Why Don't Ontario Medical Schools Have Proviince Restrictions

[DoctorS]

Is it just me or is it annoying that every province other than Ontario makes it easier for applicants from that province to get into med school. For example, at Dalhousie, Maritime students require a minimum GPA of 3.3 and an MCAT score of 24 whereas non-maritime students require a minimum GPA of 3.7 and an MCAT score of 30 ( http://admissions.medicine.dal.ca/academic_requirements.htm ). Many other med schools, such as Laval, also do it for Quebec students. The only Ontario schools that I can think of that do this are NOSM, but you have to be from Thunder Bay, not just Ontario, and I think Ottawa and Western do it as well, with the same conditions as NOSM; you have to be from that region.

 

Isn't it unfair that people from the GTA don't have any perks for applying to med schools in their area but almost all the students in other provinces do?

[GREGtotheHOUSE]

Is it just me or is it annoying that every province other than Ontario makes it easier for applicants from that province to get into med school. For example, at Dalhousie, Maritime students require a minimum GPA of 3.3 and an MCAT score of 24 whereas non-maritime students require a minimum GPA of 3.7 and an MCAT score of 30 ( http://admissions.medicine.dal.ca/academic_requirements.htm ). Many other med schools, such as Laval, also do it for Quebec students. The only Ontario schools that I can think of that do this are NOSM, but you have to be from Thunder Bay, not just Ontario, and I think Ottawa and Western do it as well, with the same conditions as NOSM; you have to be from that region.

 

Isn't it unfair that people from the GTA don't have any perks for applying to med schools in their area but almost all the students in other provinces do?

 

Yah man its pretty unfair, but in the words of 50 Cent, "hate da playa, not da game".

[Alai]

No, because Ontario has more medical schools per province than all others.

 

/thread

[Birdy]

It's because it isn't about making it fair, it's about getting med students from underserved areas because they are more likely to return to those areas to practice as physicians.

 

Dal and MUN both have agreements with my province (PEI) for ten seats total. Those are the seats that I have the best shot at, as only about fifty people apply for them per year.

 

PEI is woefully short of physicians, and the ones we do have from away frequently leave as soon as they've been here long enough to get the rural practice bonus. This regularly leaves thousands of patients in the lurch. We have had ERs and walk-in clinics close because they can't get physicians, even locums. I want to practice here, this is my home. Those med schools seats exist because people *from* here are more likely to return here to practice - like my family doctor and her husband, both of whom went to Dal.

 

MUN and NOSM, for instance, directly state that their goal is to prepare med students for rural (and northern, in the case of NOSM) practice, so they take people from those areas, because those people are more aware of the unique attributes of living in underserved areas.

 

The GTA doesn't seem to be hurting for doctors. There's no point in being geographically protective of their med school seats.

[A-Stark]

Is it just me or is it annoying that every province other than Ontario makes it easier for applicants from that province to get into med school. For example, at Dalhousie, Maritime students require a minimum GPA of 3.3 and an MCAT score of 24 whereas non-maritime students require a minimum GPA of 3.7 and an MCAT score of 30 ( http://admissions.medicine.dal.ca/academic_requirements.htm ). Many other med schools, such as Laval, also do it for Quebec students. The only Ontario schools that I can think of that do this are NOSM, but you have to be from Thunder Bay, not just Ontario, and I think Ottawa and Western do it as well, with the same conditions as NOSM; you have to be from that region.

 

Very few (if any) students get into Dal with a GPA of 3.3 or MCAT of 24. The averages for each class tend to be by around 3.8 and 30, respectively.

 

Isn't it unfair that people from the GTA don't have any perks for applying to med schools in their area but almost all the students in other provinces do?

 

McMaster allocates ~90% of interview spaces to Ontario applicants. And I would imagine that most UofT students are from Ontario regardless of their policy (same with Queen's).

[medschoolpath]

It's because it isn't about making it fair, it's about getting med students from underserved areas because they are more likely to return to those areas to practice as physicians.

 

Dal and MUN both have agreements with my province (PEI) for ten seats total. Those are the seats that I have the best shot at, as only about fifty people apply for them per year.

 

PEI is woefully short of physicians, and the ones we do have from away frequently leave as soon as they've been here long enough to get the rural practice bonus. This regularly leaves thousands of patients in the lurch. We have had ERs and walk-in clinics close because they can't get physicians, even locums. I want to practice here, this is my home. Those med schools seats exist because people *from* here are more likely to return here to practice - like my family doctor and her husband, both of whom went to Dal.

 

MUN and NOSM, for instance, directly state that their goal is to prepare med students for rural (and northern, in the case of NOSM) practice, so they take people from those areas, because those people are more aware of the unique attributes of living in underserved areas.

 

The GTA doesn't seem to be hurting for doctors. There's no point in being geographically protective of their med school seats.

 

Well said.

Also, considering the huge amounts of Ontario students who apply every year, how beneficial would province restrictions in Ontario even be?

[thebouque]

No, because Ontario has more medical schools per province than all others.

 

/thread

 

Trut but the population of Ontario is a lot more important.

[DoctorS]

Yah man its pretty unfair, but in the words of 50 Cent, "hate da playa, not da game".

 

Haha yeah

 

No, because Ontario has more medical schools per province than all others.

 

 

/thread

 

 

They also have much more applicants...

 

It's because it isn't about making it fair, it's about getting med students from underserved areas because they are more likely to return to those areas to practice as physicians.

 

Dal and MUN both have agreements with my province (PEI) for ten seats total. Those are the seats that I have the best shot at, as only about fifty people apply for them per year.

 

PEI is woefully short of physicians, and the ones we do have from away frequently leave as soon as they've been here long enough to get the rural practice bonus. This regularly leaves thousands of patients in the lurch. We have had ERs and walk-in clinics close because they can't get physicians, even locums. I want to practice here, this is my home. Those med schools seats exist because people *from* here are more likely to return here to practice - like my family doctor and her husband, both of whom went to Dal.

 

MUN and NOSM, for instance, directly state that their goal is to prepare med students for rural (and northern, in the case of NOSM) practice, so they take people from those areas, because those people are more aware of the unique attributes of living in underserved areas.

 

The GTA doesn't seem to be hurting for doctors. There's no point in being geographically protective of their med school seats.

 

But if the Maritime provinces are short on doctors, wouldn't it also be fine for them to have doctors from Ontario as well? I mean, I'm sure that some Ontario med hopefuls who didn't get into any med schools would be more than happy to go to a maritime med school and practice there.

[Alai]

You have to realise, like Birdy said, med schools don't exist for the purpose of GETTING YOU IN MEDICAL SCHOOL. They exist as factories for fulfilling the Canada's need for more doctors. Rural Canada is bleeding doctors, Toronto isn't.

[Savac]

But if the Maritime provinces are short on doctors, wouldn't it also be fine for them to have doctors from Ontario as well? I mean, I'm sure that some Ontario med hopefuls who didn't get into any med schools would be more than happy to go to a maritime med school and practice there.

 

I don't doubt that people would say that they're willing to stay in the maritimes, but many applicants will say just about anything in order to get into medical school

[DoctorS]

You have to realise, like Birdy said, med schools don't exist for the purpose of GETTING YOU IN MEDICAL SCHOOL. They exist as factories for fulfilling the Canada's need for more doctors. Rural Canada is bleeding doctors, Toronto isn't.

 

However, I'm sure that applicants would be more than happy to study and work in Rural Canada. Likewise, they can get people to sign a contract that states if they want the same privileges as maritime applicants, they have to work in said rural province for a certain amount of time after graduating.

[Birdy]

Haha yeah

 

 

 

 

They also have much more applicants...

 

 

 

But if the Maritime provinces are short on doctors, wouldn't it also be fine for them to have doctors from Ontario as well? I mean, I'm sure that some Ontario med hopefuls who didn't get into any med schools would be more than happy to go to a maritime med school and practice there.

 

 

But that hasn't been the case, hence the policies. I'd imagine the schools have more statistic on dispersement of their graduates than I do, but most of them are quite open about the fact that these restrictions/advantages (depends on your perspective, I guess) are to bolster the number of physicians in their areas.

 

Think about it - how would a school know someone stating that they want to practice somewhere they have never lived actually means that? Plenty of applicants would just say that they want to practice in underserved areas to get in. There's no way to verify intent, and there's no way to even know if you'd like living there if you haven't. But if they look at people who have actually lived in those areas, who have connections there and family there, then if I were on an adcom, that would tell me the person is more likely (not necessarily going to, but more likely) to go back there to practice.

[Outlaw]

Ontario students are getting preferential treatment from NOSM, Western, Mac and Ottawa. It's not Ontario that you're complaining about, it's the lack of advantages for applicants from the GTA. For the remaining schools, I don't see how giving them an advantage in the application process would make a difference because most of the people applying are from the GTA. If other schools took off their provincial restrictions, there would be a large number of people applying from Ontario and taking those spots. How many of them would stay in Saskatchewan, Manitoba or the Maritimes upon graduation? Not many.

 

If you think it's so unfair, move somewhere else. Nobody is keeping you hostage in the GTA.

[Birdy]

However, I'm sure that applicants would be more than happy to study and work in Rural Canada. Likewise, they can get people to sign a contract that states if they want the same privileges as maritime applicants, they have to work in said rural province for a certain amount of time after graduating.

 

Yeah, then they just leave. Of my mother's last three family doctors, none of whom were from here, all left within five years of getting here.

 

My last one (from Scotland) left within two years, leaving 4,000 patients, more than half of whom are still waiting for another doctor (along with thousands of others who have been waiting several years.)

 

Continuity of care is important in family practice. ROS agreements do not improve it.

[Alai]

However, I'm sure that applicants would be more than happy to study and work in Rural Canada. Likewise, they can get people to sign a contract that states if they want the same privileges as maritime applicants, they have to work in said rural province for a certain amount of time after graduating.

 

Alright, great idea. Now, lets take a step back from this and consider some things:

 

a) it is WRONG to force doctors to go into a certain specialty. It endangers their freedom, and it actually endangers patients, because if a doctor is made to work somewhere they don't want to, they may be terrible at it, they may be unhappy working, there is so much wrong with making people sign such a contract at the time of their admission into medical school. What do they do if they want to leave afterwards? Another residency? More training? More time spent, higher cost, etc.

 

How are you so sure that "applicants would be more than happy to study and work in Rural Canada"? This actually goes against all precedents, evidence, and even intuition.

 

Even if I were to accept your assumptions here, and even your solution, it's so far-fetched that I think the current system just solves the problem much better. The happiness of Premeds isn't really as important as the lives of people who desperately need doctors but have to drive 3 hours to find the nearest one.

[A-Stark]

So lots of people from the GTA are going to agree to live in Shelburne or Neil's Harbour for 3 years? Uh-huh...

[DoctorS]

But that hasn't been the case, hence the policies. I'd imagine the schools have more statistic on dispersement of their graduates than I do, but most of them are quite open about the fact that these restrictions/advantages (depends on your perspective, I guess) are to bolster the number of physicians in their areas.

 

Think about it - how would a school know someone stating that they want to practice somewhere they have never lived actually means that? Plenty of applicants would just say that they want to practice in underserved areas to get in. There's no way to verify intent, and there's no way to even know if you'd like living there if you haven't. But if they look at people who have actually lived in those areas, who have connections there and family there, then if I were on an adcom, that would tell me the person is more likely (not necessarily going to, but more likely) to go back there to practice.

 

Refer to my last post.

I suggested that students can sign a contract, to gain the same privileges as Maritime students, which states that they must work in the province of study for a certain amount of years after graduation.

 

Also, if I remember correclty, Alaska has a similar program where residents can sign a contract stating that they will live there for a certain amount of time (I believe it is 10 years), and in doing so they get a cash incentive at the end of every year, which I believe is somewhere near $1000/yr.

 

If PEI is in such dire need of physicians, then they can use a similar system; they can make individuals applying from other provinces to sign a contract ensuring that they will reside in PEI for a certain amount of time (~ 10 years), and in doing so they will receive the same privileges that applicants from PEI receive.

[A-Stark]

PEI does not have a medical school. You're saying that the government should fund seats at Dal and MUN for non-Maritime applicants who will be required to sign an ROS to practice (and presumably train) in PEI? How's that work? So they'd be mandated to do family medicine then?

 

All these kinds of proposals ignore the postgrad training issue.

[DoctorS]

Yeah, then they just leave. Of my mother's last three family doctors, none of whom were from here, all left within five years of getting here.

 

My last one (from Scotland) left within two years, leaving 4,000 patients, more than half of whom are still waiting for another doctor (along with thousands of others who have been waiting several years.)

 

Continuity of care is important in family practice. ROS agreements do not improve it.

 

I didn't think of it like that. I guess having to retrain physicians and having patients never having a regular family physician would get quite exasperating.

[bored]

if Ontario population >>> all other provinces population,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Canadian_provinces_and_territories_by_population

 

shouldn't Ontarian's deserve more docs than other provinces?

 

Quebec has 4-5 schools for themselves yet their population is half of Ontario. The only school in Ontario that accepts mostly (not all, cuase they accept oop too) Ontario students are perhaps Mac and Northern. so what happens to places like GTA? Where population is larger than 6 million (almost that of quebec) but I don;'t see a single school that accepts only GTA applicants?

 

Its a pretty stupid system in my opinion, but w.e, I can't change it.

[Birdy]

I didn't think of it like that. I guess having to retrain physicians and having patients never having a regular family physician would get quite exasperating.

 

Yes, it does. I waited two years for my last doctor, and was with him for about 11 months before he left in early 2011. I'm lucky that I got in with one just last month - most of my former doctor's patients are still waiting.

 

My mother had had serious issues because of doctors leaving. As a cardiac and chronic disease patient, continuity of care is extremely important, and she simply hasn't gotten that.

 

Our first crop of ROSes hasn't started yet (I believe it is being implemented shortly.) The doctors here frequently leave after they get their 3 year bonus, so I can say that doesn't seem to be working terribly well either. Edit: Correcting myself, we do have ROS agreements for resident positions already.

[DoctorS]

if Ontario population >>> all other provinces population,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Canadian_provinces_and_territories_by_population

 

shouldn't Ontarian's deserve more docs than other provinces?

 

Quebec has 4-5 schools for themselves yet their population is half of Ontario. The only school in Ontario that accepts mostly (not all, cuase they accept oop too) Ontario students are perhaps Mac and Northern. so what happens to places like GTA? Where population is larger than 6 million (almost that of quebec) but I don;'t see a single school that accepts only GTA applicants?

 

Its a pretty stupid system in my opinion, but w.e, I can't change it.

 

That's exactly the point that I was trying to convey, but the other members didn't really view it from an Ontarian, more specifically GTA, perspective. I'm guessing because they are most likely from Maritime or similar provinces and are already reaping the rewards.

[DoctorS]

Yes, it does. I waited two years for my last doctor, and was with him for about 11 months before he left in early 2011. I'm lucky that I got in with one just last month - most of my former doctor's patients are still waiting.

 

My mother had had serious issues because of doctors leaving. As a cardiac and chronic disease patient, continuity of care is extremely important, and she simply hasn't gotten that.

 

Our first crop of ROSes hasn't started yet (I believe it is being implemented shortly.) The doctors here frequently leave after they get their 3 year bonus, so I can say that doesn't seem to be working terribly well either. Edit: Correcting myself, we do have ROS agreements for resident positions already.

 

Oh yeah, I understand how horrible that would be. I just wish us GTA people had the same benefits for our schools as Maritime applicants did for theirs.

[A-Stark]

if Ontario population >>> all other provinces population,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Canadian_provinces_and_territories_by_population

 

shouldn't Ontarian's deserve more docs than other provinces?

 

Quebec has 4-5 schools for themselves yet their population is half of Ontario. The only school in Ontario that accepts mostly (not all, cuase they accept oop too) Ontario students are perhaps Mac and Northern. so what happens to places like GTA? Where population is larger than 6 million (almost that of quebec) but I don;'t see a single school that accepts only GTA applicants?

 

Its a pretty stupid system in my opinion, but w.e, I can't change it.

 

How is Quebec "half" the population of Ontario? Or does 8 / 13 = 0.50 now? And by "4-5" schools you mean 4?

 

Btw, the GTA is only "larger than 6 million" if you include Hamilton.

[bored]

How is Quebec "half" the population of Ontario? Or does 8 / 13 = 0.50 now? And by "4-5" schools you mean 4?

 

Btw, the GTA is only "larger than 6 million" if you include Hamilton.

 

 

Hamilton's population is 500 000, you think that changes anything at all?

if you subtract that from 6+ million, its stil la pretty large number, Yet I don't see a single school accepting only GTA applicants.

Yet for example Maritimes population (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maritimes, which is barely 2 million gets 2 schools for itself. w.e though.

 

like I said, Its a stupid system, but We can't really change it by talking about it.

Oh this is just an opinion of mine,