Radiologist work load

[Legume]

Thread removed

[Lactic Folly]

Highly variable depending on practice type/setting.

[Legume]

I just saw a radiologist at my hospital do a 26 hour shift (0 rest) on a Saturday/Sunday. If that's the future of radiology I'd rather go into family and make 450k on 40 hour work weeks, tyvm. (see my thread in the family forum).

[Legume]

If radiologists cannot make 500k+ on 40 hour weeks I almost see no point in doing it. You spend 4 more years training (5 year residency + fellowship) which made you miss out on 2 million dollars of income as a GP, and then your starting salary is probably in the low 300s. Then you have to take call and have to deal with hospital bs (any doc from any department can come bug you at any time and distract you from reading).

[Lactic Folly]

Interestingly, there are many threads in a similar vein on auntminnie, except the field extolled is hospitalist medicine instead of family practice.

 

To each their own (and get some firsthand exposure and talk to a cross section of people in the field before deciding on a specialty). Every field has upsides and downsides, so it's important to know yourself well and what is tolerable for your personality. It doesn't take much reading of the Medical Post to gain a sense of the challenges that primary care physicians face in their own right.

[Legume]

Interestingly, there are many threads in a similar vein on auntminnie, except the field extolled is hospitalist medicine instead of family practice.

 

To each their own (and get some firsthand exposure and talk to a cross section of people in the field before deciding on a specialty). Every field has upsides and downsides, so it's important to know yourself well and what is tolerable for your personality. It doesn't take much reading of the Medical Post to gain a sense of the challenges that primary care physicians face in their own right.

 

Good points. One should definitely see a cross-section of people before making any decisions/judgements.

 

From what I see, with the emergence of massive teleradiology in the states, many radiologists get worked like Chinese assembly line workers these days (http://www.vrad.com, check out their intro videos.. each radiologist sits in a little cubicle and are expected to chew through 150-200+ studies a day). And the fact that radiologists are willing to work in those environments means that there are even worse options than that (hospital work/academia anyone?). Many (most?) radiologists take calls now in Canada which they never used to do in the 90s and early 00s. Hospitals now have 2, 4, 6 CT scanners spinning 24/7 with the same number of staff as before. There are ever more cross-sectional images in CT/MRI studies and you are liable for smaller and smaller lesions (0.5cm lesions which become cancerous years down the road can be fair game).

 

You can make still a very strong argument to become a radiologist vs primary care physician in the states because PCs down there make less than nurse practitioners (170 vs 180k). People down there don't go see their GP twice a month like people in Canada because it isn't free. GPs have such an advantage in Canada in that they never get a shortage of patients. You see as many as you want and can mentally tolerate, and there will always be demand from small towns to big cities. Some older patients come see you 3x a month and they are just living gold mines.

 

GP incomes has been increasing in many Canadian provinces and there have been many new incentives in recent years. I can't see them getting cut anytime soon.

 

Radiology/optho/other subspecialty surgeries are going to feel the pain before GPs get it.

[Lactic Folly]

Not to fuel the stereotype of a cushy specialty, nor to say that this type of career is the most desirable, but a key attraction of those teleradiology companies is the ability to work from any location (including one's home).

 

Imaging is an increasingly integral component to emergent and inpatient care after hours, and as such being on call is expected and part of the expansion of the field over time. If the demand has grown as you say, that should be reassuring for those seeking to enter the specialty.

 

Again, all fields are subject to some measure of change and uncertainty, and after a certain point, $ and lifestyle do not compensate for lack of job satisfaction, as the paths of those who have left otherwise successful careers to retrain in a new field attest.

[Legume]

The increase in demand has resulted in increased numbers of images. There remain the same number of radiologists (and same number of radiology spots), and they now work more and more hours every year. It would be Ok if the pay has been increasing proportionally. But to my best understanding not only has radiologists' average pay not increase, it has actually been dropping over the past few years. That should be very concerning for any medical student thinking about this field. With the rates of inflation between 2-4%, even a stagnant salary means a 2-4% pay cut every year.

 

- More cuts are coming radiology's way as we speak.

 

In terms of job satisfaction, I'd dare say 70% of med students who are serious about radiology are so because they are scared of the workload in IM/surgery, yet still want to be a 'respected specialist'. They are as $$/lifestyle oriented as family/psyc people. If they keep increasing the call frequency, daily work load, fellowship requirements, you'll start seeing radiology residents transferring out. You can disagree with me but people are who they are, and I'm just making an observation (not judging anybody here).

[Legume]

I'm not even going to argue with you man. Can you tell me with a straight face that most radiologists aren't working 60 hours a week now with at least 1-2 call shifts, and that the starting salary for rad is more than 350k?

[Legume]

And I didn't say primary care isn't safe from cuts. I said they have been getting a raise for the past few years and it's likely to continue in the near future. They may very well see some cuts in the future, but the specialties lined up for the guillotine right now are optho and rad (optho's income could be slashed back down to a gen surg's income at the pen stroke of a suit in Ottawa). I think none of us would mind hearing about a mass suicide of ophthalmologists, though.

[rmorelan]

I'm not even going to argue with you man. Can you tell me with a straight face that most radiologists aren't working 60 hours a week now with at least 1-2 call shifts, and that the starting salary for rad is more than 350k?

 

ahh they aren't at my centre.

 

Call is more like once in every two weeks (well unless you are IR) to start with.

[tooty]

I'm not even going to argue with you man. Can you tell me with a straight face that most radiologists aren't working 60 hours a week now with at least 1-2 call shifts, and that the starting salary for rad is more than 350k?

 

if what you're posting is accurate it has to be the worst deal a canadian radiologist can take.

 

what stage of training at you at? i'm going to guess 3rd year med student. have you done any electives outside your major city?

[rmorelan]

if what you're posting is accurate it has to be the worst deal a canadian radiologist can take.

 

what stage of training at you at? i'm going to guess 3rd year med student. have you done any electives outside your major city?

 

Yeah I mean as a radiologist it isn't like you have to build up your practise or anything. If you are in most types of private practise there is no call. If you are at a large centre you are put in the call rotation like the rest of the time. If you are at a small community centre maybe(?) there is some coverage but anything serious would be moved to a major care centre anyway (ED can interpret any CXR overnight and often do even at major centres - that is a skill most doctors should have anyway.

[cheech10]

You mean: working 60 hours a week with 2-3 call shifts per month, and the starting salary for rad is more than 500k, right? That's a lot closer to reality.

[rmorelan]

I think Chopra found PM101.

 

 

missing the reference

[Legume]

You mean: working 60 hours a week with 2-3 call shifts per month, and the starting salary for rad is more than 500k, right? That's a lot closer to reality.

 

2-3 call shifts a month means that there are 10-15 radiologists in your group (there needs to be a staff on call every night). Unless you are at a big center I don't see many hospitals having more than a few radiologists.

 

And I wish the starting salary for rads is more than 500k man, I really do. http://www.fin.gov.on.ca/en/publications/salarydisclosure/2011/hospit11.html

Seems like a lot of people that's been in the business for a long time are doing up 300-500k. That's Ontario too, BC and other provinces are gonna be lower. Numbers don't lie.

 

-Legume

[Legume]

Found BC's public sector info>> low 300s. http://www.vancouversun.com/business/public-sector-salaries/index.html

[Lactic Folly]

I think Chopra found PM101.

Yup. The Canadian spin is new though. I like it.

 

Interestingly, there are many threads in a similar vein on auntminnie, except the field extolled is hospitalist medicine instead of family practice.

 

missing the reference

See my above post #5.

 

Yeah I mean as a radiologist it isn't like you have to build up your practise or anything. If you are in most types of private practise there is no call. If you are at a large centre you are put in the call rotation like the rest of the time. If you are at a small community centre maybe(?) there is some coverage but anything serious would be moved to a major care centre anyway (ED can interpret any CXR overnight and often do even at major centres - that is a skill most doctors should have anyway.

 

No call for outpatient only clinics, sure - but I have been surprised at the prevalence of CT scanners in smaller community hospitals. Often patients are scanned in the periphery and then transferred to our teaching hospital in the middle of the night. That entails someone being available to approve/protocol the scan and provide a preliminary report. Of course, there are other models for call other than 1 in x where x = number of people in your group, such as pooling resources with other nearby groups, and that lightens the schedule.

 

I'm not sure what the backup is for plain film interpretation, but I have on occasion gotten phone calls from ER docs in the periphery asking for a second opinion on radiographs (which I have had to politely redirect to whoever is covering radiology after hours at their site).

 

And I wish the starting salary for rads is more than 500k man, I really do.

Agree that cheech's numbers for starting associate are significantly much more than anything I have heard. Would be interested to know the basis, if any.

[cheech10]

My numbers are from a relative that started as an associate this past year. In a larger centre, granted.

 

As for the Ontario numbers linked above, remember that very few radiologists are subject to this reporting, as they are not paid a salary directly by the government, and instead bill fee for service (although they may redistribute this money within the group). You'll notice that almost all the radiologists in that file are from one centre (Sick Kids), and are not generalizable to other/community centres.

[Lactic Folly]

My numbers are from a relative that started as an associate this past year. In a larger centre, granted.

Thanks for elaborating. By larger centre, are you implying higher volume? I imagine those 12-hour days are pretty fast-paced.. and/or the group is kind to its new hires

[jerkoutnow2]

missing the reference

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deepak_Chopra

 

Chopra Endocrinologist who found Ayurveda medicine and went on to become Ayurveda advocate (mind-body)

 

Times states that he is the magnet for criticism from people primarily involved in science and medicine

[Moderate]

I'm not even going to argue with you man. Can you tell me with a straight face that most radiologists aren't working 60 hours a week now with at least 1-2 call shifts, and that the starting salary for rad is more than 350k?

 

The OMA puts out a PDF with statistics on average fee for service billings (available through their website after logging in).

 

We can probably put a lot of rumors to rest by looking up "diagnostic radiology". Median annual billing for diagnostic radiologists who billed over 100k: $645,000. Average overhead is 17%.

 

A net income of $535k.

 

Let's not get too excited about FM being a better paid specialty. FM docs had a median of $161k (after overhead).

 

Of course, this doesn't take into account salaried positions.

[Gametime24]

The OMA puts out a PDF with statistics on average fee for service billings (available through their website after logging in).

 

We can probably put a lot of rumors to rest by looking up "diagnostic radiology". Median annual billing for diagnostic radiologists who billed over 100k: $645,000. Average overhead is 17%.

 

A net income of $535k.

 

Let's not get too excited about FM being a better paid specialty. FM docs had a median of $161k (after overhead).

 

Of course, this doesn't take into account salaried positions.

 

Could you post a link? Thanks for the info!

[Moderate]

Could you post a link? Thanks for the info!

 

Sure.

 

https://www.oma.org/Member/Resources/Documents/SelectedStatisticsOnPhysicianBillingsAndHumanResources.pdf

[bnface]

Sure.

 

https://www.oma.org/Member/Resources/Documents/SelectedStatisticsOnPhysicianBillingsAndHumanResources.pdf

 

I wonder how family medicine would compare if you removed the army of part-timers (preganant docs, nursing mothers, people-men and women-who don't want to work that hard, etc) from the average. I would wager the median earnings would go up substantially. From admittedly anecdotal experience, family medicine has a lot more of these types than most specialties.

 

Just a thought...