LeBronto2019 Posted February 16, 2013 Report Share Posted February 16, 2013 I recently took a Chem exam and although its 15% of the total mark, I got a 35%...its curved and the averages are usually mid to high 70s. I knew the material but I rushed and misread about 1/4 of the questions. I have a 3.8 last year (now in 2nd) and have 3 As and 2 A-'s last semester with roughly the same grades this semester minus this chem. I worry that if i get a C or lower, itll ruin my GPA. Should I take a W or just try to pull myself out of this situation and hope I dont fail? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
future_doc Posted February 16, 2013 Report Share Posted February 16, 2013 An 80 will still give you a B, which won't cripple your GPA. Moreover, you say you made stupid mistakes - these won't be repeated. It would seem from what you say the likelihood of failure does not exist and of a C is exceedingly low. Moreover, you lose the weighted formula at U/T. Consider all the factors carefully, and then make an informed decision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exocytosis Posted February 16, 2013 Report Share Posted February 16, 2013 You have some advantages if you keep a full courseload consistently throughout school. U of T will drop 1.0 credit per year if you do, exactly for reasons like this - sometimes good students do poorly in a particular class. So in that case your marked would be dropped. The real issue is your cGPA, but even that shouldn't be dropped too hard by one class. I'm assuming at your school A = 3.9 and A- = 3.7? If you got 4 A-s this semester, and a 60 in chem, you'd have a GPA somewhere between 3.5 and 3.6 for this year. Not great but not terrible and possible to recover from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
axialpac Posted February 16, 2013 Report Share Posted February 16, 2013 Drop the course. Don't tailor your application for just one school (UofT). Even if you kept the course for UofT's sake there's no guarantee you'll actually ever get in there. Obviously you won't be able to use this year for UWO but they only need two years anyways, and you can just use first and third year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeBronto2019 Posted February 16, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2013 Yeah, but should I take a risk just for UofT? Other Canadian schools dont do that and neither do US schools. Im in Calgary so ours is a A=4.0 and A-=3.7. Sucks how a couple questions on a tiny midterm could drop GPA by like 0.3-0.4. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
axialpac Posted February 16, 2013 Report Share Posted February 16, 2013 Yeah, but should I take a risk just for UofT? Other Canadian schools dont do that and neither do US schools. Im in Calgary so ours is a A=4.0 and A-=3.7. Sucks how a couple questions on a tiny midterm could drop GPA by like 0.3-0.4. You're IP for two schools (neither of which require a full-course load every year, except UofA which requires just one year) vs. one OOP school . . . not to mention that UofT uses the OMSAS school, which would actually give you a lower cGPA since As = 3.9 there. You can still get into UofT -- they don't penalize you if you don't have five classes every single semester. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest emersong Posted February 16, 2013 Report Share Posted February 16, 2013 I wouldn't worry about it (withdrawal, that is). The exam was only worth 15% of ONE CLASS, so provided you've been doing well and getting high marks on the rest of the assignments/tests, you probably wouldn't be coming out with too horrible of a grade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theboywho2 Posted February 16, 2013 Report Share Posted February 16, 2013 Dude Don't worry, just make sure not to screw up again. Last semester I got a 54 on a physics test that was worth 25% my grade, I ended up with an -A in the class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
souljaboy Posted February 19, 2013 Report Share Posted February 19, 2013 You should not go to a university that bellcurves. Getting a high 70 when you actually deserve a 35% is pretty disgusting. I seriously don't understand this view. Bell curves in large classes is entirely justified and ensure fairness between classes so that getting a harsh prof doesn't mean you're going to fail. If one class gets a prof that writes an impossible exam while another prof teaching the same course writes a normal exam why should the people in the first class deserve the low mark? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jochi1543 Posted February 19, 2013 Report Share Posted February 19, 2013 You're not gonna rebound from a 35%. It's unlikely that you suddenly understand and memorize the material better further along in the course if the material becomes more complex. So drop it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmorelan Posted February 19, 2013 Report Share Posted February 19, 2013 I seriously don't understand this view. Bell curves in large classes is entirely justified and ensure fairness between classes so that getting a harsh prof doesn't mean you're going to fail. If one class gets a prof that writes an impossible exam while another prof teaching the same course writes a normal exam why should the people in the first class deserve the low mark? They shouldn't - although more importantly both profs should be writing fair tests, and if they are not then should be consequences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NutritionRunner Posted February 19, 2013 Report Share Posted February 19, 2013 Technically two sections of the same course should write the same exam for fairness. I agree with rmorelan, writing fair exams is much more important than finding ways to adjust for poorly written exams afterwards through mark adjustment. For my large, first-year courses at Guelph, all sections of the course wrote the same exam, regardless of whose section you were in, precisely so that things would be fair. I always found it puzzling that they didn't do the same at other universities - it seemed unfair if you had a "tough" prof! Of course, that also meant that for my organic chemistry class, where I had the "good" prof who was able to explain things really well, we had people from other sections coming into our class and sitting on the stairs in the aisles, as they didn't have to go to "their" section, due to the common exams. Also, I've never, ever heard of marks being curved at Guelph. It sucks when you have a required course and a clueless prof, like my machine language programming course where the entire class failed the midterm. There was no mark adjustment in that case, but such is life. On the other hand, last semester, when there was an extremely high class average going into the final for my physiology course (somewhere in the mid 80s, as the two midterms were really easy), they just made the final exam really tough. And that worked - resulted in a nice, normal distribution of marks, with the class average around 70, and the top marks in the class around 97-98. I came out with a 97, and was very happy with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmorelan Posted February 19, 2013 Report Share Posted February 19, 2013 For my large, first-year courses at Guelph, all sections of the course wrote the same exam, regardless of whose section you were in, precisely so that things would be fair. I always found it puzzling that they didn't do the same at other universities - it seemed unfair if you had a "tough" prof! Of course, that also meant that for my organic chemistry class, where I had the "good" prof who was able to explain things really well, we had people from other sections coming into our class and sitting on the stairs in the aisles, as they didn't have to go to "their" section, due to the common exams. Also, I've never, ever heard of marks being curved at Guelph. It sucks when you have a required course and a clueless prof, like my machine language programming course where the entire class failed the midterm. There was no mark adjustment in that case, but such is life. On the other hand, last semester, when there was an extremely high class average going into the final for my physiology course (somewhere in the mid 80s, as the two midterms were really easy), they just made the final exam really tough. And that worked - resulted in a nice, normal distribution of marks, with the class average around 70, and the top marks in the class around 97-98. I came out with a 97, and was very happy with that. I had a few of my computer science courses curved back in the day - although the effect after was just to again get the prof in line. The don't like doing it - first off classes do not follow a normal (bell) distribution so the curving is very artificial. Having all sessions of a course doing the same exam also gives insight to where a lecture might be a weaker teacher - as a prof I would want that information. Maybe I suck at explaining concept X. Good to know I would think. Plus why would two profs want to duplicate all that work. Writing exams is hard - why do it twice? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest padag Posted February 19, 2013 Report Share Posted February 19, 2013 Class-wide mark adjustment is bell curving. One scenario you might find justifiable is if the professor made the exam too hard. But to that I say, why would a professor make an exam harder than normal so that they have to adjust marks? Profs aren't stupid, they know when the exam they wrote is too hard for the majority of the class. They only bump marks up class-wide so that they don't get put on probation for screwing up. Perhaps we should not argue too much about this but rather focus on doctaK's original question. I think you should withdraw if you are having considerable difficulties in academics. You only live once for your GPA. Your argument maintains a paradox. You claim that profs never make mistakes because they can always gauge the appropriate level of difficulty. You go on to claim that mark-adjustments are only made to cover their asses. Why would they make a hard test in the first place if they had to adjust later on? The only logical conclusion to your points is that they did it accidentally, not that they did it on purpose. You literally asked "why would a professor make an exam harder than normal so that they have to adjust marks?" ...Because they messed up. You seem to also be against the notion that every class must have an average between 60-69 at the course end. What is wrong with this? It ensures that the course are at a uniform, university difficulty. It's the most sensible thing in the world, but think you have some kind of complex with this issue. In any case, you argue with a myopic view rather than a logical one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tacrolimus Posted February 19, 2013 Report Share Posted February 19, 2013 I love the bell curve (most of the time) because if your prof sucks, or his exams are unfair, it balances out. Though it sucks when you get an A (3.9 OMSAS) with a grade of 94% in a class. EDIT: OP, if I was in your position, I'd withdraw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
undergrad519 Posted February 19, 2013 Report Share Posted February 19, 2013 Down in their hearts (or brains) profs know the difficulty of their exams. Having taught a course for 10+ years I certainly do hope they know the difference between a hard and easy exam. Profs screw up and cover themselves with mark adjustments when they don't take the proper amount of time to review and examine their exam before giving it to the class. Good profs write exams every year that come to a 70-75 average because they're experienced and aren't making random questions that don't test the knowledge or do it in a way such that everyone screws up. I never said that I was against the average of 60-69. In fact I believe that the class average should be around 75 if the professor is teaching effectively. Anything below 70 means that the professor or course syllabus should be changed because not every one is understanding the material to an extent where they can actually use it. In meds if you fail a course you can talk to the dean and get the professor or syllabus changed for the students next year because clearly it wasn't the student that messed up, but the education system. So where doe these great profs with 10+ years of test-creating experience come from? They must have gotten their experience somewhere, and along the line you have to admit that they probably struggled to write fair exams. If someone is a new professor and it's their first or second time teaching a course, I find it hard to fault them if their tests come out too hard and they have to curve the marks, as long as they learn from it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest padag Posted February 19, 2013 Report Share Posted February 19, 2013 Down in their hearts (or brains) profs know the difficulty of their exams. Having taught a course for 10+ years I certainly do hope they know the difference between a hard and easy exam. Profs screw up and cover themselves with mark adjustments when they don't take the proper amount of time to review and examine their exam before giving it to the class. Good profs write exams every year that come to a 70-75 average because they're experienced and aren't making random questions that don't test the knowledge or do it in a way such that everyone screws up. I never said that I was against the average of 60-69. In fact I believe that the class average should be around 75 if the professor is teaching effectively. Anything below 70 means that the professor or course syllabus should be changed because not every one is understanding the material to an extent where they can actually use it. In meds if you fail a course you can talk to the dean and get the professor or syllabus changed for the students next year because clearly it wasn't the student that messed up, but the education system. You realize that not every prof has been teaching a given course for 10+ years, right? One of my intro chem profs, my intro biology prof, and orgo chem prof have all been teaching their courses for less than 5 years. Are they not allowed to make judgment errors either? Also, good profs do not make the average 70-75, because that is considered to be too easy. University standard is that the final class average should be between a 60-69. Any resultant deviating average can and is often encouraged to be adjusted. I hope you understand that if a prof makes a test with an average of 70-75 (and goes unadjusted), the system is broken because it is unfair to others who had to deal with proper university standards. Lastly, you make the false assumption that a low class average must mean that the test was unfair and did not test the material that was taught. This is a comical belief. Take a grade 7 class learning BEDMAS. I could make a simple question like (2)(1)+(1)=?. Conversely, I could give them the quadratic formula and watch how only the three brightest kids get the answer correct in a class of 30. Both questions apply BEDMAS perfectly, yet one is significantly harder than the other. You can extrapolate this to any university course. In conclusion: your viewpoint is not very convincing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmorelan Posted February 19, 2013 Report Share Posted February 19, 2013 You realize that not every prof has been teaching a given course for 10+ years, right? One of my intro chem profs, my intro biology prof, and orgo chem prof have all been teaching their courses for less than 5 years. Are they not allowed to make judgment errors either? Also, good profs do not make the average 70-75, because that is considered to be too easy. University standard is that the final class average should be between a 60-69. Any resultant deviating average can and is often encouraged to be adjusted. I hope you understand that if a prof makes a test with an average of 70-75 (and goes unadjusted), the system is broken because it is unfair to others who had to deal with proper university standards. Lastly, you make the false assumption that a low class average must mean that the test was unfair and did not test the material that was taught. This is a comical belief. Take a grade 7 class learning BEDMAS. I could make a simple question like (2)(1)+(1)=?. Conversely, I could give them the quadratic formula and watch how only the three brightest kids get the answer correct in a class of 30. Both questions apply BEDMAS perfectly, yet one is significantly harder than the other. You can extrapolate this to any university course. In conclusion: your viewpoint is not very convincing. Only trouble with that is if you do happen to have an extremely good professor - one that just is amazing and teaches everyone to completely master the material and motivates them to study hard, and you have another good but average teacher you end up in a testing situation where two groups of students that actually know the material at different levels are graded differently - only is curved down and another is not. In a perfect world where somehow tests are fairly standardized a professor should be actually proud their students got 75% and be praised- those are the sorts of teachers we all want. Curving works both ways unfortunately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Der Kaiser Posted February 19, 2013 Report Share Posted February 19, 2013 Only trouble with that is if you do happen to have an extremely good professor - one that just is amazing and teaches everyone to completely master the material and motivates them to study hard, and you have another good but average teacher you end up in a testing situation where two groups of students that actually know the material at different levels are graded differently - only is curved down and another is not. In a perfect world where somehow tests are fairly standardized a professor should be actually proud their students got 75% and be praised- those are the sorts of teachers we all want. Curving works both ways unfortunately. Curving seems to be pretty rare at Canadian unviersities. I know at my school it doesn't really occur. Still, averages do not tend to exceed about 72%. Experienced profs know which tests will result in ~60 and which tests will result in a ~70 and they can recognize anomalies (and accept them). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apache Posted February 21, 2013 Report Share Posted February 21, 2013 i had a seminar with a 3.7 or 3.8 average... prof had been teaching for 20 years, just exceptional class... then again this was a 400 level with like 20 students... lowest mark was a b plus... dept didn't care... written midterm, 2 presentations, experimental design, 2 discussion classes, essay, written final... oh my... in higher level courses this is more often the case... i worked for one prof who wrote a midterm the day before, had to drastically upscale marks to avoid complaints... person didnt really like teaching, lol... so there's a bit of both Down in their hearts (or brains) profs know the difficulty of their exams. Having taught a course for 10+ years I certainly do hope they know the difference between a hard and easy exam. Profs screw up and cover themselves with mark adjustments when they don't take the proper amount of time to review and examine their exam before giving it to the class. Good profs write exams every year that come to a 70-75 average because they're experienced and aren't making random questions that don't test the knowledge or do it in a way such that everyone screws up. I never said that I was against the average of 60-69. In fact I believe that the class average should be around 75 if the professor is teaching effectively. Anything below 70 means that the professor or course syllabus should be changed because not every one is understanding the material to an extent where they can actually use it. In meds if you fail a course you can talk to the dean and get the professor or syllabus changed for the students next year because clearly it wasn't the student that messed up, but the education system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apache Posted February 21, 2013 Report Share Posted February 21, 2013 well... sample size is important... lets just say i've done a lot of stats... i had a course with 15 people maybe... ok, me and clinical psych chick and the prof have a 3 way discussion every day for 3 hours... like 6 f's... bunch of a pluses... a couple d'ish marks the rest were a-'s... 25 page papers on self deception are fun ****... ditto with 10 essay question, week ahead, and 3 major essay q's... you get two chosen for you on the spot, day of exam, one your choice... i think one major essay q was eliminated and you got to choose between the remaining two... yeah... and the short essays are 4 pages... so write 20 pages or so in 2 hours... serious... yeah, you can write that fast, it's called not stopping writing for the entire two hours going as fast as you can... ****... i did an english class with a 1.8 average and i got a 4.0... another girl got an a plus, and someone else an a minus... im pretty sure the rest were c's and d's and f's... lol... curving works for 300 person ochem classes... but even then, i had a first year prof who used the same notes tests as a class with 300 and we were only 50, and our average was way higher... tests almost identical... and we got lower marks... the prof apologized... so sometimes curving is retarded... the prof was just better... the only reason i signed up for 8 am... just taught better, and with small sample... we should have been mixed into the big class since we had a ten percent higher average... generalizations always fails just so you know You realize that not every prof has been teaching a given course for 10+ years, right? One of my intro chem profs, my intro biology prof, and orgo chem prof have all been teaching their courses for less than 5 years. Are they not allowed to make judgment errors either? Also, good profs do not make the average 70-75, because that is considered to be too easy. University standard is that the final class average should be between a 60-69. Any resultant deviating average can and is often encouraged to be adjusted. I hope you understand that if a prof makes a test with an average of 70-75 (and goes unadjusted), the system is broken because it is unfair to others who had to deal with proper university standards. Lastly, you make the false assumption that a low class average must mean that the test was unfair and did not test the material that was taught. This is a comical belief. Take a grade 7 class learning BEDMAS. I could make a simple question like (2)(1)+(1)=?. Conversely, I could give them the quadratic formula and watch how only the three brightest kids get the answer correct in a class of 30. Both questions apply BEDMAS perfectly, yet one is significantly harder than the other. You can extrapolate this to any university course. In conclusion: your viewpoint is not very convincing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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