dr.tom Posted August 24, 2012 Report Share Posted August 24, 2012 Hey guys and gals, I'm a Canadian who just graduated from a foreign medical school, and am apply to Carms and the US as well. I went to U of T for undergrad, but my grades were not competitive enough to get into a Canadian med school. My stats: Usmle step 1 - 210 ( 2 attempts- friggin hard exam) Usmle step Ck- 214 Usmle step 2 cs - pass Mccee- 285 Mccqe1- taking in November I did a 6 month research position in the US at a Cancer research center. I am doing an observership at U of T right now. I did 2 month of electives at U of T and got 2 LORs. Also, I volunteered at a nursing home with geriatric patients. Just wondering, do Canadian program directors even care about US scores? Also, thinking about applying to mainly family med, peds, psych and even internal. I think i have a chance in the US, but I really want to stay in Canada. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UTMTM Posted August 24, 2012 Report Share Posted August 24, 2012 I dunno dr.tom... You didn't do great in undergrad and your USMLE scores aren't so hot either. Would you want yourself for a doctor? I'm not trying to be inflammatory, I'm just legitimately curious about how confident you are in yourself. Certainly still apply. The elective at U of T and Canadian reference letters will probably help you. Do you have time to do more things like this? Perhaps at other centers in Canada. U of T is pretty competitive. I don't think any Canadian programs will look at your USMLE's. Also which "foreign" school are you from. I've heard through the grapevine that certain schools are viewed more highly than others. Ex: UK > Caribbean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Partyboy Posted August 24, 2012 Report Share Posted August 24, 2012 UTMTM, Are you a premed ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doranm Posted August 24, 2012 Report Share Posted August 24, 2012 I really can't give a good idea of your odds, but I imagine you should be able to get a spot somewhere in the US at the very least. Canada is a lot less likely even without looking at any of your exam scores, and it's unfortunately simply a numbers game. I only managed a 203 on step 1 myself, but then I only wanted to pass. I don't know if that's a good step 2 CK score, but anecdotally I've heard it matters a lot more. I've thought about writing it to apply to US programs, but I don't think it's worthwhile - I'll just do so with the LMCC in the spring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UTMTM Posted August 24, 2012 Report Share Posted August 24, 2012 UTMTM, Are you a premed ? I am. Before people lose their sh**, I must say my response was my own opinion but it was seconded by my brother who is in med school. He's foolish enough (or smart enough...?) to not have a premed account. Why? Do you disagree with what I said? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UTMTM Posted August 24, 2012 Report Share Posted August 24, 2012 but no one would blame me if I flamed you till kingdom come. Well that's mature. Why do people on this forum get so up in arms when a premed gives their opinion? Where in my post did you get the idea that I said the OP was bad in a clinical setting? I said it's going to be difficult for him/her. I also said doing electives here would help (i.e. so that people here could see his/her clinical ability). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gametime24 Posted August 24, 2012 Report Share Posted August 24, 2012 I do. I stopped reading your post after you told the OP that his GPA and USMLE scores are not good and are a reflection of his clinical ability. Many high scoring Students have done poorly in clerkship because it's a whole new ball game, and many low test scoring students have come out to shine in a clinical setting because they weren't goo test takers. I'm not losing my **** on you, but no one would blame me if I flamed you till kingdom come. Yeah, I didn't get that it was implied that the OP was bad clinically either. Unfortunately, numbers play a role in our system. For example, I'm sure some amazing doctors had low gpas in undergrad, and even though that didnt really predict how they would turn out, Im sure it made getting accepted somewhere more difficult. All I got from UTMTMs post was that, statistically, the OP isn't looking too great right now, and that's going to hinder their ability to get a residency spot here, regardless of how well they may have done clinically. Great clinic evals AND good step scores would be chosen over great clinic evals and mediocre step scores I would imagine. Mind you, I have no idea if that ^^ is correct info, im just a premed that doesn't have extensive knowledge of the residency system by any means, but I do think you misunderstood what he/she was trying to say. Idk, people interpret things differently, but I didn't think there was anything that wrong with how UTMTM worded things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dr.tom Posted August 24, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 24, 2012 Okay, let me clarify. I stated my GPA at undergrad at U of T was not competitive, I never stated it was low. I was a bio-chem grad, with a minor in psych. My GPA was 3.3. I even did my masters at U of T. My bio-chem background helped monumentally for all the bio-chem pathways and mechanisms that we were tested on during med school. When I applied to Ontario med schools, I got a generic email that thanked me for my application, but would not be able to grant an interview. Most Canadian med schools get 4000-5000 applicants for 150 spots. As you all have stated; its a numbers game. I had 4 friends that applied as well with me. All really bright, qualified applicants. 2 of them got the same generic email. 1 applied for 2 years in row, and by her 3rd year, she finally got accepted into a Canadian med school. The 4th person, ( and I ) left Canada, to pursue our medical education in Europe. We didn't want to use another year, and we wanted to become doctors. Even if it means going to practice in the US. I regret nothing about the experience. Europe was beautiful. I drank wine, and banged hot Spanish/ French/Italian women, that spoke 7 words of English, but thought doctors were sexy. If Canada, won't take me back, so be it. I'll go to the US. Oh, and UTMTM, you should refrain from providing your comments and/or feedback in the CaRMS application residency forum. Instead, you might want to study about organic chemistry nomenclature for the MCATs. Nothing personal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gametime24 Posted August 24, 2012 Report Share Posted August 24, 2012 Okay, let me clarify. I stated my GPA at undergrad at U of T was not competitive, I never stated it was low. I was a bio-chem grad, with a minor in psych. My GPA was 3.3. I even did my masters at U of T. My bio-chem background helped monumentally for all the bio-chem pathways and mechanisms that we were tested on during med school. When I applied to Ontario med schools, I got a generic email that thanked me for my application, but would not be able to grant an interview. Most Canadian med schools get 4000-5000 applicants for 150 spots. As you all have stated; its a numbers game. I had 4 friends that applied as well with me. All really bright, qualified applicants. 2 of them got the same generic email. 1 applied for 2 years in row, and by her 3rd year, she finally got accepted into a Canadian med school. The 4th person, ( and I ) left Canada, to pursue our medical education in Europe. We didn't want to use another year, and we wanted to become doctors. Even if it means going to practice in the US. I regret nothing about the experience. Europe was beautiful. I drank wine, and banged hot Spanish/ French/Italian women, that spoke 7 words of English, but thought doctors were sexy. If Canada, won't take me back, so be it. I'll go to the US. Oh, and UTMTM, you should refrain from providing your comments and/or feedback in the CaRMS application residency forum. Instead, you might want to study about organic chemistry nomenclature for the MCATs. Nothing personal. Dude, chill out. Low, non-competitive, whatever, the point was it was not a strong point in your application. Low is a relative term anyway. Is a 3.3 low compared to the university population? No. Is it low compared to most med school applicants? Yes. But that's not the point. The point is that you asked for feedback on coming back to Canada, UTMTM gave some feedback, you gotta take it all with a grain of salt. Your story seems fun, I'd love to go to med in overseas, unfortunately, it doesn't make coming back to Canada very easy. You could maybe look into getting a local licence in Canada after you finish your residency somewhere else (if you don't match into Canada). I know NS if pretty good about that sort of thing, not sure of the other provinces in Canada. Just cause someone is premed doesn't mean they cant have valuable info, UTMTM apparently has a sibling in med, so there could be great advice coming from there, obviously not everything said on here is great advice, but you guys are giving him/her way too much **** for essentially doing nothing wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tooty Posted August 24, 2012 Report Share Posted August 24, 2012 the med students and residents here should start putting their level of training in their signatures. premeds chiming in on carms matters is rather ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gametime24 Posted August 24, 2012 Report Share Posted August 24, 2012 the med students and residents here should start putting their level of training in their signatures. premeds chiming in on carms matters is rather ridiculous. Who says the premed doesn't know someone in the field and can offer good advice? Last year, my best friend was still pre-dent, but his whole family is in the business and he was able to tell people a lot more good information about applying, getting into OMFS, where positions are saturated, etc, than our pre-health advisor and some of the grads from here that were already in dent. Again, I've got no idea if that's the case here really, but people are getting way to up tight about someone just trying to help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KennethToronto Posted August 28, 2012 Report Share Posted August 28, 2012 the med students and residents here should start putting their level of training in their signatures. premeds chiming in on carms matters is rather ridiculous. it's a forum on the interwebz where anyone can write anything. But I do agree...I always rolls my eyes a little bit when those overreach posts come along. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nosuperman Posted August 28, 2012 Report Share Posted August 28, 2012 The, "your undergrad and boards were low scores, would you want yourself as a doctor?" was equating scores with clinical skill - had nothing to do with odds or numbers. Plus undergrad is meaningless and pointless to bring up. Premed or not its that unsupported judgement that people are taking issue with and it seems like something a med student would be perfectly aware of. OP have you gone over the numbers for IMGs? Here's a copy paste from a post I made in another forum to someone considering IMG route. IMG Match Results. Note that for many specialties there are barely any spots available to begin with. Something to keep in mind. Comparison of CMG vs. US vs. IMG match success. 2507/2576 Canadian grads matched, 22/35 US grads, and 380/1920 IMG. IMG match results by region. Australia looks strongest to me with about 1/2 matching. Several Aussie schools have either partnerships (formal and informal) with Canadian programs or they let you do electives in Canada, which helps. A lot. Europe is about 1/4. Caribbean is about 1/3. Main Page You can check out the number from each country who matched to each specialty and get an idea of where you might stand statistically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rogerroger Posted August 28, 2012 Report Share Posted August 28, 2012 Why do people on this forum get so up in arms when a premed gives their opinion? I don't think we are "up in arms", but I do think you look silly commenting on this. It would be like me commenting on medieval french literature or something... Yeah sure, I once took an undergrad course in french but I would look silly advising the PhD guys on this topic... The honest reality is that when it comes to CaRMS you don't know your behind from your grey matter at this point of the game. Just saying... But all to their own... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dr.tom Posted August 31, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 31, 2012 I don't think we are "up in arms", but I do think you look silly commenting on this. It would be like me commenting on medieval french literature or something... Yeah sure, I once took an undergrad course in french but I would look silly advising the PhD guys on this topic... hahahaha... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leviathan Posted September 1, 2012 Report Share Posted September 1, 2012 Canadian programs don't look at US scores, although I've heard rumors that U of T does take the USMLE into consideration if you've written it. What might hurt you is your MCCEE score as many programs set cutoffs to offering interviews. All the FM spots for Ontario had a cutoff somewhere in the mid 300s last year, if I remember correctly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docrock Posted September 2, 2012 Report Share Posted September 2, 2012 Hey guys and gals, I'm a Canadian who just graduated from a foreign medical school, and am apply to Carms and the US as well. I went to U of T for undergrad, but my grades were not competitive enough to get into a Canadian med school. My stats: Usmle step 1 - 210 ( 2 attempts- friggin hard exam) Usmle step Ck- 214 Usmle step 2 cs - pass Mccee- 285 Mccqe1- taking in November I did a 6 month research position in the US at a Cancer research center. I am doing an observership at U of T right now. I did 2 month of electives at U of T and got 2 LORs. Also, I volunteered at a nursing home with geriatric patients. Just wondering, do Canadian program directors even care about US scores? Also, thinking about applying to mainly family med, peds, psych and even internal. I think i have a chance in the US, but I really want to stay in Canada. I'm sorry to hear about your 1st time USMLE Step 1 failure. But the reality is that you failed Step 1 once!! (BIG RED FLAG) On top of that I'm assuming you're not even a U.S. citizen. Applicants who've gotten USMLE Step 1 and 2 scores > 230 are struggling to get interviews mainly because of the visa issues. Going to a foreign school already makes you look like a failure in the eyes of many PDs. Let's accept the fact that we were simply not competitive enough in undergrad to get into a North American Med School (Yes, I'm also a top 4 Caribbean med student and had a 3.5 undergrad GPA). A lot of people going abroad to study medicine take this as an opportunity to excel on their board exams and prove to the PDs that they can outshine an average North American medical student. Going to a foreign school you can't have an excuse that you failed your Step 1 when in reality >92% of North American applicants pass it on 1st attempt. You'd be lucky to have a handful of interviews even at mediocre community programs in the U.S. For MCCEE I've heard you need to be in the top 5 percentile to be granted interviews (Scores > 350). Honestly, your best bet is to pick a program and make inside contacts. At the end of the day, rules can be bent if the PD likes you and wants you in their program. Again, just putting things into perspectives since you asked for your chances. Honestly don't take this personally. Not everyone is a great test taker but the reality is if you're an offshore medical student, your scores are the only things that get you past the initial filter. Your application is not even reviewed if you don't pass that filter. Sorry for the reality check! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dr.tom Posted September 4, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 4, 2012 well, I'll be damned. Looks likes I'm in a pickle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mavrik13 Posted September 5, 2012 Report Share Posted September 5, 2012 Okay, let me clarify. I stated my GPA at undergrad at U of T was not competitive, I never stated it was low. I was a bio-chem grad, with a minor in psych. My GPA was 3.3. I even did my masters at U of T. My bio-chem background helped monumentally for all the bio-chem pathways and mechanisms that we were tested on during med school. When I applied to Ontario med schools, I got a generic email that thanked me for my application, but would not be able to grant an interview. Most Canadian med schools get 4000-5000 applicants for 150 spots. As you all have stated; its a numbers game. I had 4 friends that applied as well with me. All really bright, qualified applicants. 2 of them got the same generic email. 1 applied for 2 years in row, and by her 3rd year, she finally got accepted into a Canadian med school. The 4th person, ( and I ) left Canada, to pursue our medical education in Europe. We didn't want to use another year, and we wanted to become doctors. Even if it means going to practice in the US. I regret nothing about the experience. Europe was beautiful. I drank wine, and banged hot Spanish/ French/Italian women, that spoke 7 words of English, but thought doctors were sexy. If Canada, won't take me back, so be it. I'll go to the US. Oh, and UTMTM, you should refrain from providing your comments and/or feedback in the CaRMS application residency forum. Instead, you might want to study about organic chemistry nomenclature for the MCATs. Nothing personal. This is exactly what I would be looking for if I were looking to fill out spots in my residency program... Best of luck to you. Your odds are almost non-existent for Canadian residency spots. I know far less about American residency spots, but I know enough that failing the USMLE Step 1 is a bad sign. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coastalslacker Posted September 5, 2012 Report Share Posted September 5, 2012 This is exactly what I would be looking for if I were looking to fill out spots in my residency program... Best of luck to you. Your odds are almost non-existent for Canadian residency spots. I know far less about American residency spots, but I know enough that failing the USMLE Step 1 is a bad sign. lol, don't be a hater cause you're jealous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dr.tom Posted September 5, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 5, 2012 wow, I'm really starting to feel the tension here...anyone else? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willowgate Posted September 5, 2012 Report Share Posted September 5, 2012 Hey Dr. Tom, you are getting hated like there is no tomorrow....don't sweat it bro. Just apply here or the states, you'll be fine. I work with 3 IMGs, 2 are Canadian like yourself, and they're friggin all stars, don't listen to all the negative people telling you'll never get through. I am disgusted by the people discouraging you, and are there really pre-meds commenting here? I mean, really? These guys need to finish undergrad, ace the MCATs, pray they get into med school, complete a rigorous basic sciences curriculum, get through clerkships, pass the boards, get top evals, gather LORs. You guys are about 6 years away from even knowing what the OP has gone through...just ridiculous, utterly ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A-Stark Posted September 5, 2012 Report Share Posted September 5, 2012 The OP failed step 1 and got middling passing scores on steps 1&2 and the MCCEE. These are hardly "all star" scores. Pessimism about success in the US let alone the Canadian match is well founded. And to the extent that medical school admissions somewhat resembles a numbers game, that would be more relevant were the OP's undergrad GPA above 3.7 rather than a 3.3, which is flatly and irredeemably uncompetitive everywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dr.tom Posted September 6, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 6, 2012 So....how bout them Yankees? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
advair250 Posted May 5, 2014 Report Share Posted May 5, 2014 OP how did things turn out? I would be very surprised if you actually did even match in the US.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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