Pa = Md

[jerkoutnow2]

so who here thinks a PA will eventually be considered to be equal to MD?

 

i think it's only a matter of time that PAs demand for independence will be accepted politically and a parallel system of medical education will grow.

 

In the US it's more prevalent with the formation of a DScPA degrees to bring PAs on an equal playing field as MDs

 

Since PAs are educated on the medical model and basically go through the same education as an MD,

 

20~30 years down the road, with increasing political pressure, it's no doubt that DScPA will equal MD in NA.

 

Even in the current system, most PAs feel competent enough to perform medical procedures without the supervision of MDs, and most feel confident enough to practise independently (esp. in the U.S) and want a name change to a 'physician associate' to recommend that they're on a parallel playing field as MDs

[robinre]

What's the point of having 2 degrees that are essentially equivalent? A PA will never be the same as an MD. There are lots of discrepancies between programs and specialization available to MD grads (surgery etc.) isn't available as a PA.

I do agree that associate is a better term, since PA's are extremely knowledgeable and often take the place of doctors in many areas throughout the country already - they shouldn't be thought of as assistants but rather partners. I definitely think there is room for both in our healthcare system, and that the two should work as complimentary to one another rather than competing for the same work!!

[jerkstore]

so who here thinks a PA will eventually be considered to be equal to MD?

 

i think it's only a matter of time that PAs demand for independence will be accepted politically and a parallel system of medical education will grow.

 

In the US it's more prevalent with the formation of a DScPA degrees to bring PAs on an equal playing field as MDs

 

Since PAs are educated on the medical model and basically go through the same education as an MD,

 

20~30 years down the road, with increasing political pressure, it's no doubt that DScPA will equal MD in NA.

 

Even in the current system, most PAs feel competent enough to perform medical procedures without the supervision of MDs, and most feel confident enough to practise independently (esp. in the U.S) and want a name change to a 'physician associate' to recommend that they're on a parallel playing field as MDs

 

How do they go through the same amount of education?

 

Physician = 4 years medical school + 2-6 years of residency

 

Physician Assistant = 2 years medical school.

[PAstudent]

PAs are not MDs. An MD is an MD a PA is a PA. The main difference being residency training. Yes, a PA with 10 years of experience practicing a particular specialty may have the same knowledge, skills, and competence as the physicians in that field but that's is not the same thing.

 

No PAs I know want independence. Most of us like having physician back-up formalized.

 

PAs do NOT have the same education as a fully licensed physician. The training is similar at the undergraduate level but residency makes a physician while on the job training is what PAs move onto. There is a more consistent product being turned-out of residency programs than what you will find among PAs where experienced, knowledge, and skills vary widely among PAs.

 

 

The name change to Associate has nothing to do with competing with MDs. The reason for the name change is that the job of a PA is to practice medicine with negotiated autonomy within a physician supervisory arrangement (this does not mean the MD needs to be standing over the PA, just like staff physicians don't stand over residents all the time).

 

Assistant is simply not a good descriptive of what we are/do and it is misleading to the public and to physicians. Many USA programs already call themselves physician associate (Yale for example: http://medicine.yale.edu/pa/index.aspx ) and it was one of the original names of the profession.

 

What is worthwhile: bridging programs for experienced PAs to become MDs.

 

so who here thinks a PA will eventually be considered to be equal to MD?

 

i think it's only a matter of time that PAs demand for independence will be accepted politically and a parallel system of medical education will grow.

 

In the US it's more prevalent with the formation of a DScPA degrees to bring PAs on an equal playing field as MDs

 

Since PAs are educated on the medical model and basically go through the same education as an MD,

 

20~30 years down the road, with increasing political pressure, it's no doubt that DScPA will equal MD in NA.

 

Even in the current system, most PAs feel competent enough to perform medical procedures without the supervision of MDs, and most feel confident enough to practise independently (esp. in the U.S) and want a name change to a 'physician associate' to recommend that they're on a parallel playing field as MDs

[PAstudent]

What's the point of having 2 degrees that are essentially equivalent? A PA will never be the same as an MD. There are lots of discrepancies between programs and specialization available to MD grads (surgery etc.) isn't available as a PA.

I do agree that associate is a better term, since PA's are extremely knowledgeable and often take the place of doctors in many areas throughout the country already - they shouldn't be thought of as assistants but rather partners. I definitely think there is room for both in our healthcare system, and that the two should work as complimentary to one another rather than competing for the same work!!

 

 

Well said, Robinre.

[jerkoutnow2]

What's the point of having 2 degrees that are essentially equivalent? A PA will never be the same as an MD. There are lots of discrepancies between programs and specialization available to MD grads (surgery etc.) isn't available as a PA.

I do agree that associate is a better term, since PA's are extremely knowledgeable and often take the place of doctors in many areas throughout the country already - they shouldn't be thought of as assistants but rather partners. I definitely think there is room for both in our healthcare system, and that the two should work as complimentary to one another rather than competing for the same work!!

 

what you're saying is basically lip-service

 

everyone can say all the different health care professions 'compliment' each other but if you ask them how, then it's another question.

 

It's easier to distinguish between an MD/OT/PT and their work but an MD/PA is very difficult when the PA profession matures and there are 20~30 year veterans who's been practising for a long time. What's to say that a 20~30 year veteran PA can't be independent and be equivalent to an MD right out of school?

 

It's a matter of time until PAs develop own residencies, clinics, hospitals as the # grows -- see what's going on in the states with PA residencies, NP residencies in surgery, radiology, internal medicine oncology etc

[PAstudent]

A PA with 20-30 years of experience in a specialty should know more than a new grad MD starting residency. If they don't, something ain't right.

 

There are PA residencies in the USA and several PA owned clinics but you must have a supervisory agreement. PAs are autonomous, NOT independent. There is a big difference.

 

 

It's easier to distinguish between an MD/OT/PT and their work but an MD/PA is very difficult when the PA profession matures and there are 20~30 year veterans who's been practising for a long time. What's to say that a 20~30 year veteran PA can't be independent and be equivalent to an MD right out of school?

 

It's a matter of time until PAs develop own residencies, clinics, hospitals as the # grows -- see what's going on in the states with PA residencies, NP residencies in surgery, radiology, internal medicine oncology etc

[jerkoutnow2]

A PA with 20-30 years of experience in a specialty should know more than a new grad MD starting residency. If they don't, something ain't right.

 

There are PA residencies in the USA and several PA owned clinics but you must have a supervisory agreement. PAs are autonomous, NOT independent. There is a big difference.

 

yeah but will they need a supervisory agreement 20~30 years down the road?

 

will the PAs think they need a supervisor when they've been doing it for 20~30 years?

 

absolutely not, and that will lead into politics and as i mentioned before it'll create a parallel education system for medicine

[Legume]

PAs and NPs =/= doctors. You should go and compete for med school if you were good enough. And pharmacists are just over-paid pill dispensers (you guys know a lot but your profession isn't really needed). A lot of other countries have no such profession as pharmacists and they just hire high school grads or rural workers to dispense in hospitals and people do just fine.

[Mandibular]

PAs and NPs =/= doctors. You should go and compete for med school if you were good enough. And pharmacists are just over-paid pill dispensers (you guys know a lot but your profession isn't really needed). A lot of other countries have no such profession as pharmacists and they just hire high school grads or rural workers to dispense in hospitals and people do just fine.

 

 

:eek:

 

Like where? I interact daily with the hospital pharmacist and I can assure you their services are essential

[PAstudent]

yeah but will they need a supervisory agreement 20~30 years down the road?

 

will the PAs think they need a supervisor when they've been doing it for 20~30 years?

 

absolutely not, and that will lead into politics and as i mentioned before it'll create a parallel education system for medicine

 

 

Legally, PAs still need it. The difference will be they will have a greater level of autonomy.

[jerkstore]

I assume you're comparing them to FPs?

 

They ain't never gonna know as much as a specialist does in a given area.

[PAstudent]

I assume you're comparing them to FPs?

 

They ain't never gonna know as much as a specialist does in a given area.

 

There are specialist PAs who have a great deal of autonomy after 20 years in that specialty. I know one guy, a neurology PA who sub specializes in chronic headache. Owns his own clinic. This is in the USA.

[Legume]

:eek:

 

Like where? I interact daily with the hospital pharmacist and I can assure you their services are essential

 

China, India, etc etc. the lifespan of Chinese population is the same as the US and their hospitals hire high school grads to dispense meds, works just fine. Hospital/clinical pharmacists can be quite useful but I don't know what those guys in department stores are doing (probably where 90% of pharmacists work). The cream is already pre-packaged, they squeeze it out and repackage it in another tube and charge you $12 dispensing fee. Like thanks Eisenstein.

 

If they removed pharmacy as a profession in North America, the savings produced can probably increase med school admissions and doctor positions by 25%, so the smart pharmacy kids can just become doctors instead so they don't have to waste their intelligence in a community pharmacy counting pills for rest of their lives.

[futureGP]

China, India, etc etc. the lifespan of Chinese population is the same as the US and their hospitals hire high school grads to dispense meds, works just fine. Hospital/clinical pharmacists can be quite useful but I don't know what those guys in department stores are doing (probably where 90% of pharmacists work). The cream is already pre-packaged, they squeeze it out and repackage it in another tube and charge you $12 dispensing fee. Like thanks Eisenstein.

 

If they removed pharmacy as a profession in North America, the savings produced can probably increase med school admissions and doctor positions by 25%, so the smart pharmacy kids can just become doctors instead so they don't have to waste their intelligence in a community pharmacy counting pills for rest of their lives.

 

i agree,

 

i still have no idea what pharmacists do except that they give medicines out... like really... can some pharmacists enlighten us?... like really?

[jerkstore]

i agree,

 

i still have no idea what pharmacists do except that they give medicines out... like really... can some pharmacists enlighten us?... like really?

 

 

But seriously, their supposed value is in that they know drug interactions. Some old lady with a heart problem has to know if she can take claritin for her allergies, etc.

 

We know pharm techs do all the dispensing, because clearly the pharmacists are too busy for that.

 

Semi-related video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jx1RkmRt3gA

[Mandibular]

 

But seriously, their supposed value is in that they know drug interactions. Some old lady with a heart problem has to know if she can take claritin for her allergies, etc.

 

We know pharm techs do all the dispensing, because clearly the pharmacists are too busy for that.

 

Semi-related video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jx1RkmRt3gA

 

 

 

yeah but why cant computer programs just show if theres an interacton or not?

Think about an automated system that dispatches meds automatically. when theres an interaction, then the pharmacist comes and checks. this way, you eliminate the tech and require less pharmacists

 

[jerkstore]

yeah but why cant computer programs just show if theres an interacton or not?

Think about an automated system that dispatches meds automatically. when theres an interaction, then the pharmacist comes and checks. this way, you eliminate the tech and require less pharmacists

 

 

protip: they can.

[futureGP]

protip: they can.

 

epocrates

 

10 charities

[jerkstore]

and honestly how many potentially dangerous drugs are people allowed to get over the counter (thus without the doctor knowing) anyway? Allergy meds, some mild painkillers, muscle relaxants...?

[Legume]

Pharmacy entering class sizes are almost as big as medicine, and these ppl come out counting pills for 80-110 grand a year. My dog at home can do their job better. Such a waste of manpower and societal resources.

[jerkstore]

Pharmacy entering class sizes are almost as big as medicine, and these ppl come out counting pills for 80-110 grand a year. My dog at home can do their job better. Such a waste of manpower and societal resources.

 

Yeah it's not the way forward.

 

But should Canada be the first to do away with them?

[Legume]

Yeah it's not the way forward.

 

But should Canada be the first to do away with them?

 

I dream about that possibility all the time but I can't picture it ever happening here in Canada. But if I ever become a big-time policy maker, pharmacists better watch out.

[jerkoutnow2]

Legally, PAs still need it. The difference will be they will have a greater level of autonomy.

 

okay this thread got distracted but back to the original statement.

 

Currently, PAs are legally bound to have an MD supervisor. That's no mystery. What I am saying is in the future this may change. With PAs receiving increasing autonomy and being competent 20~30 years down the road, they won't be happy with splitting bills with MDs or requiring their supervision when they feel like they fully deserve independence.

 

This is a slippery slope whether you disagree or not. PAs will eventually demand more independence in practice and in regulation that eventually they'll demand a separate college, separate professional designation and equivalent treatment with MDs. Just look at NPs south of the border.

 

It's human nature. Why would you want to get paid for <100% of your work when you can (and will have competence after 10~30 yrs of practice) get paid for 100%?

 

PA--> MD track is a good one, though its got its own set of problems

[regular]

As an ex-pharmacist, now doing doing my residency in anesthesia, I have to say many of you have wrong ideas about pharmacy and a false sense in your own superiority.

 

Med students get a bare minimum of pharmacology teaching in school and learning on the job as a resident is not enough. I just hope most of you won't become the pompous asses that I encountered a lot when trying to correct physicians on their prescribing choices.

 

Pharmacists provide a valuable service to patients and often are the front-line for initial health care for minor ailments. Secondly, they emphasize things to patients that most docs would rarely think to tell their patients (ie. where to store drugs, which to take with food or not etc)