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Best MED SCHOOL FOR IMG?


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you are really not making sense...

 

you wanna gamble int MD to be a PA

 

 

...why not go to PA to be PA?

 

in the US PA are goodjobd..and have great time for family life and are compensated well...(i dont know about here....as canada can barely hold up its own shorts withouth falling over)

 

he was saying CSA should consider PA before going abroad to do an int. MD

 

int. MD is still a gamble to have another playing field when you apply for residency (in terms of stats it's the same thing as getting into canadian MD school -- so you're essentially paying $200k out of your pocket so that you can compete again for a residency spot)

 

getting into canadian MD = 10~20% chance

getting into canadian residency as an IMG = 10~20% chance

 

why do the extra 4 years of debt when you don't really 'gain' any increase in chance to practice medicine

 

just do PA and get along with ur life

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Yes, why don't you use a ranking system that includes multiple non-existent medical schools in its list, and uses criteria such as number of research publications to decide who provides the best quality of education. Well done, way to think that one through. ;)

 

WOW.

Let me guess, your a post-recession marketing major hired by the Caribbean to post incessantly on forums as a 'neutral' thinker? Why does "St. George U" needs to sponsor a thread on the SDN when they have dorks like you.

 

Research publications are a critical part of a Universities reputation. Better education is correlated with higher outputs in research. Anybody who goes to a University knows that.... they downplay this kind of importance at diploma mills. Thats actually why they are called a diploma mill.... actual research is non-existent and, hence, the university is not reputable.

 

At any rate, you conveniently forget to mention that QS utilizes other VERY important education factors like faculty to student ratio. QS isn't perfect, but let's play your game.... show me a carib med school on your idea of a reputable ranking system. Actually, i'll do you one better; Show be a carib med school on ANY ranking system other than the one buried deep down inside your *******.

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WOW.

Let me guess, your a post-recession marketing major hired by the Caribbean to post incessantly on forums as a 'neutral' thinker? Why does "St. George U" needs to sponsor a thread on the SDN when they have dorks like

Research publications are a critical part of a Universities reputation. Better education is correlated with higher outputs in research. Anybody who goes to a University knows that.... they downplay this kind of importance at diploma mills. Thats actually why they are called a diploma mill.... actual research is non-existent and, hence, the university is not reputable.

 

At any rate, you conveniently forget to mention that QS utilizes other VERY important education factors like faculty to student ratio. QS isn't perfect, but let's play your game.... show me a carib med school on your idea of a reputable ranking system. Actually, i'll do you one better; Show be a carib med school on ANY ranking system other than the one buried deep down inside your *******.

2 posts vs. 2200, who's the person with more credibility here? ;)

 

Bottom line, you're using a ranking system that lists universities that don't even HAVE a medical school. They must have spent a long time reviewing the universities...wait, they didn't even realize they were including non-existent medical schools on their list.

 

The things that matter for medical schools:

1. Student:faculty ratio

2. Quality of facilities (classrooms, libraries, exam rooms, sim labs, PBL/small group rooms etc.)

3. Quality of pre-clerkship faculty (PhD/MD trained, active in their field, primarily employed for teaching, trained in educational techniques)

4. Quality of clerkship training (autonomy given to students, didactics, patient contact, diversity of patient populations etc.)

5. Board scores

6. Board pass rates

7. Residency match rates (including % matching in competitive fields)

 

None of those things are factored into the QS rankings, and SGU, Ross, Saba rank much higher in the above criteria than many of the other schools which are regarded highly only because of their name. There are people who have little intelligence and evaluate a program solely based on its name. Many people are like you, going to a store and buying whatever product has a name brand on it, when they are often inferior in quality and more expensive in price.

 

That said, it's because of that fact that people may be at a disadvantage when applying for residency in Canada where they would take someone from Queensland over SGU if all else was equal between two applicants. Thankfully they do take into account several other factors which differentiate applicants and where you go to medical school does not matter they know you and people are willing to vouch for you.

 

At the end of the day, the top Carib schools and most of the Aus/Irish schools are all pretty equal at providing your education. The most important factor is not the school but how smart the individual is and how hard they work.

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2 posts vs. 2200, who's the person with more credibility here? ;)

 

Bottom line, you're using a ranking system that lists universities that don't even HAVE a medical school. They must have spent a long time reviewing the universities...wait, they didn't even realize they were including non-existent medical schools on their list.

 

The things that matter for medical schools:

1. Student:faculty ratio

2. Quality of facilities (classrooms, libraries, exam rooms, sim labs, PBL/small group rooms etc.)

3. Quality of pre-clerkship faculty (PhD/MD trained, active in their field, primarily employed for teaching, trained in educational techniques)

4. Quality of clerkship training (autonomy given to students, didactics, patient contact, diversity of patient populations etc.)

5. Board scores

6. Board pass rates

7. Residency match rates (including % matching in competitive fields)

 

None of those things are factored into the QS rankings, and SGU, Ross, Saba rank much higher in the above criteria than many of the other schools which are regarded highly only because of their name. There are people who have little intelligence and evaluate a program solely based on its name. Many people are like you, going to a store and buying whatever product has a name brand on it, when they are often inferior in quality and more expensive in price.

 

That said, it's because of that fact that people may be at a disadvantage when applying for residency in Canada where they would take someone from Queensland over SGU if all else was equal between two applicants. Thankfully they do take into account several other factors which differentiate applicants and where you go to medical school does not matter they know you and people are willing to vouch for you.

 

At the end of the day, the top Carib schools and most of the Aus/Irish schools are all pretty equal at providing your education. The most important factor is not the school but how smart the individual is and how hard they work.

 

 

Totally agree - and for this reason schools that don't sell off positions to those who can pay are the best schools. If Harvard let anyone and their dog in (like international schools do for their "international spots") These graduates wouldn't good be very despite going to a top ranked University.

 

If you can get into a reputable medical school through the correct domestic pathway and be one of the 5-10% who are accepted, it is likely because you are a talented applicant and it is likely that if you keep up the hard work and attitude that got you there you will become a great physician. No shortcuts!!

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WHO cares if they are equal OR ABOVE footing

 

if you dont have a job after 4 years...whats the point...

 

id rather go to a **** school in newfoundland vs

going abroad and running into visa issues

 

There are no **** medical schools in Canada. If you are referring to Memorial you have no idea what your talking about. Getting into memorial is just about as good as getting into any other medical school. Sure UofT, McGill, UBC are classically the big names of Canadian medicine, but they are all pretty good, and I go to one of the big three, so Im not just saying that they are all good because I have an inferiority complex.

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There are no **** medical schools in Canada. If you are referring to Memorial you have no idea what your talking about. Getting into memorial is just about as good as getting into any other medical school. Sure UofT, McGill, UBC are classically the big names of Canadian medicine, but they are all pretty good, and I go to one of the big three, so Im not just saying that they are all good because I have an inferiority complex.

 

And we've been over this a few times on the board. No one Canadian school conveys an advantage when it comes to match time. A few people have looked at the numbers and nobody has ever found a consistent advantage for one school over another.

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There are no **** medical schools in Canada. If you are referring to Memorial you have no idea what your talking about. Getting into memorial is just about as good as getting into any other medical school. Sure UofT, McGill, UBC are classically the big names of Canadian medicine, but they are all pretty good, and I go to one of the big three, so Im not just saying that they are all good because I have an inferiority complex.

Once again this prejudice rears its ugly head, not only for international schools but even in the context of Canadian schools. Just because MUN is in Newfoundland and is otherwise not a well known entity doesn't say anything about the quality of education provided there. Reputation =/= quality. Also what makes UofT,Mcgill, UBC the 'big three' in Canadian medicine? Do they do better on board exams? Do they have better clinical rotations? Do they have better faculty? Once again it all goes back to this irrelevant issue of which universities are best known internationally, namely for volume of research and completely unrelated to their medical programs.

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Once again this prejudice rears its ugly head, not only for international schools but even in the context of Canadian schools. Just because MUN is in Newfoundland and is otherwise not a well known entity doesn't say anything about the quality of education provided there. Reputation =/= quality. Also what makes UofT,Mcgill, UBC the 'big three' in Canadian medicine? Do they do better on board exams? Do they have better clinical rotations? Do they have better faculty? Once again it all goes back to this irrelevant issue of which universities are best known internationally, namely for volume of research and completely unrelated to their medical programs.

 

I think the last two people misunderstood the intent of my post. I was defending Memorial, saying that it was a good school and that all Canadian medical schools are truly excellent! The big three are the best known (for the reasons you mentioned above) but all are truly excellent places to practice medicine. All have very competitive application processes and only accept the best and brightest (sadly leaving many relatively good candidates without a position). These schools have excellent track records with fantastic clinical faculty and they get high quality in and therefore produce high quality out.

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Once again this prejudice rears its ugly head, not only for international schools but even in the context of Canadian schools. Just because MUN is in Newfoundland and is otherwise not a well known entity doesn't say anything about the quality of education provided there. Reputation =/= quality. Also what makes UofT,Mcgill, UBC the 'big three' in Canadian medicine? Do they do better on board exams? Do they have better clinical rotations? Do they have better faculty? Once again it all goes back to this irrelevant issue of which universities are best known internationally, namely for volume of research and completely unrelated to their medical programs.

 

Yeah I would have to support that for the most part - once you get into residency programs some important differences can appear (locally better programs) but at the medical school level they are all pretty awesome.

 

It comes back to funding - unlike the US in Canada each school gets roughly the same amount per student - it is hard to gain a lasting advantage in any way when the funding is locked in under such a system.

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I think the last two people misunderstood the intent of my post. I was defending Memorial, saying that it was a good school and that all Canadian medical schools are truly excellent! The big three are the best known (for the reasons you mentioned above) but all are truly excellent places to practice medicine. All have very competitive application processes and only accept the best and brightest (sadly leaving many relatively good candidates without a position). These schools have excellent track records with fantastic clinical faculty and they get high quality in and therefore produce high quality out.

My bad, I didn't mean to imply you were bashing MUN. I should have quoted the other person. :) Who knows,for all we know MUN might be the #1 medical school in Canada. Going to a more 'rural' program might afford you much more clinical responsibility as a clerk than if you go to a bigger/busier program where you're fighting with all sorts of other people (other students, residents, fellows etc) for responsibility. I think that responsibility helps train you to be a better doctor and be more prepared for residency.

 

As an example on surgery I didn't have as great of an experience because I was at a large tertiary care hospital where mostly all I did was hold the laparoscope or retract,and closing fascia/skin at the end of the case. On the other hand I had classmates who were at rural hospitals that were basically first assists and enjoyed surgery much more because of how much they got to do.

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My bad, I didn't mean to imply you were bashing MUN. I should have quoted the other person. :) Who knows,for all we know MUN might be the #1 medical school in Canada. Going to a more 'rural' program might afford you much more clinical responsibility as a clerk than if you go to a bigger/busier program where you're fighting with all sorts of other people (other students, residents, fellows etc) for responsibility. I think that responsibility helps train you to be a better doctor and be more prepared for residency.

 

As an example on surgery I didn't have as great of an experience because I was at a large tertiary care hospital where mostly all I did was hold the laparoscope or retract,and closing fascia/skin at the end of the case. On the other hand I had classmates who were at rural hospitals that were basically first assists and enjoyed surgery much more because of how much they got to do.

 

Closing fascia is actually a big deal for a med student, believe it or not. Poor fascia closure can have signifigant short and long term consequences.

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I think the last two people misunderstood the intent of my post. I was defending Memorial, saying that it was a good school and that all Canadian medical schools are truly excellent! The big three are the best known (for the reasons you mentioned above) but all are truly excellent places to practice medicine. All have very competitive application processes and only accept the best and brightest (sadly leaving many relatively good candidates without a position). These schools have excellent track records with fantastic clinical faculty and they get high quality in and therefore produce high quality out.

 

I was adding to your post. I understood the position you were taking.

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  • 2 weeks later...
  • 3 weeks later...
he was saying CSA should consider PA before going abroad to do an int. MD

 

int. MD is still a gamble to have another playing field when you apply for residency (in terms of stats it's the same thing as getting into canadian MD school -- so you're essentially paying $200k out of your pocket so that you can compete again for a residency spot)

 

getting into canadian MD = 10~20% chance

getting into canadian residency as an IMG = 10~20% chance

 

why do the extra 4 years of debt when you don't really 'gain' any increase in chance to practice medicine

 

just do PA and get along with ur life

 

From the stats it appears that on average the chance of a Canadian applicant getting into a Canadian MD program in recent years is 25-30%. Not 10-20%. The acceptance rate for Canadian applicants has never dipped as low as 20% at any time during the 40 years for which we have data. Of course for an individual it could be way lower or way higher depending on where you live and where you went to high school, among other personal characteristics.

 

http://www.afmc.ca/pdf/ApplicantsCmes2010.pdf

Page 13

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I went to medschool abroad. Well...Almost. I had to leave for family issues before the semester even began haha.

 

I plan on going back over to Ireland if Canadian and US routes don't work out for ONE reason and one reason only: I have an EU citizenship. There is no reason to gamble with that much money unless you have a safety net (like a citizenship and a guaranteed residency). Afterwards if you are not satisfied with the life of an MD (MBBS) in Europe, then you can head on over to Canada (file the paperwork first and work in the meantime).

 

As for what school is better than the other, I'm a strong believer that residency is what determines a good physician. Most docs I know will ask eachother where they did their res, not where they went to med school. Do you really think the books in Caribs are that different than in Canada? Not to mention we are talking about medical school here! You aren't spoon fed all the material and it's mostly up to you to go the extra mile.

 

Note: the above argument doesn't include learning atmosphere (re: abundance of morons) or student:teacher ratios.

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From the stats it appears that on average the chance of a Canadian applicant getting into a Canadian MD program in recent years is 25-30%. Not 10-20%. The acceptance rate for Canadian applicants has never dipped as low as 20% at any time during the 40 years for which we have data. Of course for an individual it could be way lower or way higher depending on where you live and where you went to high school, among other personal characteristics.

 

http://www.afmc.ca/pdf/ApplicantsCmes2010.pdf

Page 13

 

You have to take into consideration the number of people who never even apply to Canadian med schools as they realize they would not be competitive / don't meet minimums etc. That makes it far lower.

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As for what school is better than the other, I'm a strong believer that residency is what determines a good physician. Most docs I know will ask eachother where they did their res, not where they went to med school.

Most people who ask want to know where you went to med school, although usually it's not even an issue.

 

Do you really think the books in Caribs are that different than in Canada? Not to mention we are talking about medical school here! You aren't spoon fed all the material and it's mostly up to you to go the extra mile.

The books and even the professors + teaching are usually pretty similar at med schools in Canada or the Caribbean or Ireland etc., but there are still differences in quality of the curriculum, PBL, access to other teaching resources, evaluation process etc. But it's not the pre-clerkship training where you see the biggest deficiencies. The huge difference is in the clerkship and clinical training. There is a wide variation in quality at this point and this is what makes or breaks a medical school. Canadian medical schools are usually superior in this aspect because most students get a lot more independence, autonomy and clinical experience on a consistent basis. There are Carib and IRish and other schools with excellent training but these same schools may put students in sites with poor training. That lack of consistency means you can't guarantee the quality of a student just by where they went to med school, but in Canada I think there's a lot more reliability to the training which gives you some assurance in ability if you know someone is a Canadian grad.

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meh, this is why i entertain dropping out of my prestegious canadian school if rbc ****ed up bad enough to allow me to pay for an average american do...

 

to quote ferris bueller... quoting a beetle, i dont believe in the beatles, i believe in me, and i know i wont let myself get the residency i want.... res location is wut really counts... and i know i can finnish at the top of the usmle, it's simple worker harder and longer than everyone else, lol... i had pf with a passion

 

There are no **** medical schools in Canada. If you are referring to Memorial you have no idea what your talking about. Getting into memorial is just about as good as getting into any other medical school. Sure UofT, McGill, UBC are classically the big names of Canadian medicine, but they are all pretty good, and I go to one of the big three, so Im not just saying that they are all good because I have an inferiority complex.
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Most people who ask want to know where you went to med school, although usually it's not even an issue.

 

 

The books and even the professors + teaching are usually pretty similar at med schools in Canada or the Caribbean or Ireland etc., but there are still differences in quality of the curriculum, PBL, access to other teaching resources, evaluation process etc. But it's not the pre-clerkship training where you see the biggest deficiencies. The huge difference is in the clerkship and clinical training. There is a wide variation in quality at this point and this is what makes or breaks a medical school. Canadian medical schools are usually superior in this aspect because most students get a lot more independence, autonomy and clinical experience on a consistent basis. There are Carib and IRish and other schools with excellent training but these same schools may put students in sites with poor training. That lack of consistency means you can't guarantee the quality of a student just by where they went to med school, but in Canada I think there's a lot more reliability to the training which gives you some assurance in ability if you know someone is a Canadian grad.

 

This may not apply for Carib schools, but as far as Ireland is concerned: they will provide you with the training you require to be a successful physician in Ireland. These schools aren't established to train students who want to leave. The majority of their student body is composed of locals.

 

As for your points on PBL etc, you are absolutely correct. I was just trying to prove the point that many international schools are just as good at preparing their students to work in the local area as Canadian schools are. I remember a year or so ago in an older thread someone once argued that Int schools were inferior based on the fact that they learn different things (they claimed diseases in other regions are different enough to support this claim).

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This may not apply for Carib schools, but as far as Ireland is concerned: they will provide you with the training you require to be a successful physician in Ireland. These schools aren't established to train students who want to leave. The majority of their student body is composed of locals.

I have no experience with the clinical training in Ireland, so I can't say. I do know that the training was slightly better in Canada compared to the US, from my personal experience anyway. The didactic education was equal if not better in the US, but for hands-on experience I feel like Canadians get more exposure and autonomy, which is more important.

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From the stats it appears that on average the chance of a Canadian applicant getting into a Canadian MD program in recent years is 25-30%. Not 10-20%. The acceptance rate for Canadian applicants has never dipped as low as 20% at any time during the 40 years for which we have data. Of course for an individual it could be way lower or way higher depending on where you live and where you went to high school, among other personal characteristics.

 

http://www.afmc.ca/pdf/ApplicantsCmes2010.pdf

Page 13

 

It is between 10-20% in Ontario and even lower in the GTA. The GTA is a huge factory for premeds and at the same time misses all the regional loyalties everywhere else in Canada. SWOMEN at Western. Northern Ontario at Northern Ontario SOM etc etc. All the other Ontario medical schools allow open season for all applicants across Canada whereas all other provincial med schools reserve 90% of their spots for their own province.

 

Its about time that all these restrictions should be eliminated. The US doesn't have these restrictions with the exception of fees in state schools, and does perfectly fine distributing its students across the country. But to have so many provincial restrictions just ends up discriminating against the GTA and to a lesser extent BC. It is also ironic that those areas happen to be where many minorities live.

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honestly, the note about residency is so true... if i settle on psych i can walk into almost any american residency... i'm an insanely strong believer that personal dedication versus the school you go to is what seperates the exceptional from the average... residency as well, since drastic differences in practical learning oppurtunities, exposure to different degrees of clinical diversity... say trauma etc. if you're into er, make a practical difference... basic sciences, honestly, i would expect to be near the top, because that's just me, and it's not a matter of hitting the goal, it's increasing my effort until i hit it, which is why i love the usmle... 30 percent of a class may fail out, but i know, personally, that if i'm not in the top 5 i'm not happy, and statistics don't apply to individuals... iuno, i skipped half my classes and undergrad and went to almost all the office hours, made friends with my profs, and learned a lot more than sitting in useless lectures, the argument that the school determines your quality of education is ridiculous, and external funding is everywhere for top students, students who gain employment in bio firms etc. who will fund for ros, people willing to do phds in obscure areas of particular interest to private donors... so if ur into research into atypical topics, just stuff not that big, u may be in luck, yeah, i may sound like a whore for cash, but if a pharma company will fund my ed if i do an md/phd in computational drug design or an md/jd or a masters in clinical trials (and at this point, restructuring an amphetamine backbone, to get different pharmacological and behavioral effect... generating synergistic ideas for drugs in an oros delivery system are just bang bang in my head, even knowing genetic variability for disorders and patent issueing for new indications... selgeline for adhd... wow... even many immune signalling sequestering agents for ptsd, fibromyalgia... like a whole new line of antipsychotics designed on cross receptor regulation minimizing side effects... the new tolerance free benzos, small peptide attachments to polymers for specific drug delivery... which relies heavily on computational algorithims since conventional proteomics can't do peptides that small... it's seriously a gold mine... i guess i'm rambling, but yeah, people will fund you

 

even the notion of a residency is interesting, maybe it's that my interests have always been way more diverse than clinical, but an md/mba, md/jd, md/mph are so sexy... i guess i see a job everywhere i go... lol, this guy selling used video games (making enormous profit buying at 24 percent retail from poor families and selling to yuppies looking for nostalgia, 75 percent profit margin... you're setting yourself up to be selectively undercut on your most profitable products, especially by someone who can do it with less overhead, like, the guy gets games at the flea market and poor desperate families, i offered fifty percent outside his store as a little probe, yeah, lets say 50 percent profit margin without huge overhead, finding his advertising avenues, and putting competing advertising, well, that overhead bites. even like, tianeptine... it's a french ssre that is a nutritional supplement legally, in fact a superior antidepressent to most we have here, out 20 years before prozac, and kept out of n.a. by the fda to protect prozac... people pay 11.99, sell for 40, and believe me, huge sales, ditto reboxatine, an snri we would have here if straterra didnt fail as an antidepressent and get shifted to adhd... i can go on forever

 

making money is easy as hell if you're creative, it's the enjoying your job making money part that sometimes is difficult, which is where your warning of matching is totally valid for sure

 

I went to medschool abroad. Well...Almost. I had to leave for family issues before the semester even began haha.

 

I plan on going back over to Ireland if Canadian and US routes don't work out for ONE reason and one reason only: I have an EU citizenship. There is no reason to gamble with that much money unless you have a safety net (like a citizenship and a guaranteed residency). Afterwards if you are not satisfied with the life of an MD (MBBS) in Europe, then you can head on over to Canada (file the paperwork first and work in the meantime).

 

As for what school is better than the other, I'm a strong believer that residency is what determines a good physician. Most docs I know will ask eachother where they did their res, not where they went to med school. Do you really think the books in Caribs are that different than in Canada? Not to mention we are talking about medical school here! You aren't spoon fed all the material and it's mostly up to you to go the extra mile.

 

Note: the above argument doesn't include learning atmosphere (re: abundance of morons) or student:teacher ratios.

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