Why Don't Ontario Medical Schools Have Proviince Restrictions

[DoctorS]

How is Quebec "half" the population of Ontario? Or does 8 / 13 = 0.50 now? And by "4-5" schools you mean 4?

 

Btw, the GTA is only "larger than 6 million" if you include Hamilton.

 

8/13 is pretty close to 8/16 . Plus, having 4 schools for one province seems to be exceedingly unfair, not just to Ontarians.

 

EDIT: http://translate.google.ca/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=http://www.fmed.ulaval.ca/&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dlaval%2Bmedical%2Bschool%2Brequirements%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26sa%3DX%26rlz%3D1C2LENN_enCA493CA493%26biw%3D1366%26bih%3D667%26prmd%3Dimvns&sa=X&ei=Y04TUITpF4eV0QGqgoG4CQ&ved=0CFwQ7gEwAw

 

Furthermore, The University of Laval only accepts students from Quebec, and maritime provinces; not Ontario. How does that make sense in terms of equality? If all of these regions are provinces in Canada, with Canadians residing in them, then all Canadian applicants should be treated equally. Certain students shouldn't be discriminated upon due to their area residence. I strongly agree with bored, as I believe that the reasons I just stated strongly agree with his argument.

 

If Birdy says that physicians are desperately required in her province, I'm sure an agreement can be done (just like the agreemnt between the University of Laval and the maritime provinces) with other provinces and Dalhousie and MUN, allowing OOP applicants to apply at the same conditions as in province; just like the medical schools in our province do.

[A-Stark]

Hamilton's population is 500 000, you think that changes anything at all?

if you subtract that from 6+ million, its stil la pretty large number, Yet I don't see a single school accepting only GTA applicants.

Yet for example Maritimes population (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maritimes, which is barely 2 million gets 2 schools for itself. w.e though.

 

like I said, Its a stupid system, but We can't really change it by talking about it.

Oh this is just an opinion of mine,

 

1) Newfoundland and Labrador are not part of the Maritimes.

2) Dal and MUN combined have 176 spaces. Both accept OOP students in limited numbers (9 at Dal). That's fewer spaces than Mac and about the same number as Western and Ottawa. Until the Saint John campus was established, Dal was historically smaller than Queen's, which until NOSM came along was the smallest school in Ontario.

 

8/13 is pretty close to 8/16 . Plus, having 4 schools for one province seems to be exceedingly unfair, not just to Ontarians.

 

Furthermore, The University of Laval only accepts students from Quebec, and maritime province; not Ontario. How does that make sense in terms of equality?

 

What equality? Medical school spaces are funded by provincial governments for their own purposes and NOT for those of applicants. Laval also only accepts students who can speak French fluently. The lack of funded spaces for Franco-Ontarian applicants would be unfair if it weren't for the fact that Ottawa has just such a French-language program.

 

Les candidats considérés dans ce groupe doivent satisfaire aux exigences d’admission (par équivalence, par exemple : le diplôme en sciences de la santé de l’Université de Moncton) et sont recommandés par leur gouvernement provincial. Les provinces qui ont une entente avec le Québec sont :

 

Le Nouveau-Brunswick

la Nouvelle-Écosse

l'Île-du-Prince-Edouard

 

Il n’y a qu’une place accordée aux candidats des autres provinces ou territoires canadiens.

 

I'm not sure what to make of that last sentence, as they don't specify just how many places.

[smthg]

I'm not sure what to make of that last sentence, as they don't specify just how many places.

 

There's only one spot for applicants outside of Québec and the three provinces you named (from how I read it). I know Sherbrooke has also alloted spaces for the Alberta contingent.

[Savac]

That's exactly the point that I was trying to convey, but the other members didn't really view it from an Ontarian, more specifically GTA, perspective. I'm guessing because they are most likely from Maritime or similar provinces and are already reaping the rewards.

 

I'm also from the GTA, but I disagree with your suggestion

[bored]

1) Newfoundland and Labrador are not part of the Maritimes.

2) Dal and MUN combined have 176 spaces. Both accept OOP students in limited numbers (9 at Dal). That's fewer spaces than Mac and about the same number as Western and Ottawa. Until the Saint John campus was established, Dal was historically smaller than Queen's, which until NOSM came along was the smallest school in Ontario.

 

yea? so what? nothing comes close to the population of GTA, which is 6 million plus. Yet 0 schools.

 

Quebec? (8 million and 4-5 school? no idea about exact number of schools cause we can't apply, so don't care, oh and get in at 21? what bs is that? and no mcat? -> more bs.)

 

GTA? (6+ million yet, mac is the only school that remotely cares (though mac also takes in all other in province people, from London, Ontario and even the north. sure mac may have more seats than Dal and Mun but it doesn't justify the fact that GTA is twice has largely populated than the East)

 

Maritimes + Newfoundland and Labrodore (who cares about spelling) = 1.8 mill + 500k = 2.4 mill -> yet 2 schools.

 

I am not even getting the date for the Western provinces cause of lazyness, (numbers come from wiki) but,

Have fun explaining or trying to justify that.

 

ps: again, Its just an opinion.

 

pss: you wanna fix the problem of having a lack of doctors in east/west/north? then fix it by adding restrictions and forcing people to come back to their respective province (where they did med school) after residency by adding additional exams, maybe more fees, idk.

That way you get your doctors back (the docs who studied and whoes education was paied by the people who live in the area)

obviously Many (not all, but many) would love to get their hand on a job in a big city. thats probablly "you don't have any doctors" and are always crying for more doctors.

 

Some would argue this suggestion by saying "well what if some people actually wanna move to a big city?, --> Suggestion? than get a spot in the med school of that big city, not your home town and then move away.

(again, just an opinion)

[DanInVan]

As a Toronto student, I can assure you that the majority of students enrolled at U of T are from....wait for it....Toronto. They gave us the breakdown during our O-Week. My year has only 32 OOP students, out of 252. And over 60% of the class is from the GTA. So while there are no set spots, I can assure you that there are no shortage of students from the GTA and the OOP students aren't coming to steal your spots.

 

On another note, I completely agree with Dal, MUN, NOSM, etc. holding spots for residents of their own provinces. Having grown up in the Maritimes, I know that living there is not for everyone and wouldn't want to force someone to live there. My grandparents have had a stream of foreign trained doctors on ROS contracts in their town and it isn't a system that works for continuity of care, as Birdy has already mentioned. Lots of my friends want to stay and live in the Maritimes, but guess what, they're from there.

 

If you're a competitive applicant you will get it eventually, it's as simple as that. And if you don't, life goes on.

[NLengr]

yea? so what? nothing comes close to the population of GTA, which is 6 million plus. Yet 0 schools.

 

Quebec? (8 million and 4-5 school? no idea about exact number of schools cause we can't apply, so don't care, oh and get in at 21? what bs is that? and no mcat? -> more bs.)

 

GTA? (6+ million yet, mac is the only school that remotely cares (though mac also takes in all other in province people, from London, Ontario and even the north. sure mac may have more seats than Dal and Mun but it doesn't justify the fact that GTA is twice has largely populated than the East)

 

Maritimes + Newfoundland and Labrodore (who cares about spelling) = 1.8 mill + 500k = 2.4 mill -> yet 2 schools.

 

I am not even getting the date for the Western provinces cause of lazyness, (numbers come from wiki) but,

Have fun explaining or trying to justify that.

 

ps: again, Its just an opinion.

 

pss: you wanna fix the problem of having a lack of doctors in east/west/north? then fix it by adding restrictions and forcing people to come back to their respective province (where they did med school) after residency by adding additional exams, maybe more fees, idk.

That way you get your doctors back (the docs who studied and whoes education was paied by the people who live in the area)

obviously Many (not all, but many) would love to get their hand on a job in a big city. thats probablly "you don't have any doctors" and are always crying for more doctors.

 

Some would argue this suggestion by saying "well what if some people actually wanna move to a big city?, --> Suggestion? than get a spot in the med school of that big city, not your home town and then move away.

(again, just an opinion)

 

If you want more GTA med schools lobby your provincial government for more schools. It's not NL, NS, NB or PEI's fault that your province decided not to establish more med schools. Start writing letters if you are concerned.

 

That being said, now that Ontario is flat out broke they are much less likely to spend on things like additional med schools.

 

Also, have the common curtesy to spell a province's name correctly.

[A-Stark]

yea? so what? nothing comes close to the population of GTA, which is 6 million plus. Yet 0 schools.

 

Yes. Zero schools in the GTA and no one from the GTA ever gets into Mac or UofT. Right.

 

Quebec? (8 million and 4-5 school? no idea about exact number of schools cause we can't apply, so don't care, oh and get in at 21? what bs is that? and no mcat? -> more bs.)

 

Why do you keep saying "4-5" schools in Quebec? Just four - McGill, UdeM, Sherbrooke, and Laval. That's one school per 2 million people. Ontario has 6 schools for 13 million or one school per 2.17 million people. Not that it much matters, since the right measure would compare number of med school seats to population.

 

GTA? (6+ million yet, mac is the only school that remotely cares (though mac also takes in all other in province people, from London, Ontario and even the north. sure mac may have more seats than Dal and Mun but it doesn't justify the fact that GTA is twice has largely populated than the East)

 

Ontario has three schools that are each about the same size as Dal and MUN combined. It also has UofT, Queen's, and NOSM. There are ~6 times as many med school spaces in Ontario as in the Atlantic region and roughly 6 times as many people. Seems fine to me.

 

Maritimes + Newfoundland and Labrodore (who cares about spelling) = 1.8 mill + 500k = 2.4 mill -> yet 2 schools.

 

So? MUN is one of the smallest in the country.

 

I am not even getting the date for the Western provinces cause of lazyness, (numbers come from wiki) but,

Have fun explaining or trying to justify that.

 

What am I justifying exactly?

 

pss: you wanna fix the problem of having a lack of doctors in east/west/north? then fix it by adding restrictions and forcing people to come back to their respective province (where they did med school) after residency by adding additional exams, maybe more fees, idk.

That way you get your doctors back (the docs who studied and whoes education was paied by the people who live in the area)

obviously Many (not all, but many) would love to get their hand on a job in a big city. thats probablly "you don't have any doctors" and are always crying for more doctors.

 

Some would argue this suggestion by saying "well what if some people actually wanna move to a big city?, --> Suggestion? than get a spot in the med school of that big city, not your home town and then move away.

(again, just an opinion)

 

So physicians should be forced to practice in the catchment area of their med school? Why should undergrad medical education take precedence over where they did their postgrad training? This proposal makes no sense.

 

When you come up with a justification from an actual public policy angle I'll be back.

[ArchEnemy]

While we are on this topic, I'm surprised no one brought up UBC.

 

Vancouver and Victoria certainly do not have shortages of Doctors, but yet they have in-province preference

[Alai]

ATTN geniuses citing populations as a measure of how many doctors a region deserves

 

That's not how it works. Let me give you a simple example of why throwing out populations doesn't actually prove any point at all.

 

Lets take Toronto's population, 2.5 million.

 

# of people/square km in

Toronto = 3630

Nunavut = 0.015

 

Now, have a good hard look at these numbers. If you put a bunch of doctors in Toronto, and lets say that the hospital can only really help people within a 10km radius, you're already serving roughly 250,000 people. Now, the same math doesn't exactly apply to Nunavut because we can't assume an equal distribution of people, but without getting into the math, we can say that this number is going to be far less than 250,000. It'll probably be in the 1000s, because by the time you go past that, the people will be so far away that you can no longer serve them in a timely manner.

 

SO. I hope you realise that saving lives isn't a matter of how many people/doctor you get for a certain region, but rather how many people/doctor you can SAVE for a certain region.

 

Stop throwing out populations like it means anything. I get that you guys want to get into med schools so badly, but once again, policies aren't based on premeds, but on saving lives, and the Ontario policy is placed within a broader context of policies which are all ultimately aimed at saving lives by attempting to distribute doctors in an equitable way, not as a conspiracy against the lifelong dreams of anxious premeds. People in this thread opposing these policies really underestimate how much thought goes into policy-making.

 

Edit: I haven't even begun to cite obvious fact that the natural tendency is to move away from these regions, that medicine in these regions doesn't let doctors fulfill their maximum potential either in terms of income OR in terms of intellectual challenge (acc. to doctors I've talked to), the fact that the lifestyle doesn't appeal to most people, the fact that rural medicine requires unique training so that you can't just 'throw' someone into a province, I could really go on forever. I haven't heard a single real argument but how 'unfair' and 'unequal' the preference is. And the suggestions to force doctors to work in rural Canada is.. just lol. I hope you guys don't put these forth as serious arguments to interviewers if you are asked.

[Outlaw]

A lot of people here talk like they're stuck in the GTA. Most (all?) schools are willing to give you IP status if you reside in their province for a couple years. Put your money where your mouth is and show the commitment by moving to another province. If you choose to stay in the GTA, fine. But don't talk like there aren't any options out there. People have every opportunity to get in on these "perks" but they'd rather stay where they are and complain about a so-called unfair system.

[aaronjw]

8/13 is pretty close to 8/16 . Plus, having 4 schools for one province seems to be exceedingly unfair, not just to Ontarians.

 

 

 

let's see here:

8/13 = 61.5%

8/16 = 50%

 

If you think 8/13 is pretty close to 8/16 then you have some seriously flawed logic and we won't have to worry about you getting into med school.

 

May as well say that a 69% (C+) is close to 80% (A-)

 

Just wow.

[Gametime24]

Aaronjw, outlaw, a-stark, and alai, great work on this thread. Some really well laid out points here, not really sure how some people can read through this thread and still be stuck thinking about it as "totally unfair".

[charmer08]

A lot of people here talk like they're stuck in the GTA. Most (all?) schools are willing to give you IP status if you reside in their province for a couple years. Put your money where your mouth is and show the commitment by moving to another province. If you choose to stay in the GTA, fine. But don't talk like there aren't any options out there. People have every opportunity to get in on these "perks" but they'd rather stay where they are and complain about a so-called unfair system.

 

oh cmon who at the age of 17/18 knows that there is such a big disadvantage in going to a school in GTA...