to treat illnesses that indirectly affect Canadians, such as TB (that one poster mentioned), then kill everything else (e.g. cancer treatments).

 

Refugees aren't complaining. Intelligent Canadians are.

 

IFHP funding of $20 million per year across Canada is really going to hamper our ability to treat cancer, a multiple billion dollar funding allocation.... right...... *facepalm*

[Pantaloons]

Guys, don't bother.

Don't waste your time on a troll thread.

[future_doc]

Close it...

[AtomSmasherXVIII]

I'll concede that the bill cut something that is pretty far down the list of what should to be cut, but I appreciate the effort and the balls it takes to make them regardless.

 

P.S. I wasn't aware that trolling involved holding a different opinion from the mob, which is exactly what I've done in this topic, no more no less.

[Legion]

^^^ It's called trolling when EVERY SINGLE ONE OF YOUR OPINIONS is different than those of others. And this for the most part applies to you.

[PhoenixFlare500]

I personally don't give a rat's ass about refugees. Canadians come first. They should be happy to even be here. Any refugee complaining about his lack of government handouts should be sent back to where they came from.

 

Would have been nice to see the bill only giving care to refugees to treat illnesses that indirectly affect Canadians, such as TB (that one poster mentioned), then kill everything else (e.g. cancer treatments).

I do believe AtomSmasher's a troll. There is a reason he's gotten banned several times. Some of his views may be legitimate though (at least legitimately his). I know people that would think in exactly this same way, and I can see the logic in this.

 

Taxpayer money should logically go to taxpayers. However, if we're going to allow refugees to enter our country, I think we should provide them with sufficient health care to give them the same standard of health and living that we give our own citizens. If people don't like that, then they should start pushing for Canada to stop allowing refugees to stay here.

[apache]

my opinion is based on things that physician hasn't yet experienced, and will likely be less likely to experience because he did it in front of an audience, which in a way inoculates him. it's easy to advocate for patients when you haven't been deep enough down the rabbit hole to know about things which are actually severely against health cares interest, not lobbying for some biologic to be covered for a patient with a rare disease.

 

you're inability to comprehend what i mean to say speaks of the vagueness i feel comfortable in conveying my experiences, and i'm someone who holds clarity of expression in the highest regard, so infer from that what you will.

 

Huh? After working through what I think you're trying to say I'll conclude that we've obviously had different experiences with healthcare professionals. I have encountered numerous physicians who have fulfilled their roles as advocates for their patients and other vulnerable groups of people. Perhaps they have not received the same level of media attention or done it on a stage as large as a federal funding announcement like the two physicians referenced in this thread (in Toronto and Ottawa), but they have indeed stood up for what is right and made their voices heard.

 

We're all entitled to our own opinions though, which are of course largely based on our personal experiences.

[apache]

i did innumerable research on nutritional deficiencies characteristic in adhd, the underlying biochemistry and emergent properties which are implicated in the more macro level, heterogeneous biological aetiologies which different stimulant formations cause lasting changes in therapeutically… so when i saw someone who created a proprietary diet was sued by a particular pharma company for using the word cure (even though when you read patents for drugs they define say: "reduction" will furtherone be used to reflect a cmax difference of over 10 percent… however it could be 25, 40, 50, 60, 70 etc… they also do patents for a large number of drugs (for example defining conjugate as an essential or non essential amino acid bonded to the n terminus to dextroamphetamine when the only product aimed for market is an essential amino acid… but then claiming that the new invention, which encompasses all patented products, rather than what people would assume, the marketed one of the 15 mentioned offers a consistent plasma concentration which makes it superior to osmotic pump products like concerta, which are actually more difficult to abuse than the product, which, remember has an essential amino acid and the same unstable pharmacokinetics as concerta… the only problem is that the product is being pitched as adventitious because it's not abuseable… so tie with concerta, but deceptive language lie by using the umbrella term you define as essential or non essential amino acid conjugate, because the product on market doesn't have an advantage over concerta with regard to consistent blood plasma levels, and if your not a lawyer, who knows pharmacology, organic chem, and language, you intuitively think the reference was to the product… lisdextroamfetamine (vyvanse), when it refers to one of the other patented but not marketed drugs which also has a conjugate, however, it's a non essential, so less metabolic variance and more consistent steady release… which has big advantage because efficacy is based somewhat on cerebral blood flow, and top heavy pharmacokinetics make people crash and cause redosing as well as faster rates of habituation… but the drug they sell doesn't do that, only one comming out in 15 years does… this is complete bull****… but is on the fringes of legality… i only mention this because this is one paragraph in a 90 page patent… and the guy with the sound nutritional intervention was sued for using the word cure… see how nitpicky the law can be… and how theres more in front of preventative medicine than just the government… diets are well, hard to protect because big companies cant stop piracy, so to speak, whereas a pill is easily containable… and their financial dominance means they hire someone like me for 500 k a year who can be that nitpicky over on of 15 paragraphs in a page and keep it barely legal, and unfortunately, most people find money like that hard to turn down and don't have direct experience so strong enough to lead them to believe what theyre doing is hurting society in a way by preventing the development of preventative measures, the effects of which aren't immediate and easily ignorable if you have any cognitive dissonance.

 

edit: i'd ask that the leading preventative health care doctor in canada, wants to cut the health care budget and put it in preventative health… which apparent is a mistake because the government doesnt want to make enemies out of physicians in ontario, right… physician interest is a huge reason inefficient care in the service of physician financial interest happens, but pharma gets in too, so do companies in diagnostics (mri's are big money etc.) politicians… don't blindly generalize, there's good and bad everywhere.

 

http://blogs.vancouversun.com/2011/02/01/doctors-too-self-interested-to-put-patients-first-royal-college-of-physicianssurgeons-president/

p.s. this the current canadian medical association president, and awesome guy… would you take a pay cut to enhance preventative health? i would in a second, i see good psychiatrists who educate patients about nutrition, exercise, do social skills coaching work more hours than mcmedicine psychopharmacologists who just use 10 minute band aids and end up billing much more for easier work, less hours, at greater cost because of increased chronicity, and the fact that many people seeking mental health services have chronic medication payed for by the government.

 

Yup, lets not spend a couple of hundred fixing cavities. Lets let them develop into a dental absess and subsequent septicemia and spend tens of thousands. Sounds smart to me.

 

I can't believe that, despite all the evidence and years with medicine, the decision makers haven't realized that comprehensive preventative care will be the only path to cost control. It is truly embarrassing.

[apache]

schizophrenics take up around a 8 percent of beds, more than any other medical condition, period… that takes money away from cancer, yet camh receiving 10 million dollars was like an unprecedented donation… this is pretty messed when we know that stable homes and reduced stress can reduce one year rehospitalization or emergency room visits from around 80 to 12 percent i believe… but we still have no money for mental health, because it has no lobby with an interest in investing in halfway houses, high priced antipsychotics, almost always paid for by the government because people with schizophrenia are often on severe disability funding which includes meds, get administered no matter what, then you get to treat the subsequent diabetes and parkinsonism... and the only major lobby with financial power in psych is pharma… which is why you hear so much about restless leg syndrome and the wings of lunesta on tv… but not so much about community development which could potentially save the amounts of money that would effect cancer treatment

 

http://www.schizophrenia.com/szfacts.htm

 

i use to a lot of lobbying for schizophrenics in local area… yeah, not a sexy issue to sell, insomnias way sexier… have you seen those lunesta commercials, seriously

 

Refugees aren't complaining. Intelligent Canadians are.

 

IFHP funding of $20 million per year across Canada is really going to hamper our ability to treat cancer, a multiple billion dollar funding allocation.... right...... *facepalm*

[Clever]

Why do the mods allow a troll like you to always come back?

 

Well in this case, said troll keeps making new accounts. It's likely that he is also masking his IP address.

[apache]

it's ok, troll-beating is fun sport… cause trolling stops becoming fun when people stop responding with emotions and opinions, but just say well, i have a paragraph of facts in my head somewhere, you're wrong, case closed… it's like religion trolls, its fun because it's all conjecture and you can piss people off, imagine if the christian said, well god just parted the clouds… look up… wouldn't really be as fun to troll… you're not pissing anyone off, and there's not much you can say since well, discourse doesn't come down to rhetoric and emotion… anyone can argue and bs without facts, its called mental masturbation… but when you're restricted (apriori focus is does x happen, based on information y, not oh yeah, well you suck cus this… that was hot in junior high but doesn't fly in real life, when the debate is about topics that have answered based on normative, and societally accepted constructs like the budget for treatment x, rather than self-evident experiential bs, which is impossible to debate because the regression to the origin of the argument comes down to a post-modernist well i believe this, so there's no axiom you can disprove... especially when you deal with a bull****ter like me who uses post modernist mental masturbation all the time, but who is also a dumpster of info… it just stops being fun by argumentative constraints based on logic rules which are determined by the information presented… well then the dialogue doesn't continue long

 

see, that above was great bull**** if i ever saw it… i'll just shut him up, this is actually great discourse besides atomguy though, totally worth keeping up.

 

Well in this case, said troll keeps making new accounts. It's likely that he is also masking his IP address.

[Robin Hood]

Tell that to the federal government that seems to forget our values.

 

Politicians have no value except money.

[apache]

nah, they just want to get re-elected… pharma too, i read 5 patents yesterday, these guys have patents out describing the fallacies of their newest patented drug n how a different prodrug is superior etc. pointing out delterious flaws of cmax, early onset tmax and rebounds which lead to cycle of self dosing and abuse, lack of steady state pharmacokinetics due to the conjugate being essential AA, which in addition causes high standard devuations of kinetic profile… the benefit is all laid against plain dexedrine for innocuous side effect induced abuse… but no one gives out ir dex neways, n being less abuse prone to sr dex is a joke… problem is, clinicians aren't this discerning to notice that the tmax is way faster than adderall xr, similar area under curve for amphetamine, which is racemic mix of one fourth levo in aderall, which is fifteen times less dopaminergic, less euphoric so the release of d-enantiomer is less at max… so essentially adderall has far less abuse potential in people who dont crush up and snort their meds… but causes worse rebound, worse euphoria, rebound headaches, leading people to redose to avoid rebound…so makes addicts out of good people… but most clinicians don't know the depth and breadth to pick this apart and don't realize vyvanse is only a better, less abuseable choice in people who snort or inject, but in high oral admin abuse is worse, worse at inducing abuse in responsible people

 

don't worry though, they have another patented solution to the future problems of the new wonderdrug, non-essential amino acid bound AA's, so while they're hailing this as the bee's knees in on patent in comparison to dex, and careful not to mention side effect induced compensation compared to adderall… the new patent, relieves vyvanses major problems… by being non essesntial and having linear kinetics due to lack of biological variation playing as much or a role, so in 8-13 years you'll have ornithine-dexamfetamine to solve the problems of our solution right now… must be voodoo how they know the future… gott be ten years ahead on the patents i guess…

 

this seems like it wud pay sum fat cash though, maybe ppl should go into pharma copywrite law as plan b, lol

 

 

 

Politicians have no value except money.

[Robin Hood]

Get real. There's no reason to close this thread because Atom has a diametrically opposed opinion to most on this board.

 

I get what he's saying: refugees are not Canadians yet, and our money and care should go towards Canadians. It's a valid argument.

 

They are human beings like us, and most can't afford paying from their own pockets. They usually come here to stay. Canada says it's a good asylum for refugees, so Canada should care for them.

[Robin Hood]

Human beings are greedy.

 

nah, they just want to get re-elected… pharma too, i read 5 patents yesterday, these guys have patents out describing the fallacies of their newest patented drug n how a different prodrug is superior etc. pointing out delterious flaws of cmax, early onset tmax and rebounds which lead to cycle of self dosing and abuse, lack of steady state pharmacokinetics due to the conjugate being essential AA, which in addition causes high standard devuations of kinetic profile… the benefit is all laid against plain dexedrine for innocuous side effect induced abuse… but no one gives out ir dex neways, n being less abuse prone to sr dex is a joke… problem is, clinicians aren't this discerning to notice that the tmax is way faster than adderall xr, similar area under curve for amphetamine, which is racemic mix of one fourth levo in aderall, which is fifteen times less dopaminergic, less euphoric so the release of d-enantiomer is less at max… so essentially adderall has far less abuse potential in people who dont crush up and snort their meds… but causes worse rebound, worse euphoria, rebound headaches, leading people to redose to avoid rebound…so makes addicts out of good people… but most clinicians don't know the depth and breadth to pick this apart and don't realize vyvanse is only a better, less abuseable choice in people who snort or inject, but in high oral admin abuse is worse, worse at inducing abuse in responsible people

 

don't worry though, they have another patented solution to the future problems of the new wonderdrug, non-essential amino acid bound AA's, so while they're hailing this as the bee's knees in on patent in comparison to dex, and careful not to mention side effect induced compensation compared to adderall… the new patent, relieves vyvanses major problems… by being non essesntial and having linear kinetics due to lack of biological variation playing as much or a role, so in 8-13 years you'll have ornithine-dexamfetamine to solve the problems of our solution right now… must be voodoo how they know the future… gott be ten years ahead on the patents i guess…

 

this seems like it wud pay sum fat cash though, maybe ppl should go into pharma copywrite law as plan b, lol

[aaronjw]

They are human beings like us, and most can't afford paying from their own pockets. They usually come here to stay. Canada says it's a good asylum for refugees, so Canada should care for them.

 

You're hilarious. You think we should care for them but when the discussion turns to IMGs you have zero love for those.

[apache]

i'm not giving you my opinion, conjecture, i hope you never get to see the real world… there's so many subtle ways at doing things, it's very insidious and clandestine, but perennial, little practice audit here or there of your billing practices, few mental health concerns brought up anonymously… in interest of your health perhaps practice conditions with mandated unpleasant lithium… you're right, you have rights to say what you want, and then be shut up afterwards… physicians don't have much political clout if they stand against physician interests as a whole… i love self regulation… good unless u have a disparate opinion… ya, when you know the inside story of previous similar news headlines, maybe have even had similar experiences, or known some people who were told to shut up after speaking in parliament… just supposing of course, this is just conjecture… u know… u start to laugh at free speech and idealism… u want change, don't do med, work in lobbying or law or politics… physicians are there to give a little peep while the real policymakers do business

 

Originally Posted by Dr.Henderson

Further I'd be interested in seeing anyone try to yank a practicing physician's license for exercising their right to (very reasonable) free speech, especially when the CFPC (these were both family physicians) passed the following resolution:

 

I can only imagine the firestorm of anyone even attempting to go after either of these docs for taking a stand against this ill-advised, senseless change in policy.

[apache]

omg, i was going to point that out but thought it was overkill

 

You're hilarious. You think we should care for them but when the discussion turns to IMGs you have zero love for those.

[bnface]

omg, i was going to point that out but thought it was overkill

 

That's because for many people, despite what they will argue, personal ethics only prevail when they do not conflict with personal interests.

[Robin Hood]

+1

The refugee and IMG admission issues only have their subjects - foreigners - in common. Otherwise they're completely different.

 

Admission to residency is a competitive process, and the spots are very limited.

Having the government pay for refugees' healthcare will not hinder healthcare payment for Canadian citizens and PRs.

Plus, health is necessary to live, which is not the case for residency admission.

 

You're hilarious. You think we should care for them but when the discussion turns to IMGs you have zero love for those.