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The Average 'wage' of doctors 2012


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http://news.ontario.ca/mohltc/en/2012/05/a-real-wage-freeze-for-doctors-the-facts.html

 

I have no idea how I ended up on this random page but interesting none the less...we get lots of 'how much do doctors make' posts here and this is the most 'up to date' official government page I have seen (MAY 2012). This is for ontario:

 

The average Ontario doctor bills $385,000 annually (this for ALL doctors from FM to derm etc )which isnt a very accurate number? (could be skewed?)

 

But it also says :

 

The average family doctor in Ontario bills almost $150,000 more than those in the United States.

 

Ontario: $351,237

United States: $207,000

 

Which is interesting...I thought $200k was the average for FM docs.....

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thus why I put wage in ' wage' lol I meant it as how much they 'make' as in 'bill' (obviously after overhead and taxes theres a big cut)

 

And also, interesting to see that there have been the following cuts:

 

http://news.ontario.ca/mohltc/en/2012/05/ontario-freezing-doctor-pay-to-invest-in-more-community-care-for-families-and-seniors.html

 

notably for eye doctors:

 

New technology has reduced the time needed to perform cataract surgery from two hours to as little as 15 minutes. Fees paid to doctors for this procedure will be reduced from $441 to $397.75.

 

The time taken to perform eye injections for retinal diseases now takes five to 30 minutes, down from two hours a decade ago. The fee paid to doctors for this service will be reduced from $189 to $90 over four years.

 

maybe seeing a head down the road to reduced pay for optho

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Given that (1) family physicians form the largest group by far and (2) there are many specialists making considerably more than most GPs, it seems reasonable to assume that the distribution of billings is skewed toward higher gross billings. Hence it would be more appropriate to report median billings to illustrate what a "typical" physician might make (before expenses of course).

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I am skeptical of that US number.

 

For one, it doesn't state what billings those are. If those are Medicare/Medicaid billings (which would be the easiest numbers to get as they would be in states' budgets) then sure, I can see that, because it excludes a large portion of the physician's billings which are to private insurers, as well as cash patients (such as those who use HSAs.)

 

If it is billings to all sources, which I highly doubt, then I'd want to see their breakdown. IIRC, most Canadian sources exclude physicians who bill less than ~$60k annually, at least my province's numbers do. Those US numbers could include physicians who work only a few hours a week, whereas ours are based on full time equivalent.

 

Honestly, that number has absolutely no context and its source is uncited so verifying it becomes difficult. They could well be comparing apples to oranges here, and I believe they are.

 

FWIW, I have a lot of American friends. Those without insurance, whose costs I know (we talk about health care a lot, hah) pay around $100 for a doctors' visit. Basic well-baby check up. Those with insurance pay $30-$50 as a copay, then their insurance pays the rest of the fee based on the fee schedule for that insurance company. In my province's master agreement, a basic exam is billed $35, and our physician agreement is supposedly competitive with other provinces. I'd feel it safe to say that on a per patient basis, a family doctor in the US bills more. Either to Medicare/caid (which many doctors won't even take because it pays far less than private insurers) or to a private insurer or the patient themself. That is why I am skeptical of that uncited, unverifiable number stated on the linked page.

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Thanks for the info Birdy.

 

That actually makes a lot of sense. Come to think of it..... they (ontario government) is more likely to pick and choose and 'skew' the data to their favour so they can easily justify cuts to doctors.

 

And true, A-stark I think medium would have been more helpful.

 

I just wish they would cite a few sources/parameters (part time? full time? etc)

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It amazes me that the premeds on this board are so concerned physician salary and money in general. I'm sure it's a youth thing since I was fairly similar when I was younger and thankfully life has taught me there's way more important things in life than how much one makes. Sure, life is easier with money but it gets to a point where that's your sole focus for a job/career and you will suffer in happiness. Mark my words.

 

If you look back at the thread history since I've been here those that usually bring up physician salary are those on the outside looking in.

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Haha, sprinkles, that website you linked to is a propaganda machine.

 

I love how the author of the website chose to compare BILLINGS of doctors to GROSS INCOME of families. After overhead, the average gross income of doctors is probably around $200k. And let's not forget the higher tax rate on doctors. After taxes, it's closer to $120K vs. 30K... which is a 4 fold difference, much smaller than the 9 fold difference quoted in the article.

 

This also isn't taking into account that the average doctor works something like 50% more hours than the average person. Taking this, and the above, into account, the average doctor makes maybe only 3x more than the average person per hour.

 

And of course, let's not forget the $250K of debt, and 10 years spent in school that the "average Ontarian" does not have to deal with. And the fact that it's a hard job... unlike the average lazy unionized busyworker who gets paid to sit on his ass and push papers all day.

 

**** practicing in Ontario. Vote with your feet!

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And of course, let's not forget the $250K of debt, and 10 years spent in school that the "average Ontarian" does not have to deal with.

 

yah I had thought of that too. I always think its retarded when they comapre doctors pay to 'the average Canadian'.... yes but the 'average Canadian' doesnt always study really hard for 4 years of undergrad (with stress of getting A+ grades and balancing with ECs etc), to then study for/stress about MCAT, go through the stressful process of applying to medical school, GOING to actual medical school (with all of its own stress and FEES) graduating with a bunc of debt only to go into a residency (other than FM they are all on avergae about 5 years right?)

 

The amount of stress, hard work, debt and dedication it takes to become a doctor (ESPECIALLY in Canada) should allow doctors to have a higher pay. Even if I never get into medical school I will always believe that :P Cause if you are able to make it through it all you are not 'the average Canadian' so you deserve higher than the 'average' :P

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No one deserves anything. People get what they get :)

yah I had thought of that too. I always think its retarded when they comapre doctors pay to 'the average Canadian'.... yes but the 'average Canadian' doesnt always study really hard for 4 years of undergrad (with stress of getting A+ grades and balancing with ECs etc), to then study for/stress about MCAT, go through the stressful process of applying to medical school, GOING to actual medical school (with all of its own stress and FEES) graduating with a bunc of debt only to go into a residency (other than FM they are all on avergae about 5 years right?)

 

The amount of stress, hard work, debt and dedication it takes to become a doctor (ESPECIALLY in Canada) should allow doctors to have a higher pay. Even if I never get into medical school I will always believe that :P Cause if you are able to make it through it all you are not 'the average Canadian' so you deserve higher than the 'average' :P

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It's ok though. Somehow Ontario still has money to pay for full day kindergarten and 4 different school systems performing the same task. Plus the premier is following all the Drummond report suggestions too.....

 

Out of all the provinces, Ontario has gotta be the most poorly run.

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It's ok though. Somehow Ontario still has money to pay for full day kindergarten and 4 different school systems performing the same task. Plus the premier is following all the Drummond report suggestions too.....

 

Out of all the provinces, Ontario has gotta be the most poorly run.

 

And me who thought it was Quebec.

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Dude, there's something wrong with your thinking. Why are you posting that doctors should be paid less, on a medical internet forum?

 

I think he's talking about people's sense of entitlement in general, not necessarily related specifically to money.

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ok, i'll tell it like it is, I've done LSAT, MCAT, DAT. The DAT, imo is a joke, but only the academic section carving is hard. the LSAT and MCAT are very close in difficulty, if you disagree, feel free to wing a 170 on the LSAT for fun. You put the stress… on yourself, I had around 10 A+'s in 50 courses… I got like 5 b+s or so, but I pushed myself to take courses outside my comfort zone (existential psychology… try reading being and time, i still can't, and stupidly, im stuck with peopple who have strong background knowledge, all phil majors… first day i showed up was 15 percent quiz day as i trasfered from boring anatomy… so i got 2 days to learn some existentialism… first time at this stuff, my god, 2 days, with not instruction... other guy failed and dropped. You can take your pre-req's in spring/summer, and most pre-med extra-curics are padded and over-stated. but i wasn't having a panic attack, it's just a quiz, lol

 

I met a girl who blew my mind once, she understated her accomplishments quite a bit, didn't talk about self, despite being more accomplished than almost anyone id met here. They were too good to state in a sense, and I can resonate, what do I say about the multiple suicides I stopped, hearing about people burning flesh isn't palatable, but beats being a member of campus pre-med club… and I'm only mentioning a single occasion, forget the hundreds of occasions I could describe that are heavily graphic, many attempts, but not serious, and this is one of many people. what i mean, was that's bad, you don't wanna seem like you've seen too much...

 

My friend has been working tirelessly for 5 yrs for MAKE POVERTY HISTORY, it's almost all him, he's amazing, he works in fort mac to make 18 g a year to fund the yearly campaign, i think he finally got invited to a top 50 young leaders club by Obama… he used to sleep in his car, but he's changed Canadian's percentage GDP towards poverty, has been in, god knows, maybe 100-200 magazines. We even used to get together with another guy in Dentistry and he would learn about Bahai'ism… google him, he's still doing things (like on guy who did an ALS gala to get into dent I think did it once, never again) this guy... not once, on a monthly basis, still doesn't have his bachelors, and he's nowhere near dumb. The irony though is that he has so much promotions, media, event experience, if he wasn't so selfless he could get 150 g to start without finishing school, the size of the events hes more or less done by himself are just extraordinary.

 

Very few people do cool thing's you claim are mind boggling, I have a friend who founded a group that has hundreds of volunteers behind him, Gates has invited him to strategize how to max fundraising.

 

I did a lot of stuff I don't feel helped the community early on, but I founded scholarship for schizophrenics, now I teach refugee youth in summer, much happier… why not do something you enjoy? I'm a huge soccer guy, you can ref, coach younger people, play if you're varsity level or if you're just competitive adult league... or volunteer if your uni is doing a Euro presentation… serious, lol. i realized lots of volunteering sucked cause I didn't like half, so… what should I expect.

 

being part of after school safety patrol… a think many ppl do for dates, or to put crap on cv…. lots of future librarians and teachers do that too, not a biggie. ss well, don't kill yourself, you can not volunteer when you're busy, I didn't till second year… or take a 5 year undergrad, or work a year in between, far less stress, and in later, you get paid.

 

year off… how terrible, i could take a year off after undergrad, get a job in psychometrics, learning advanced stats, interpretation, making 33 an hour, i was offered numerous gov jobs i turned down paying over 50 g a year… my fault, didn't know you could transfer departments quick… but even so, in 4th yr i applied for study abroad… god full scholarship to study in amsterdam… man, what would i do if i didn't get into med... pay 800 for tuition housing and class in Amsterdam… apply next year to mac with their new VR heavy scoring, I got a 13, great shot, plus almost free time Amsterdam… and believe me, no offense to some of the Canadian girls, but Dutch girls are soooo fun (almost all you canadian girls are great too, haha)

 

i also did an nserc, it was easy (i mean relaxing enjoyable, and not overwork at all. i should have got a paper from it, but i had a choice to work less… paper turned out landmark… my fault, i didn't think it would…. honestly, the nserc was really easy, i got challenging work, nice hours, got to study for mcat… which isn't bad, i'm even still friends with the one lab mate there, and some from my individual studies one.

 

i know that's not fair to discuss the awful mcat because i don't get lower than 12 or s in verbal or writing, but, on the other hand, most people don't lower their gpa of interest because when i first ventured into those very obscure classes i was disadvantaged…

 

you can avoid this… try and scrape 11 and be fine… you'll have a better gpa too! see you can't complain about both, if you never take any arts for fear of a poor gpa, vr and ws are harder, if you take arts, and some hits, vr and ws will be very easy, seriously… and bs and ps are learnable in short periods, i knew nothing and still winged 10's on them…

 

i've always wanted to write the mcat again, now that i've learned everything… well not a month b4 i know i'd get 13-15, s or t… but prob improve my bio score from an 11-14, and phys to 10-12 maybe… 34 s min… im thinking more 37S though, i used to know no bio period and got 10, now I have a great background, I'm sure and 12… personally i think higher, from nothing to advanced of chem, bio, 6 advanced bio classes, advanced inorganic, god knows how much physiology, micro, imin… this is all post 10… so well, it's not that bad... is feasible… take ur time n life's easier ;)

 

residency pays 54-75 g (diff provinces are diff, renin knows it here, correct me if it's changed)… this isn't chump change, your gov loans do not go to repayment, you can apply for loan relief… as well as disability payment relief, which means 10 years after school, payments are done, period.

 

Personally, i got 30 g in tax free scholarships a year, got to go on to vacations a yr, never worried about eating a meal… or going home to eat for that matter, my student group was hard and stressful, but my hospital jobs were casual, meaning I chose the hours… personally I don't think getting into med school makes you better or deserving of a better salary.

 

many docs need pay cuts, some need raises...

 

 

Dude, there's something wrong with your thinking. Why are you posting that doctors should be paid less, on a medical internet forum?
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ok, i'll tell it like it is, I've done LSAT, MCAT, DAT. The DAT, imo is a joke, but only the academic section carving is hard. the LSAT and MCAT are very close in difficulty, if you disagree, feel free to wing a 170 on the LSAT for fun. You put the stress… on yourself, I had around 10 A+'s in 50 courses… I got like 5 b+s or so, but I pushed myself to take courses outside my comfort zone (existential psychology… try reading being and time, i still can't, and stupidly, im stuck with peopple who have strong background knowledge, all phil majors… first day i showed up was 15 percent quiz day as i trasfered from boring anatomy… so i got 2 days to learn some existentialism… first time at this stuff, my god, 2 days, with not instruction... other guy failed and dropped. You can take your pre-req's in spring/summer, and most pre-med extra-curics are padded and over-stated. but i wasn't having a panic attack, it's just a quiz, lol

 

I met a girl who blew my mind once, she understated her accomplishments quite a bit, didn't talk about self, despite being more accomplished than almost anyone id met here. They were too good to state in a sense, and I can resonate, what do I say about the multiple suicides I stopped, hearing about people burning flesh isn't palatable, but beats being a member of campus pre-med club… and I'm only mentioning a single occasion, forget the hundreds of occasions I could describe that are heavily graphic, many attempts, but not serious, and this is one of many people. what i mean, was that's bad, you don't wanna seem like you've seen too much...

 

My friend has been working tirelessly for 5 yrs for MAKE POVERTY HISTORY, it's almost all him, he's amazing, he works in fort mac to make 18 g a year to fund the yearly campaign, i think he finally got invited to a top 50 young leaders club by Obama… he used to sleep in his car, but he's changed Canadian's percentage GDP towards poverty, has been in, god knows, maybe 100-200 magazines. We even used to get together with another guy in Dentistry and he would learn about Bahai'ism… google him, he's still doing things (like on guy who did an ALS gala to get into dent I think did it once, never again) this guy... not once, on a monthly basis, still doesn't have his bachelors, and he's nowhere near dumb. The irony though is that he has so much promotions, media, event experience, if he wasn't so selfless he could get 150 g to start without finishing school, the size of the events hes more or less done by himself are just extraordinary.

 

Very few people do cool thing's you claim are mind boggling, I have a friend who founded a group that has hundreds of volunteers behind him, Gates has invited him to strategize how to max fundraising.

 

I did a lot of stuff I don't feel helped the community early on, but I founded scholarship for schizophrenics, now I teach refugee youth in summer, much happier… why not do something you enjoy? I'm a huge soccer guy, you can ref, coach younger people, play if you're varsity level or if you're just competitive adult league... or volunteer if your uni is doing a Euro presentation… serious, lol. i realized lots of volunteering sucked cause I didn't like half, so… what should I expect.

 

being part of after school safety patrol… a think many ppl do for dates, or to put crap on cv…. lots of future librarians and teachers do that too, not a biggie. ss well, don't kill yourself, you can not volunteer when you're busy, I didn't till second year… or take a 5 year undergrad, or work a year in between, far less stress, and in later, you get paid.

 

year off… how terrible, i could take a year off after undergrad, get a job in psychometrics, learning advanced stats, interpretation, making 33 an hour, i was offered numerous gov jobs i turned down paying over 50 g a year… my fault, didn't know you could transfer departments quick… but even so, in 4th yr i applied for study abroad… god full scholarship to study in amsterdam… man, what would i do if i didn't get into med... pay 800 for tuition housing and class in Amsterdam… apply next year to mac with their new VR heavy scoring, I got a 13, great shot, plus almost free time Amsterdam… and believe me, no offense to some of the Canadian girls, but Dutch girls are soooo fun (almost all you canadian girls are great too, haha)

 

i also did an nserc, it was easy (i mean relaxing enjoyable, and not overwork at all. i should have got a paper from it, but i had a choice to work less… paper turned out landmark… my fault, i didn't think it would…. honestly, the nserc was really easy, i got challenging work, nice hours, got to study for mcat… which isn't bad, i'm even still friends with the one lab mate there, and some from my individual studies one.

 

i know that's not fair to discuss the awful mcat because i don't get lower than 12 or s in verbal or writing, but, on the other hand, most people don't lower their gpa of interest because when i first ventured into those very obscure classes i was disadvantaged…

 

you can avoid this… try and scrape 11 and be fine… you'll have a better gpa too! see you can't complain about both, if you never take any arts for fear of a poor gpa, vr and ws are harder, if you take arts, and some hits, vr and ws will be very easy, seriously… and bs and ps are learnable in short periods, i knew nothing and still winged 10's on them…

 

i've always wanted to write the mcat again, now that i've learned everything… well not a month b4 i know i'd get 13-15, s or t… but prob improve my bio score from an 11-14, and phys to 10-12 maybe… 34 s min… im thinking more 37S though, i used to know no bio period and got 10, now I have a great background, I'm sure and 12… personally i think higher, from nothing to advanced of chem, bio, 6 advanced bio classes, advanced inorganic, god knows how much physiology, micro, imin… this is all post 10… so well, it's not that bad... is feasible… take ur time n life's easier ;)

 

residency pays 54-75 g (diff provinces are diff, renin knows it here, correct me if it's changed)… this isn't chump change, your gov loans do not go to repayment, you can apply for loan relief… as well as disability payment relief, which means 10 years after school, payments are done, period.

 

Personally, i got 30 g in tax free scholarships a year, got to go on to vacations a yr, never worried about eating a meal… or going home to eat for that matter, my student group was hard and stressful, but my hospital jobs were casual, meaning I chose the hours… personally [B]I don't think getting into med school makes you better or deserving of a better salary.

 

many docs need pay cuts, some need raises...

[/b]

 

Muse, I'm sure you are very smart and all (probably smarter than most of us) but WHY do you high-jack almost every single thread just to talk about yourself? Apart from the last two sentences, I honestly don't see how what you posted had anything to do with why or why not doctors deserve high wages.

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What the hell was that? There is great value in being short and to the point. Seriously, stick to something close to the topic. We don't need a long rambling story about you every time you comment. It adds nothing to the conversation about physician pay.

 

And you are incorrect, government loans (for almost all provinces) do go into repayment during residency.

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[/b]

 

Muse, I'm sure you are very smart and all (probably smarter than most of us) but WHY do you high-jack almost every single thread just to talk about yourself? Apart from the last two sentences, I honestly don't see how what you posted had anything to do with why or why not doctors deserve high wages.

 

You don't have sufficient evidence to make such generalization.

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