DFlint Posted December 13, 2012 Report Share Posted December 13, 2012 Hello, I read a really interesting post a while back on SDN about how, despite the anecdotal evidence to the contrary, medical school admissions are actually fairly easy to predict and if a certain number of qualifiers (MCAT, ECs, Research, GPA) are met, admittance to at least one American school is practically guaranteed. This made me wonder, does the same hold true in Canada? While there will obviously never be an exact guarantee, would the listed criteria also guarantee admittance to any medical school in Canada? I've always thought that Canadian admissions are more stringent than American admissions due to the lower number of Canadian Medical schools. Hopefully this thread is useful, I lurk mostly and have an acute fear of clogging up the forum. The quote is below, and comes from a poster of the name LizzyM: There really is nothing random about medical admissions: Take an average to heavy load each term and earn an excellent gpa. Do exceptionally well on the MCAT Be memorable in a good way so that you get strong letters of recommendation from people who can give specific examples of how you stand out as a student, investigator, employee, volunteer, etc. Medicine's foundation is scientific inquiry. Get a better understanding of how scientific progress is made by being involved in research for at least 10 weeks of full time or a year of part-time work (look at the MSAR for the proportion of students at each school that have research experience, it is very high). Schools that are reserach powerhouses are most interested in students who might be interested in engaging in research during their medical school training and not doing research before matriculation is considered a predictor of choosing to not to do it after matriculation into med school. Medicine is a service profession so demonstrate your willingness to serve others by providing direct service to those in need in your community (ideal) or in places outside of your immediate area (a good adjunct to service in your own geographic area). If you are going to invest 4 years and more than $100,000 in a medical degree, you should have some idea about what to expect in your career: the joys and the sorrows, the aggravations and the frustrations. This usually means spending some time along side physicians as fellow team members (for example, working as an emergency room scribe, interpreter or as an office assistant), shadowing, or long term volunteering in the same room as the physician. How do physicians in various specialties spend there time? What proportion of one's professional time is spent directly with patients vs the amount of time spent on tasks out of the patients' view? How does the physician achieve lifelong learning? What are some of the current models for delivering care and how might those change in the future? Can you see yourself living that life? Medicine is a team endeavor and so it is helpful to demonstrate that you are a team player and someone who can be a contributing member of a group and, ideally, someone who is comfortable taking a leadership role in some endeavors. Finally, it helps to be personable. This means being friendly, respectful, calming, courteous, cheerful, involved in interesting activities outside of school or work and interested in the interests and experiences of others (willing to be listener as well as a speaker in a conversation). There are few perfect candidates but there are more than enough who seem to have at least a good blend of the attributes we seek. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtomSmasher19 Posted December 13, 2012 Report Share Posted December 13, 2012 Canadian admissions are wacky for a number of reasons: emphasis on "soft," poorly-defined characteristics that are impossible to measure, a very low-set bar to rise above in terms of academic achievements (beyond which you get nothing for), corruption (see UBC last year), racism (backdoor seats for natives), xenophobia (IP vs OOP seats), and a massive number of applicants per seat compared to American schools which causes committees to act unprofessionally and capriciously. Things are even worse with CaRMS, so you might as well get used to it. My advice is to avoid the swamp that is Canadian admissions, and just apply to the US with a high MCAT/GPA where you will be guaranteed a seat. This is a good idea for other reasons: the oversaturated specialist job market in Canada, threatened pay cuts, and tight residency competition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nauru Posted December 13, 2012 Report Share Posted December 13, 2012 Link for UBC medical school corruption please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DFlint Posted December 13, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 13, 2012 I realize that corruption, racism, and xenophobia are all interesting (read, flame/arguing) topics, this thread was not meant to address these issues. Also, these issues are just as prevalent if not more so in the United States: - U.S Schools preferentially accept in-state applicants - U.S Schools have different standards for applicants from traditionally underrepresented ethnic groups - I am sure that in the 100+ american schools, you will find at least some racism Therefore, the real question is whether the aforementioned traits would practically guarantee acceptance to a Canadian medical school. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savac Posted December 13, 2012 Report Share Posted December 13, 2012 Therefore, the real question is whether the aforementioned traits would practically guarantee acceptance to a Canadian medical school. No, they would not Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gametime24 Posted December 13, 2012 Report Share Posted December 13, 2012 No, they would not I'm not sure I agree here, I'm from a reasonably small department at a reasonably small school, but all but one of the students I know from our program that applied to med school in Canada were accepted and about half got multiple acceptances. Furthermore, the one that didn't get in didn't have an exceptional MCAT/GPA as the rest have. (She had a 3.82/27). Anyway, all the people I know personally that applied with 3.95+/33+ managed to get into at least one school. They were all pretty involved people overall, but some didn't have any special experiences really, just some summer research, hospital volunteering and small things such as relay for life. My sample size is REALLY small at this point though (5-10 people), after this cycle I will have a much larger size to base off of as I'm graduating and applying this year and know 20-30 people that are applying this year (although only 5-10 have the aforementioned stats, and I expect that all of them will get in somewhere). Fingers crossed though, it would really suck to become one of the anecdotal stories about not getting in haha! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savac Posted December 13, 2012 Report Share Posted December 13, 2012 I'm not sure I agree here, I'm from a reasonably small department at a reasonably small school, but all but one of the students I know from our program that applied to med school in Canada were accepted and about half got multiple acceptances. Furthermore, the one that didn't get in didn't have an exceptional MCAT/GPA as the rest have. (She had a 3.82/27). Anyway, all the people I know personally that applied with 3.95+/33+ managed to get into at least one school. They were all pretty involved people overall, but some didn't have any special experiences really, just some summer research, hospital volunteering and small things such as relay for life. My sample size is REALLY small at this point though (5-10 people), after this cycle I will have a much larger size to base off of as I'm graduating and applying this year and know 20-30 people that are applying this year (although only 5-10 have the aforementioned stats, and I expect that all of them will get in somewhere). Fingers crossed though, it would really suck to become one of the anecdotal stories about not getting in haha! Perhaps I should have elaborated on my point, since I actually agree with what you've said here. What I meant to say was that it is never a guarantee. If an applicant met all of the criteria highlighted in the first post, they will have a very good chance of getting in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DFlint Posted December 13, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 13, 2012 Perhaps I should have elaborated on my point, since I actually agree with what you've said here. What I meant to say was that it is never a guarantee. If an applicant met all of the criteria highlighted in the first post, they will have a very good chance of getting in. I agree with the point that admissions will obviously never be guaranteed, but I wonder what a "very good chance" would be. Would 90% be considered a very good chance? 95%? 97%? Also, I would posit that a majority of the "excellent" applicants in anecdotal stories who are rejected may have actually had a lacking in at least one of these traits (likely compassion or courteousness) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savac Posted December 13, 2012 Report Share Posted December 13, 2012 I agree with the point that admissions will obviously never be guaranteed, but I wonder what a "very good chance" would be. Would 90% be considered a very good chance? 95%? 97%? Also, I would posit that a majority of the "excellent" applicants in anecdotal stories who are rejected may have actually had a lacking in at least one of these traits (likely compassion or courteousness) In my opinion, 3.90+ is the ideal GPA to have a really good chance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simpy Posted December 13, 2012 Report Share Posted December 13, 2012 The problem is that med school admissions is so competitive in Canada that there is no "guarantee" for admissions. There is no set path you can take that will 100% let you in. However, the large majority of the people you describe probably get in on their first attempt with multiple offers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tupacandbiggie Posted December 13, 2012 Report Share Posted December 13, 2012 3.9+ GPA + 33+ MCAT + volunteer and work experience will almost guarantee u a spot. But look at how hard it is to meet ALL of the criteria above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
futureGP Posted December 13, 2012 Report Share Posted December 13, 2012 I agree with the point that admissions will obviously never be guaranteed, but I wonder what a "very good chance" would be. Would 90% be considered a very good chance? 95%? 97%? Also, I would posit that a majority of the "excellent" applicants in anecdotal stories who are rejected may have actually had a lacking in at least one of these traits (likely compassion or courteousness) don't forget, UofT (your dream school) has weird standards different from the rest of the country where MCAT scores above the cut-off doesn't factor in at all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maximus Posted December 13, 2012 Report Share Posted December 13, 2012 From reading people's posts, it seems like everyone makes a big deal about the Canadian admissions process as if it's some kind of Alice in Wonderland situation. They forego common sense. The fact of the matter is that most people with a 3.9+ and 32+ MCAT often get into schools. Forgetting everything else, those two basic numbers put you ahead of a lot of people. I can only assume that people on here like to make a big deal about things beyond what's necessary to make themselves feel better if they don't get in. Common sense, and a lot of empirical evidence, says those two basic numbers will put you in good stead just like those spoiled US applicants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerkoutnow2 Posted December 13, 2012 Report Share Posted December 13, 2012 From reading people's posts, it seems like everyone makes a big deal about the Canadian admissions process as if it's some kind of Alice in Wonderland situation. They forego common sense. The fact of the matter is that most people with a 3.9+ and 32+ MCAT often get into schools. Forgetting everything else, those two basic numbers put you ahead of a lot of people. I can only assume that people on here like to make a big deal about things beyond what's necessary to make themselves feel better if they don't get in. Common sense, and a lot of empirical evidence, says those two basic numbers will put you in good stead just like those spoiled US applicants. The thing is because a lot of people on this forum is from ontario. and in ontario 3.9+ and 32+ is not a guarantee anywhere. in other provinces, 3.9+ and 32+ + IP status is pretty much a guarantee to get in as long as you're not some whacko with a badass social skills. that said it's true that if you're 3.9+ and 32+ and apply broadly, you will get in somewhere by the 1st or 2nd year of applying (with the assumption that you're not just at home studying all the time) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maximus Posted December 13, 2012 Report Share Posted December 13, 2012 The thing is because a lot of people on this forum is from ontario. and in ontario 3.9+ and 32+ is not a guarantee anywhere. in other provinces, 3.9+ and 32+ + IP status is pretty much a guarantee to get in as long as you're not some whacko with a badass social skills. that said it's true that if you're 3.9+ and 32+ and apply broadly, you will get in somewhere by the 1st or 2nd year of applying (with the assumption that you're not just at home studying all the time) Ontario actually has quite a bit of leniency. For example, if you have a 3.9+ at Ottawa (who don't even require an MCAT), you're a good candidate and if you have an upward trend and a 3.9, you're in very good standnig because of the weighting toward later years. Western is another example, where 3.7 for two years and 11 in verbal puts you into the interview stage. That's quite lenient for an interview regardless of the province and if your'e Swoman, your'e even better off. Queens is yet another example of leniency. If your GPA doesn't meet the cutoffs for 4 years, they look at 2 years. U of T has their weighting formula which could be heaven sent for some people. Overall, I'd say Ontario does quite a bit to help out ALL applicants and therefore people shouldn't try to over exaggerate the peculiarity of the med application process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apache Posted December 14, 2012 Report Share Posted December 14, 2012 I agree with everything you said, I wish I could fail years, get hooked and drugs, and get told it's not my problem to worry about others well you're right, but I have PTSD from multiple life and death incidents, suicides, a neurovisual prob with a 20 percent suicide rate, and ADHD... so I'm a minority too...and I like to literally read 2-4 thousand pages of legal prep... might as a well skip half law school after med, eh? I'm not angry, just shocked... at some blind eyes... but I'm like also a minority, YAY! No bad preceptor evals, not even close, 20 shaddowing shifts no one knows about, uh, U of T thinks I'm god, and **** it... I'm a walking encyclopedia, the only reason I want to medicine is to help people, because well, the wya I link information in my head, I'm sorry, money will never be an issue for me in my life, but attacking someones career isn't smart when top national leaders think I'm changing medical practice, top reses want me... and I have all I was refused treatment for brutal brutal ptsd because it was too much detail for someone who's roll it was to listen, have you almost got stabbed by a patient, seen multiple personalities spent a night with the homeless... not for a foundation, to know what it feels like... and honestly... I'm so competitive that I'd like to just libel up a few sentences in a letter... but I'm diplomatic... people come from different parts of life... and I come from a part where I'm the most informationally dense person anyone has ever met... sorry, I had to be, and I had to do things which make conventional studyholic bio students freak, so people wouldn't die, I'm sorry, I obviously chose these random events... something tells me if I was more politically correct I'd have less trouble, but that's less politics... it doesn't matter to me anyways, IU have 200 pages of documentation of insane trauma that'd make a good movie... also dextramethoson supression tests and yohimbe challenge tests, Qeeg... on the 20th conjecture we both know someone's fishing, but if you had to stop someone from getting their power of autorney taken away after being kept psychotic (manic psychosis via snri's and rebound via antipsych w/d) wel, you'd realize... i only want to good, and sometimes doing good means dealing with awful things, and my track record... well, oh god, I'm the most tenacious person you'll ever meet, and thank god I wasn't handed entitlements... because when I was 14 I was scared to talk to girls, now I'd go PC, get an MP spot for 3 years just for a nice job, because I'm so habituated to everything, I can't explain... cronyism is fine with me, because I know I'm good, and I wonder sometimes if anything in life will seem as great when I get it as it use to, cause I'll work until I've mastered it and everything becomes simple again. Canadian admissions are wacky for a number of reasons: emphasis on "soft," poorly-defined characteristics that are impossible to measure, a very low-set bar to rise above in terms of academic achievements (beyond which you get nothing for), corruption (see UBC last year), racism (backdoor seats for natives), xenophobia (IP vs OOP seats), and a massive number of applicants per seat compared to American schools which causes committees to act unprofessionally and capriciously. Things are even worse with CaRMS, so you might as well get used to it. My advice is to avoid the swamp that is Canadian admissions, and just apply to the US with a high MCAT/GPA where you will be guaranteed a seat. This is a good idea for other reasons: the oversaturated specialist job market in Canada, threatened pay cuts, and tight residency competition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtomSmasher19 Posted December 14, 2012 Report Share Posted December 14, 2012 Atom, is this what you are talking about? http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/story/2012/06/01/bc-ubc-medical-school-standards.html Partly. There was a leaked document to do with this story that showed that one accepted applicant had an overall ranking below the cutoff required to get an offer that year, probably because he new somebody that worked there. I'd love to find that document and post it here but I can't seem to find it. Also, there was an applicant who forgot to mail in some papers, and had his father, who was a surgeon who worked at UBC, write a letter demanding they accept his late papers. The comittee ended up taking the papers, despite the strict deadline which was enforced for all other applicants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thehumanmacbook Posted December 14, 2012 Report Share Posted December 14, 2012 http://blogs.vancouversun.com/2012/03/09/competition-for-med-school-spots-means-parents-desperate-to-see-their-kids-get-in-are-trying-everything-but-not-always-succeeding/ I think this is the article you are lookin' for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apache Posted December 14, 2012 Report Share Posted December 14, 2012 I know someone with fam at UBC who went the PhD route cause they liked their field... and they openly talked about how their dad could get them in (they did have like a 3.9, etc., like, I don't even care about that... 3.0 acceptance versus 3.8 waitlist... **** off, and what I wen't through, my Dad, believe me, I'm to good to play mean as in well, I can be civil... but I will never give credit to anything I accomplish to my alma mater, mention them, and I want books out before I'm done the MD... the entitlements we're just one thing, and not only do I love to be the best, and chill, like mess with me, this bad, I love to take it to a new level, nothing's ever enough for me, and it's not competitive, but if someone forces it to be, messing with my fam life... I get pushed to freaky level... on top of the jokes I make not to sound arrogant which I know will come true because I don't really live in the same set of social schematics as everyone else... if I didn't want what I want well... I wouldn't be thinking about entitlements now would I. The funny thing is in the end you can't take the risks that transform lives, and not just your own, unless you lose the fear fighting for your life has habituated you too, honestly, like if a bank tried touching me I'd love to go right at them with three counter charges, and yes, I'm better, work twice as long, and use every means at my disposal, I love how people would be embarrassed by being a Quebec MP's poster child for pred lending... you only look embarrassing if you act so,the whole reshaping social schema thing I spose. Plus I read every contract I sign, don't vilate your terms... seriously, the masses make you my sloppy dinner. Partly. There was a leaked document to do with this story that showed that one accepted applicant had an overall ranking below the cutoff required to get an offer that year, probably because he new somebody that worked there. I'd love to find that document and post it here but I can't seem to find it. Also, there was an applicant who forgot to mail in some papers, and had his father, who was a surgeon who worked at UBC, write a letter demanding they accept his late papers. The comittee ended up taking the papers, despite the strict deadline which was enforced for all other applicants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maximus Posted December 14, 2012 Report Share Posted December 14, 2012 I agree with everything you said, I wish I could fail years, get hooked and drugs, and get told it's not my problem to worry about others well you're right, but I have PTSD from multiple life and death incidents, suicides, a neurovisual prob with a 20 percent suicide rate, and ADHD... so I'm a minority too...and I like to literally read 2-4 thousand pages of legal prep... might as a well skip half law school after med, eh? I'm not angry, just shocked... at some blind eyes... but I'm like also a minority, YAY! No bad preceptor evals, not even close, 20 shaddowing shifts no one knows about, uh, U of T thinks I'm god, and **** it... I'm a walking encyclopedia, the only reason I want to medicine is to help people, because well, the wya I link information in my head, I'm sorry, money will never be an issue for me in my life, but attacking someones career isn't smart when top national leaders think I'm changing medical practice, top reses want me... and I have all I was refused treatment for brutal brutal ptsd because it was too much detail for someone who's roll it was to listen, have you almost got stabbed by a patient, seen multiple personalities spent a night with the homeless... not for a foundation, to know what it feels like... and honestly... I'm so competitive that I'd like to just libel up a few sentences in a letter... but I'm diplomatic... people come from different parts of life... and I come from a part where I'm the most informationally dense person anyone has ever met... sorry, I had to be, and I had to do things which make conventional studyholic bio students freak, so people wouldn't die, I'm sorry, I obviously chose these random events... something tells me if I was more politically correct I'd have less trouble, but that's less politics... it doesn't matter to me anyways, IU have 200 pages of documentation of insane trauma that'd make a good movie... also dextramethoson supression tests and yohimbe challenge tests, Qeeg... on the 20th conjecture we both know someone's fishing, but if you had to stop someone from getting their power of autorney taken away after being kept psychotic (manic psychosis via snri's and rebound via antipsych w/d) wel, you'd realize... i only want to good, and sometimes doing good means dealing with awful things, and my track record... well, oh god, I'm the most tenacious person you'll ever meet, and thank god I wasn't handed entitlements... because when I was 14 I was scared to talk to girls, now I'd go PC, get an MP spot for 3 years just for a nice job, because I'm so habituated to everything, I can't explain... cronyism is fine with me, because I know I'm good, and I wonder sometimes if anything in life will seem as great when I get it as it use to, cause I'll work until I've mastered it and everything becomes simple again. Do you ever listen to yourself? All your posts are self absorbed rants about how crazy your life is. No one gives a damn about you or your special situations. You come across as an insecure lunatic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maximus Posted December 14, 2012 Report Share Posted December 14, 2012 My apologies to the rest of the forum, but it had to be said. He derails threads with his nonsensical rants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UofTkid Posted December 15, 2012 Report Share Posted December 15, 2012 Do you ever listen to yourself? All your posts are self absorbed rants about how crazy your life is. No one gives a damn about you or your special situations. You come across as an insecure lunatic. gotta agree to this. ^^ everytime I scroll down a topic, see a long-a** post, I already know who the writer will be before looking at their ID. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
axialpac Posted December 15, 2012 Report Share Posted December 15, 2012 Do you ever listen to yourself? All your posts are self absorbed rants about how crazy your life is. No one gives a damn about you or your special situations. You come across as an insecure lunatic. That's quite harsh. How exactly are his posts affecting you? You don't like them? Don't read them--simple as that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bordeaux Posted December 15, 2012 Report Share Posted December 15, 2012 Oh thank god. I thought it was just me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maximus Posted December 15, 2012 Report Share Posted December 15, 2012 That's quite harsh. How exactly are his posts affecting you? You don't like them? Don't read them--simple as that. That's very liberal of you, but self righteous arrogance angers me for principled reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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