Skylerate2 Posted February 21, 2013 Report Share Posted February 21, 2013 The MCAT as you all know have four sections; The Biological Sciences, The Physical Sciences, The Verbal Reasoning and the Writing Sample. While the Writing Sample is soon to be defunct, that leaves the BS, PS and VR sections left. Now, if most medical schools only care about one of these, the VR why are the rest of the sections necessary? I mean neither BS/PS has any relevance to medicine whatsoever, not to mention the scores in those subjects are only a function of how much you study so they only serve to waste time. I mean, research has already been conducted on this topic and has concluded that only the Verbal Reasoning section is the only predictor of success as a physician, so why all the extra fluff? Also, before anyone says that BS/PS scores display academic ability and willingness to work hard, isn't that what GPA is for? And the knowledge of basic sciences is obtained from fulfilling pre-reqs so as long as you have a high GPA, it means you know the basic sciences. It doesn't make any sense to have these useless things on a medical colleges admissions test as all they do is waste the time of both the AAMC and premeds and serve no purpose past their completion. This time could be better spent honing one's verbal reasoning skills, you know the skills that actually affect your ability to be a good doctor! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmorelan Posted February 21, 2013 Report Share Posted February 21, 2013 I guess I would point out that to start with the entire test is revised for 2015 so at this point we should be probably arguing if that test is likely valid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NutritionRunner Posted February 21, 2013 Report Share Posted February 21, 2013 I guess I would point out that to start with the entire test is revised for 2015 so at this point we should be probably arguing if that test is likely valid +1. They are revising it for a reason! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markov79 Posted February 21, 2013 Report Share Posted February 21, 2013 and i've gotta add that the test is standardized - even if the material of bs and ps is pointless, you're still providing another measure for comparison. and what's wrong with one more? why should we only have gpa to compare, given that gpa also allows for school variability? secondly, when you say ps and bs are only a function of studying, and use that as proof that they're pointless, you sort of contradicted yourself: at the end, you said the aamc should scrap those sections so that people could spend more time honing vr skills. by the way you word it, "honing" is synonymous with "studying". everyone knows vr is different from the science sections. that doesn't mean performance is totally independent of time dedicated to the section, as you yourself said. so, the argument that "anyone can study for ps and bs" can also be said for vr: "anyone can spend more time studying vr and improve." it's not like vr is totally unpredictable. you figure out how to do the section and then do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apache Posted February 21, 2013 Report Share Posted February 21, 2013 i agree, personally i'd administer the lsat, i've taken all three... lsat, dat and mcat... and mcat is most challenging, but, in terms of measuring cognitive skills... the lsat wins hands down... The MCAT as you all know have four sections; The Biological Sciences, The Physical Sciences, The Verbal Reasoning and the Writing Sample. While the Writing Sample is soon to be defunct, that leaves the BS, PS and VR sections left. Now, if most medical schools only care about one of these, the VR why are the rest of the sections necessary? I mean neither BS/PS has any relevance to medicine whatsoever, not to mention the scores in those subjects are only a function of how much you study so they only serve to waste time. I mean, research has already been conducted on this topic and has concluded that only the Verbal Reasoning section is the only predictor of success as a physician, so why all the extra fluff? Also, before anyone says that BS/PS scores display academic ability and willingness to work hard, isn't that what GPA is for? And the knowledge of basic sciences is obtained from fulfilling pre-reqs so as long as you have a high GPA, it means you know the basic sciences. It doesn't make any sense to have these useless things on a medical colleges admissions test as all they do is waste the time of both the AAMC and premeds and serve no purpose past their completion. This time could be better spent honing one's verbal reasoning skills, you know the skills that actually affect your ability to be a good doctor! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skylerate2 Posted February 21, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 21, 2013 I guess I would point out that to start with the entire test is revised for 2015 so at this point we should be probably arguing if that test is likely valid Straight from their website 1) Natural sciences sections of the MCAT2015 exam reflect recent changes in medical education. 2) Addition of the social and behavioral sciences section, Psychological, Social and Biological Foundations of Behavior, recognizes the importance of socio-cultural and behavioral determinants of health and health outcomes. 3)And the new Critical Analysis and Reasoning Skills section reflects the fact that medical schools want well-rounded applicants from a variety of backgrounds. So essentially, their adding a new social and behavioral sciences section that will more likely than not be intro psych/sociology which is essentially useless for medicine. The Natural Sciences section is changing to be slightly more relevant to medicine which is a step in the right direction. And the VR section is simply changing its name and the passages are going to cover different themes which is not really a substantial change. And it's no contest that the test in it's current form is mostly invalid (except for VR). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skylerate2 Posted February 21, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 21, 2013 and i've gotta add that the test is standardized - even if the material of bs and ps is pointless, you're still providing another measure for comparison. and what's wrong with one more? why should we only have gpa to compare, given that gpa also allows for school variability? secondly, when you say ps and bs are only a function of studying, and use that as proof that they're pointless, you sort of contradicted yourself: at the end, you said the aamc should scrap those sections so that people could spend more time honing vr skills. by the way you word it, "honing" is synonymous with "studying". everyone knows vr is different from the science sections. that doesn't mean performance is totally independent of time dedicated to the section, as you yourself said. Honing VR skills is not the same as studying for VR. Studying for VR would be doing and redoing passages ad nauseum while honing one's VR skills would be reading books on esoteric philosophical subjects and complex economic concepts and successfully understanding them, improving one's ability to comprehend complicated ideas. One of these has a use outside of the MCAT, the other doesn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markov79 Posted February 21, 2013 Report Share Posted February 21, 2013 i'd argue that the end is what matters - how you get there doesn't. if you score well on vr, it's because you know how to interpret passages. whether you do that through reading articles or by reviewing your mistakes shouldn't make a difference. or does it? i love playing devil's advocate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skylerate2 Posted February 21, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 21, 2013 i'd argue that the end is what matters - how you get there doesn't. if you score well on vr, it's because you know how to interpret passages. whether you do that through reading articles or by reviewing your mistakes shouldn't make a difference. or does it? i love playing devil's advocate. Regardless of how you do it, a high VR score has been correlated with success as a physician (which is what the MCAT is for, assessing your ability to be able to complete medical school successfully and be a doctor). So if VR is the only thing on the MCAT that has any application, it should be the only thing on the MCAT. PS/BS should be kept to undergraduate tests. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savac Posted February 21, 2013 Report Share Posted February 21, 2013 As long as they're correlated with USMLE performance, the science sections aren't going anywhere Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apache Posted February 21, 2013 Report Share Posted February 21, 2013 makes a huge difference... scoring well is one thing... i can nail a 15 almost 50 percent of the time... eventually when you become so cross disciplinary you see parallels in everything literally, to me everything breaks down to philosophy... synthetic versus analytic science article i posted even... has a lot to do with pedagogy in academia... synthetic people are freaky and are able to make inferences about things you haven't even learned about because of extreme cross-over training... an eminent psycho-pharmacologist called the ampa receptor for depression, in 1991, ketamine... reading his thought process on how knowing the details allows for synthetic conclusions was like wow... first time i so clearly found someone who validated the depth to which i go in things... and reading his contemporaries... inverse agonists... beta-carbolines (i.e. caffeine... inverse agonist to bzd allosteric receptor sites... non specific... lol, no one knows that though... haha... but yeah... reading him and all the other seminal shrinks i'm sure most people who aren't at the top of the field in some capacity really reinforced that line of thinking... like, biochem is important, fundamentals are important, clinically, you can extrapolate so much with an insane depth of knowledge... it's like bipolar... calcium intake... well sodium channel effecting agents seem to help, what about ip3... and now inositol for depression and other affective disorders... map kinase and dopaminergic effects... effects on gaba-b, and reciprocal chloride channel effects on da neurons oh my... it's a huge puzzle... but seriously, i think it takes that kind of thought process to put it together... top down is utilitarian and makes the most of limited time... bottom up makes exponential gains with substantial time investment... but it's not only depth and breadth, it's a way of approaching problems, where you have no a priori conclusions... i'd argue that the end is what matters - how you get there doesn't. if you score well on vr, it's because you know how to interpret passages. whether you do that through reading articles or by reviewing your mistakes shouldn't make a difference. or does it? i love playing devil's advocate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nosuperman Posted February 21, 2013 Report Share Posted February 21, 2013 Straight from their website So essentially, their adding a new social and behavioral sciences section that will more likely than not be intro psych/sociology which is essentially useless for medicine. Except for it being one of the biggest determinants of morbidity, mortality, compliance, epidemiological trending, and diagnosis, you're right, its essentially useless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaronjw Posted February 21, 2013 Report Share Posted February 21, 2013 Except for it being one of the biggest determinants of morbidity, mortality, compliance, epidemiological trending, and diagnosis, you're right, its essentially useless. Shhh. Half the premed clowns here wouldn't have a first clue about how psychological and sociological perspectives translate to health and health care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bangbangbang Posted February 21, 2013 Report Share Posted February 21, 2013 PS and BS are correlated with USMLE performance, meaning the AAMC will never get rid of those sections. I would argue that PS and BS are still testing applicants analytical skills. Many of the answers in BS can be found right in the passage. PS is testing how someone can analyze certain situations and apply quantitative reasoning skills. These are all important cognitive skills that doctors need to have.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apache Posted February 21, 2013 Report Share Posted February 21, 2013 i find both to be true... i don't find neither to be prerequisite in terms of performance across the board of all specialties... i actually struggle a lot with ps... everything else is kinda a joke... which ppl find weird... it's strange to struggle on ps of all things, at least uncommon PS and BS are correlated with USMLE performance, meaning the AAMC will never get rid of those sections. I would argue that PS and BS are still testing applicants analytical skills. Many of the answers in BS can be found right in the passage. PS is testing how someone can analyze certain situations and apply quantitative reasoning skills. These are all important cognitive skills that doctors need to have.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrenchToast Posted February 21, 2013 Report Share Posted February 21, 2013 OP, just curious... have you written the MCAT yet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmorelan Posted February 21, 2013 Report Share Posted February 21, 2013 Regardless of how you do it, a high VR score has been correlated with success as a physician (which is what the MCAT is for, assessing your ability to be able to complete medical school successfully and be a doctor). So if VR is the only thing on the MCAT that has any application, it should be the only thing on the MCAT. PS/BS should be kept to undergraduate tests. only thing is how strong or accurate do you think that correlation is? How did they measure physics skill in the end? On one of their studies it was with a long standardized test (which arguably isn't actually measure skill as a doctor directly, just skill at taking a test). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmorelan Posted February 21, 2013 Report Share Posted February 21, 2013 Except for it being one of the biggest determinants of morbidity, mortality, compliance, epidemiological trending, and diagnosis, you're right, its essentially useless. hehehehe - I love it when people dismiss out of hand a section that all the entire AAMC has determined after exhaustive research is important. I mean you can argue about it (and sometimes quite well) but it is there for an a reason most deans of admission think is very important and in turn filtered that back to the AAMC. Might be worth taking a close look at why Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NutritionRunner Posted February 21, 2013 Report Share Posted February 21, 2013 Shhh. Half the premed clowns here wouldn't have a first clue about how psychological and sociological perspectives translate to health and health care. Which is really sad. I mean, my nutrition education has emphasized the social determinants of health. All of the courses taught by the family relations and applied nutrition faculty, as opposed to the nutritional sciences faculty, have some mention of the social determinants of health in them. I really, really hope that other health professionals learn about them as well. They have such a huge impact on health and well-being. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaronjw Posted February 21, 2013 Report Share Posted February 21, 2013 Far bigger impact than biomedical approaches do yet biomedical gets most of the funding. I agree it us sad. Hope we start changing our perspective sooner than later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apache Posted February 21, 2013 Report Share Posted February 21, 2013 lol, i wish they canned the ps, and subbed this in... honestly, i'd have a real shot at a 44t or something... if i had a good day (14nd the bio and 15nd the vr)... lol, this is so different than 4 years ago... Except for it being one of the biggest determinants of morbidity, mortality, compliance, epidemiological trending, and diagnosis, you're right, its essentially useless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmorelan Posted February 21, 2013 Report Share Posted February 21, 2013 Which is really sad. I mean, my nutrition education has emphasized the social determinants of health. All of the courses taught by the family relations and applied nutrition faculty, as opposed to the nutritional sciences faculty, have some mention of the social determinants of health in them. I really, really hope that other health professionals learn about them as well. They have such a huge impact on health and well-being. oh we learn about them in medicine More I guess we see it in clerkship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmorelan Posted February 21, 2013 Report Share Posted February 21, 2013 oh we learn about them in medicine More I guess we see it in clerkship. although we could stand to learn even more as well I should've added. It is extremely key to health care, and since costs are ballooning definitely needs more attention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savac Posted February 21, 2013 Report Share Posted February 21, 2013 MCAT is a pretty bad test, they should just get rid of it all together. That's not necessarily a bad option, although what would you propose instead? Ultimately they need ways to compare applicants, and a standardized test is arguably the best way to do that. Obviously GPA and ECs are also critical components of the application, but in my opinion so is the MCAT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savac Posted February 21, 2013 Report Share Posted February 21, 2013 Gotta be something else other than GPA and ECS, HIgh school grades ? A lot of European countries actually just do premed straight outta high school Well, there's always QuARMS Honestly I don't think that our highschool grades are very standardized currently, and I wouldn't support using them for med school admissions. I know a lot of people that had either high/low grades in highschool, but then their marks changed in University. I don't think that highschool grades are an appropriate substitute for a standardized test like the MCAT. We should just wait and see what the new test is like in 2015. It might might/surpass your expectations? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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