Should I consider doing a seocnd degree?

[xenox2]

I graduated from UBC Microbiology 2 years ago and so far I have applied to UBC med 3 times, interviewed first time but no interview 2nd and 3rd. I am currently applying to HKU and CUHK since I have residency in Hong Kong so I thought I'd give it a shot, but I'm not sure about my chances since they have very different selection criteria compare to Canadian schools. I'm currently working full time (biotech research) and planning to retake my MCAT in the summer, which I will spend the next 6 months studying for. (I only studied for ~3 weeks in my previous attempts)

 

So my question is, if HKU/CUHK doesn't work out, what are my options? Should I be looking at a second degree to try and pull up my GPA? I considered doing a masters but after reading through this forum it seems that the consensus is a MSc won't help very much in my situation. I am happy with my biotech job now but ultimately my goal is medicine and I don't want to be wasting more time here.

 

Year 1--------- 82% - 38 credits

Year 2--------- 80.8% - 33 credits

Year 3--------- 76.8% - 15 credits (co-op)

Year 4/5------- 89.5% - 45 credits

cGPA---------- 83.7%

 

MCAT#1 31M (11b, 9v, 11p)

MCAT#2 31P (11b, 9v, 11p)

 

St john ambulance first aid 2.5 years >450hrs

NSERC biotech co-op 2 x 8 months

Sport club Exec 4 years

Summer camp leader 1 month ~100hrs

Public health mission trip ~2 weeks

Hospital visitor 60hrs, this was a while back

4 months full time immunology research, 2months volunteer 2 months paid, no pub

Various small volunteer events

 

2 years biotech research based employment (current)

1 year tutoring part time

[Head Squeeze]

I graduated from UBC Microbiology 2 years ago and so far I have applied to UBC med 3 times, interviewed first time but no interview 2nd and 3rd. I am currently applying to HKU and CUHK since I have residency in Hong Kong so I thought I'd give it a shot, but I'm not sure about my chances since they have very different selection criteria compare to Canadian schools. I'm currently working full time (biotech research) and planning to retake my MCAT in the summer, which I will spend the next 6 months studying for. (I only studied for ~3 weeks in my previous attempts)

 

So my question is, if HKU/CUHK doesn't work out, what are my options? Should I be looking at a second degree to try and pull up my GPA? I considered doing a masters but after reading through this forum it seems that the consensus is a MSc won't help very much in my situation. I am happy with my biotech job now but ultimately my goal is medicine and I don't want to be wasting more time here.

 

Year 1--------- 82% - 38 credits

Year 2--------- 80.8% - 33 credits

Year 3--------- 76.8% - 15 credits (co-op)

Year 4/5------- 89.5% - 45 credits

cGPA---------- 83.7%

 

MCAT#1 31M (11b, 9v, 11p)

MCAT#2 31P (11b, 9v, 11p)

 

St john ambulance first aid 2.5 years >450hrs

NSERC biotech co-op 2 x 8 months

Sport club Exec 4 years

Summer camp leader 1 month ~100hrs

Public health mission trip ~2 weeks

Hospital visitor 60hrs, this was a while back

4 months full time immunology research, 2months volunteer 2 months paid, no pub

Various small volunteer events

 

2 years biotech research based employment (current)

1 year tutoring part time

 

Have you considered US schools?

[Quantum]

I'm not sure what UBC's policies are on second degrees but do the math and see if it makes sense to do another year or two to raise your GPA x-amount of points. See how much potential is there and weigh it against the cons (money, time, etc..). If you can pull your MCAT up a little bit (particularly VR), applying OOP could also be workable with a second degree. Look around in the Non-Trad forum and see what options you have.

 

http://premed101.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47067

[futureGP]

I graduated from UBC Microbiology 2 years ago and so far I have applied to UBC med 3 times, interviewed first time but no interview 2nd and 3rd. I am currently applying to HKU and CUHK since I have residency in Hong Kong so I thought I'd give it a shot, but I'm not sure about my chances since they have very different selection criteria compare to Canadian schools. I'm currently working full time (biotech research) and planning to retake my MCAT in the summer, which I will spend the next 6 months studying for. (I only studied for ~3 weeks in my previous attempts)

 

So my question is, if HKU/CUHK doesn't work out, what are my options? Should I be looking at a second degree to try and pull up my GPA? I considered doing a masters but after reading through this forum it seems that the consensus is a MSc won't help very much in my situation. I am happy with my biotech job now but ultimately my goal is medicine and I don't want to be wasting more time here.

 

Year 1--------- 82% - 38 credits

Year 2--------- 80.8% - 33 credits

Year 3--------- 76.8% - 15 credits (co-op)

Year 4/5------- 89.5% - 45 credits

cGPA---------- 83.7%

 

MCAT#1 31M (11b, 9v, 11p)

MCAT#2 31P (11b, 9v, 11p)

 

St john ambulance first aid 2.5 years >450hrs

NSERC biotech co-op 2 x 8 months

Sport club Exec 4 years

Summer camp leader 1 month ~100hrs

Public health mission trip ~2 weeks

Hospital visitor 60hrs, this was a while back

4 months full time immunology research, 2months volunteer 2 months paid, no pub

Various small volunteer events

 

2 years biotech research based employment (current)

1 year tutoring part time

 

that sucks man

 

ur GPA doesn't seem low at all :S idk why u didn get interviews at UBC

 

maybe its the competition? :S

[xenox2]

Cost is the main reason I don't want to consider US schools unless I'm really out of options.

 

I know my NAQ is on the low side, I tried adding a few more volunteering but my NAQ actually went down this year... the competition is getting kind of ridiculous at UBC, which is why I am thinking of ways to improve my AQ. There is only so much volunteering I can do when I'm working full time...

 

Would a masters degree help in my case? I know it is generally not recommended to do a masters as a GPA boost, but like futureGP said, my GPA is not low to the point where I don't have a chance at all. A masters degree may also be useful for a backup career if all else fail

[ditde]

Hi xenox,

 

I know you made this thread to have some of your questions answered, but I was wondering if I could trouble you with some questions of my own about Hong Kong schools?

 

First of all, you mentioned that they have a different selection criteria, do you mind elaborating on this point?

 

Would a 3.75 - 3.77 GPA get me an interview at either HKU or CU?

 

Does it matter that I'm not a degree holder?

 

Do medical schools require references? Obviously it doesn't hurt to have them but I'm finding it difficult to get to know my professors in such a big school. I may end up asking the professor I did research with in the summer, the doctor that I shadow and one of my high school teachers.

 

Is there any difference between what the medical schools of HKU and CU look for as far as Chinese proficiency goes? I've read that CU requires applicants to be able to read and write, but I've also read that they don't really care anymore...

 

My command of cantonese is shaky at best, though I can have a proper conversation in a casual situation. I don't doubt that it's good enough to get me through the interview process and medical school. However, if it comes to it, I am worried that it will hinder my abilities as a doctor when I'm actually in a hospital setting. Can anyone shed some light on this matter?

 

Any answers you can give me will be very much appreciated.

[xenox2]

Hi ditde,

 

Medical school in Hong Kong is actually starts out as an undergrad program which takes 6 years to complete, followed by 1 year of internship before you are officially licensed. A lot of their applicants apply straight out of high school following very specific HK education stream and examinations (JUPAS System).

 

If you don't have residency in HK, your chances would be very slim with a 3.75-3.77. With HK residency, you would be applying in the "Non-Jupas" applicant pool. Non-Jupas students generally make up ~40% of the class but they do not have a seat limit so as long as you qualify, they will take you.

 

They usually look for GPA around 3.8 (or top 10% of class depending on grading scale of your school), but they do not disclose specifics regarding GPA cutoff, MCAT stats or EC requirements. (which is why this is kind of a shot in the dark for me) Very few Non-Jupas applicants get accepted without a degree. What I do know is that they care a lot about what school you come from, they tend to select applicants who come from prestigious universities, this is especially true for CUHK.

 

They require 1 academic reference to fill out a "referee report" which has a simple checklist and a few questions, but you can choose to have them send in a letter instead as well.

 

Interviews are mostly done in English, classes are also in English. I heard that at the end of the interview they will ask you to translate a few sentence into Cantonese to make sure you can speak Cantonese, this is really just to make sure you will be able to communicate with patients in Cantonese so I think you will be fine.

[Economist]

You should've been eligible for adjusted GPA no?

 

What was your NAQ score if you don't mind sharing?

I got an interview at UBC with average not too much higher than yours. And my list of EC's aren't that much better than yours (they are focusing on different stuff though).

 

If you have ~ 120 credits then I think another year at least will do you good. Take easy electives and do more volunteer for a year. Majority of my NAQ are less than a year long (with two exceptions) and my avg is around yours so you can definitely make a difference in just one year...

[xenox2]

For some reason I only got a 24.2 for my NAQ...I'm not sure if it's because of the wording or because some of my activities are from a while ago, but I'm a few points below the interview cut-off. I guess they don't care about employment history very much even if it's research based?

 

I am actively looking for more volunteer now though, it's tough when I'm working full time, trying to study for MCAT and already committing a chunk of time to St John Ambulance.

 

My main concern is that I actually added quite a few hours to some of my activities but my NAQ went down from the previous year, so I'm trying to find another way to increase my chances, would a masters be a good idea? I'm open to other Canadian schools, just don't want to waste more time standing still.

[Economist]

For some reason I only got a 24.2 for my NAQ...I'm not sure if it's because of the wording or because some of my activities are from a while ago, but I'm a few points below the interview cut-off. I guess they don't care about employment history very much even if it's research based?

 

I am actively looking for more volunteer now though, it's tough when I'm working full time, trying to study for MCAT and already committing a chunk of time to St John Ambulance.

 

My main concern is that I actually added quite a few hours to some of my activities but my NAQ went down from the previous year, so I'm trying to find another way to increase my chances, would a masters be a good idea? I'm open to other Canadian schools, just don't want to waste more time standing still.

 

I'm sure they care about employment history.

If you're willing to do a Masters, I would rather go in for an unclassified studies and spend a year doing EASY EASY electives and bring up your GPA as much as possible. That means you'd be quitting your full-time work so you should have more time for EC's. Really I would do this for a year since one year out of your life isn't too big of a deal, especially for an investment for your future...

 

I'd maybe try focusing on developing your EC's in non-research related things. Although my list of EC's may not seem impressing individually (all less than 1 yr besides my work experience as cashier) they are very different and not traditional.

[xenox2]

I heard UBC doesn't like unclassified studies GPA boosting though?

I remember seeing on the FAQs "only a small portion of applicants who take unclassified studies to improve their AQ are accepted"

 

I guess my options to improve AQ are:

 

1) take 2 years to do a masters, I will miss 1 application cycle but will be less risky, at least I'll have a masters after 2 years even if I still don't get in.

the down side is that some (most?) schools don't count masters GPA even if I get a 4.0...how much would a masters add to my application in terms of AQ?

 

2) 1 year unclassified studies, may have a shot at Western/Queens/Macmaster after but UBC doesn't like it, and if I still don't get in, I'm back to square one?

 

3) second undergrad?? I'm not sure how this work or how long it takes (3 years?) but like unclassified studies, this seems like a risky move

 

Am I analyzing the options correctly?

[Economist]

One of the posters at UBC forum said he e-mailed the adcoms and they said they look at it the same way. They just didn't want to give people the false hope b/c extra year doesn't make a huge difference to their average.

 

Also 2nd degree would be the safest bet IMO b/c they look at it the same as any other year. And you don't have to stay for all 4 years.

[ditde]

Hi ditde,

 

Medical school in Hong Kong is actually starts out as an undergrad program which takes 6 years to complete, followed by 1 year of internship before you are officially licensed. A lot of their applicants apply straight out of high school following very specific HK education stream and examinations (JUPAS System).

 

If you don't have residency in HK, your chances would be very slim with a 3.75-3.77. With HK residency, you would be applying in the "Non-Jupas" applicant pool. Non-Jupas students generally make up ~40% of the class but they do not have a seat limit so as long as you qualify, they will take you.

 

They usually look for GPA around 3.8 (or top 10% of class depending on grading scale of your school), but they do not disclose specifics regarding GPA cutoff, MCAT stats or EC requirements. (which is why this is kind of a shot in the dark for me) Very few Non-Jupas applicants get accepted without a degree. What I do know is that they care a lot about what school you come from, they tend to select applicants who come from prestigious universities, this is especially true for CUHK.

 

They require 1 academic reference to fill out a "referee report" which has a simple checklist and a few questions, but you can choose to have them send in a letter instead as well.

 

Interviews are mostly done in English, classes are also in English. I heard that at the end of the interview they will ask you to translate a few sentence into Cantonese to make sure you can speak Cantonese, this is really just to make sure you will be able to communicate with patients in Cantonese so I think you will be fine.

 

Hi xenox, thank you so much for your answers.

[xenox2]

I'm not familiar with the idea of a 2nd undergrad degree, so forgive my ignorance but is it possible to finish a 2nd undergrad in 2 years? Say I go for another B.Sc major, does that mean all my 1st and 2nd year courses can transfer and I start as a 3rd year?

 

Would I be able to still apply for med 1 year into my 2nd degree?

 

It looks like application deadline just passed for general admission to UBC though I wonder if it's still possible to start a 2nd degree in September

[ditde]

I don't know what the conversion is for those UBC percentages, but your extracurriculars are strong.

 

My understanding is that you can finish a 2nd undergrad in less time because you would already have credits for a lot of the courses. If it's your GPA that's lacking (I have no idea if it is), I would definitely do a second undergrad and aim for 100% in EVERYTHING.

[ditde]

My friend at HKU told me that CUHK definitely does not require the MCAT. He knows 2 people who graduated from McGill (my school) who have since been accepted into CUHK without MCAT scores.

[G.I.Geoff]

I heard UBC doesn't like unclassified studies GPA boosting though?

I remember seeing on the FAQs "only a small portion of applicants who take unclassified studies to improve their AQ are accepted"

 

I guess my options to improve AQ are:

 

1) take 2 years to do a masters, I will miss 1 application cycle but will be less risky, at least I'll have a masters after 2 years even if I still don't get in.

the down side is that some (most?) schools don't count masters GPA even if I get a 4.0...how much would a masters add to my application in terms of AQ?

 

2) 1 year unclassified studies, may have a shot at Western/Queens/Macmaster after but UBC doesn't like it, and if I still don't get in, I'm back to square one?

 

3) second undergrad?? I'm not sure how this work or how long it takes (3 years?) but like unclassified studies, this seems like a risky move

 

Am I analyzing the options correctly?

 

I'm currently completing a second bachelor's to boost my GPA.

 

1) A Masters will only help you if the medschool adds a significant boost. NOSM for examples gives a huge 0.2 to your GPA. McMaster gives you a slap in the face by adding a meagre 0.01 for Masters, and 0.02 for PhD.

 

2) Again, an extra year of rando classes will only help if the medschool looks at rando classes. UofT and Queens look at all your full-time years, and not degrees per se. Queens even calculates 2 different GPA, one based on ALL classes, and one of classes from the last TWO YEARS, and they the best of the two.

 

3) I think this might be your best bet if you're not sure what to do. In my situation, I have a BSc, an MSc, but my BSc GPA is 3.58 (OMSAS grading table). So after working in research for two years I went back to do 1 year, and complete a 3-year general BA. I can complete it within a year because of my first BSc (same school, it helps with transferring credits). I'm currently holding a 3.98 GPA. I will be applying at NOSM again next year and will be able to use my new GPA, because they look at degrees, and not number of years.

[Exocytosis]

A small correction - MacMaster doesn't bump up your GPA for having a grad degree, it gets added to your pre-interview score.

 

You get scored out of 100. 96% is split between GPA/VR/CASPer. You get an additional 1% for a Masters, and 4% for PhD. Still not super great, but not quite a slap in the face either.

[G.I.Geoff]

A small correction - MacMaster doesn't bump up your GPA for having a grad degree, it gets added to your pre-interview score.

 

You get scored out of 100. 96% is split between GPA/VR/CASPer. You get an additional 1% for a Masters, and 4% for PhD. Still not super great, but not quite a slap in the face either.

 

Ah, did not know that specification. Although I still consider 4% for 4-5 dedicated years of your life, when your undergrad GPA is worth so much to your application, a slap in the face.

 

Just saying

[simpy]

I'm not familiar with the idea of a 2nd undergrad degree, so forgive my ignorance but is it possible to finish a 2nd undergrad in 2 years? Say I go for another B.Sc major, does that mean all my 1st and 2nd year courses can transfer and I start as a 3rd year?

 

yes

 

Would I be able to still apply for med 1 year into my 2nd degree?

 

yes

 

I think one area of your application you will need to work hard on is your ECs. Your ECs seem impressive, but they would be impressive for a 3rd year university student (yes, there are 3rd year university students with your ECs minus the job and one co-op term). You are two years out of university which is why they're a bit lacking.

 

Also, I don't see much in there with respect to leadership, initiative or communication.

 

To increase your chances I think you need to do something big on an extracurricular level. By doing that, doing at least two years of a full time second undergrad, and by scoring higher on the MCAT (ideally 11 in each section), you will have a much higher chance at UBC as well as a decent chance at Queen's/Western/Ottawa.

[xenox2]

Thank you all for your input, I really appreciate it.

 

I think what I'm going to do though is stick with my job for now and devote all of my spare time to EC, I agree with simpy that my EC is lacking and there may be more room for improvement in my NAQ than my AQ.

 

I think if I pull off 15-20 hours/week of meaningful EC, that should land me an interview at UBC within the next 2 cycles, and that would be easier (and a lot cheaper) than trying to improve AQ with a 2nd UG or masters given where I stand with my GPA.

 

This would mean Queens/Western are out of the question but if I can get my NAQ up, that should open up a few other options as well.

[KeVan]

This is so sad. You would make a fine applicant in almost any other fields, but you choose Medicine. Honestly, imho, switch out. And by switch out, either go to dentistry or entirely away from the sciences. With your grades and your 'EC', you can apply for a well reputable internship at a bank or something.

 

Spending extra time on EC for the sake of getting into a school is stupid. You will soon realize your time is much more valuable than a medical school application.

 

Well, if money is not something you wish for, and if you feel you have all the time in the world because you're 'young' (with parents who can adequately support you and themselves -- very important), then best of luck to you.

[G.I.Geoff]

This is so sad. You would make a fine applicant in almost any other fields, but you choose Medicine. Honestly, imho, switch out. And by switch out, either go to dentistry or entirely away from the sciences. With your grades and your 'EC', you can apply for a well reputable internship at a bank or something.

 

Spending extra time on EC for the sake of getting into a school is stupid. You will soon realize your time is much more valuable than a medical school application.

 

Well, if money is not something you wish for, and if you feel you have all the time in the world because you're 'young' (with parents who can adequately support you and themselves -- very important), then best of luck to you.

 

NOTE: I apologize for the lengthly post but many things need to be sed here.

 

KeVan, I find it utterly horrible that people like you have this attitude towards medschool. Especially on these forums. We are all hear to help each other, not to discourage people and tell them to quit.

 

I myself have been trying to get into medschool for about 6 years now and have applied 4 times. You might think that with that track record I'd never get in, but now I know what I need to do to get in. I got my first interview last year, after applying 3 times. I was put on the waiting for NOSM and ended up 8th. This was after my FIRST medschool interview, and with a GPA of 3.58.

 

Everything I've done in my past has been geared towards getting into medschool, and I regret nothing. I am 26 years old young, and have a BSc, an MSc, over 5 years worth of working research experience in biochemistry, and am currently working on my second bachelor's. In my BA I am taking Foreign languages and Music, and I'm loving every minute of it. I have had the opportunity to travel and study in Japan. I have been practicing kendo for over 4 years. My volunteering includes tutoring highschool students, helping out with junior level softball, and working a crisis line. I'm not trying to boast but instead am trying to show that through my goal of getting into medical school I have done some incredible things and have met incredible people. All of these things make me a better candidate for medical school, in my own way.

 

We should focus not on what someone HAS DONE, but what someone CAN DO to get into medschool. xenox2, you seem to have a realistic idea of what you now need to do to get into UBC. If practicing medicine in Canada is your goal, then I suggest looking into all other schools and seeing where you might "fit". Look at the requirements, what their mandate is, what type of students they are looking for. For me, it's the Northern Ontario School of medicine. I am from Northern Ontario and my MSc gives me a significant boost to my application. Most importantly, they look at GPA as a whole for a degree, even if I completed that degree in one year of four. This means that realistically, my best chances of getting into medschool are at NOSM, and those chances will be VERY high, once I apply next year with a GPA of over 3.95. Again, not trying to boast, but trying to give a specific example of how a unique situation can make you a perfect candidate for a given school.

 

Few, ok I'm done

[xenox2]

Well I think there are two types of premeds, those who think of medicine as just another career option, and those of us who just can't see ourselves doing anything other than being a doctor.

 

I'll admit I didn't have the greatest undergrad run to be a competitive med applicant (yet), but I know I possess the intelligence and dedication to take on medical school, and other traits that would make me a great doctor.

 

I know I can apply to a lot of other professional fields now and probably have a pretty successful career, but I also know I won't be using my talents and potential to the fullest and I will end up regretting it in 10 years.

 

It's not like I'm abandoning my job for the sake of doing EC, I'm just willing to sacrifice all my spare time doing EC instead of watching TV or something. I have a great career in biotech research and I have been supporting my family for the past 2 years, and I have siblings who can support the family if I do end up in medical school.

 

So no KeVan, don't tell me spending time on EC for the sake of medical school is stupid. Perhaps you are the one who should be questioning yourself why you are here on this forum.