Should I apply to medical school in the Caribbean?

[troubadour]

I am nearing the end of my third year at U of T. I study Health Studies (public health-ish stuff) and Political Science. With that being said, I have reasonable grounding in the sciences and even more relevant experience to match.

 

I have worked at two hospitals and three universities researching everything from the epidemiology of breast cancer and HIV prevention to nutritional health policy and health policy employed by G8 nations. I am also working with a doctor at a large hospital in Toronto on a bone marrow donor recruitment project who also happens to be the director at a medical school in the Caribbean.

 

My GPA has taken a hit this semester due to my sister-in-law's sudden passing along with her two children. It currently sits at 3.21, last I checked. Might be a 3.2 or 3.22. Not too concerned about that, to be honest.

 

I haven't taken the MCAT, so that's a larger hole in my application. That more or less sums me up as an applicant.

 

----

 

The reason I intend to apply to the Caribbean is two-fold. Firstly, my time at U of T has taught me to disregard prestige when deciding what school to attend. I have never been more miserable in my life. Secondly, my decision to attend a school in the Caribbean is not contingent on my ability to return to Canada as a licensed physician.

 

The only medical school I am considering applying to in Canada is McMaster. I like their approach to education, but I digress...

 

If I were to return to Canada for residency, I would have zero interest in earning the most prestigious placement. I wouldn't even care to work in a major urban area. My dad did his residency in northern Manitoba and it hasn't impacted his ability to practice. He's also an IMG.

 

I just want the ability to start my own practice. That's it. I don't want a nice title. I don't really want to work at a huge hospital. I just want to have a practice and make a difference in my community, whether my community happens to be in Ontario or in the Caribbean.

 

Oh, I also understand doing a residency in the States and then moving back to Canada is also a pretty good way to make it back to Canada. I could be mistaken, but that's what I've heard.

 

Given my desired career path and my qualifications, how should I proceed?

[Mashmetoo]

I am nearing the end of my third year at U of T. I study Health Studies (public health-ish stuff) and Political Science. With that being said, I have reasonable grounding in the sciences and even more relevant experience to match.

 

I have worked at two hospitals and three universities researching everything from the epidemiology of breast cancer and HIV prevention to nutritional health policy and health policy employed by G8 nations. I am also working with a doctor at a large hospital in Toronto on a bone marrow donor recruitment project who also happens to be the director at a medical school in the Caribbean.

 

My GPA has taken a hit this semester due to my sister-in-law's sudden passing along with her two children. It currently sits at 3.21, last I checked. Might be a 3.2 or 3.22. Not too concerned about that, to be honest.

 

I haven't taken the MCAT, so that's a larger hole in my application. That more or less sums me up as an applicant.

 

----

 

The reason I intend to apply to the Caribbean is two-fold. Firstly, my time at U of T has taught me to disregard prestige when deciding what school to attend. I have never been more miserable in my life. Secondly, my decision to attend a school in the Caribbean is not contingent on my ability to return to Canada as a licensed physician.

 

The only medical school I am considering applying to in Canada is McMaster. I like their approach to education, but I digress...

 

If I were to return to Canada for residency, I would have zero interest in earning the most prestigious placement. I wouldn't even care to work in a major urban area. My dad did his residency in northern Manitoba and it hasn't impacted his ability to practice. He's also an IMG.

 

I just want the ability to start my own practice. That's it. I don't want a nice title. I don't really want to work at a huge hospital. I just want to have a practice and make a difference in my community, whether my community happens to be in Ontario or in the Caribbean.

 

Oh, I also understand doing a residency in the States and then moving back to Canada is also a pretty good way to make it back to Canada. I could be mistaken, but that's what I've heard.

 

Given my desired career path and my qualifications, how should I proceed?

 

I think you should do a lot more research regarding being an IMG and look into alternatives to the Carib MD before declaring that you will go to a Caribbean school.

[troubadour]

Never really declared anything other than my interest. I have looked into Atlantic Bridge, Hungary, some DO stuff, Italy, Britain, and Poland.

 

While I do have an Irish citizenship, I don't have much interest in living there permanently.

 

I also don't want to go to Australia, especially after all that I've read.

 

I was just looking for outside opinions on Caribbean medical schools and whether or not the potential for not being able to be a licensed physician in Canada was the only main deterrent.

[Mashmetoo]

Never really declared anything other than my interest. I have looked into Atlantic Bridge, Hungary, some DO stuff, Italy, Britain, and Poland.

 

While I do have an Irish citizenship, I don't have much interest in living there permanently.

 

I also don't want to go to Australia, especially after all that I've read.

 

I was just looking for outside opinions on Caribbean medical schools and whether or not the potential for not being able to be a licensed physician in Canada was the only main deterrent.

 

Italy.. no. Poland - NO. Hungary - heck NO. These are not places you want to go if you are serious about practicing back in Canada. They'll end up as a very expensive and long holiday.

You have Irish citizenship.. you should take full advantage of that. Canadians are reluctant to go to Ireland because of matching issues.. But since you got Irish citizenship, you have no problems.

 

As for the Caribbean.. I have friends who went there, did their 4 full years, didn't match, then went into research/ returned home to Toronto with nothing to show for it. That's the Caribbean. If you are a US citizen, you would be at the bottom of the barrel in terms of residency selection. On average, a US carib MD would apply to over 120-140 spots, to get 10-20 interviews, and hopefully match in one. As a Canadian.. good luck.

[troubadour]

But let's assume the worst for both Ireland and the Caribbean.

 

Let's say in both cases I am unable to match back to Canada. Then the question becomes would I rather live in the Caribbean or Ireland. At that point, doesn't it become a matter of preference?

 

I'm also under the impression, however misguided it may be, that you only need one residency.

 

I have spoken at length with Atlantic Bridge and I've gotten the impression that my acceptance would be contingent on an MCAT score of between 24-26. That being said, I am not sold on living in Ireland. Despite having citizenship and all of my extended family living there, I have little desire to move there permanently. The Caribbean, however, I am much more familiar with...

[Mashmetoo]

But let's assume the worst for both Ireland and the Caribbean.

 

Let's say in both cases I am unable to match back to Canada. Then the question becomes would I rather live in the Caribbean or Ireland. At that point, doesn't it become a matter of preference?

 

lol....................................................

Son, you are not going to practice in the Caribbean. Just as Canadians can't stay in Australia/match after they graduate because they don't have their visa, you can't stay in "the Caribbean" after you graduate from a Carib school.

 

You CAN however match and practice in Ireland if you decide to do so, because you are a citizen there.

[troubadour]

I should have explained my situation a little more clearly. I already have grounds to apply for residency in the Bahamas. In this case, I mean residency in the road to citizenship way...haha. I chose to use the blanket term "Caribbean" because I am aware there is no medical school in the Bahamas (as far as I know).

[Mashmetoo]

I should have explained my situation a little more clearly. I already have grounds to apply for residency in the Bahamas. I chose to use the blanket term "Caribbean" because I am aware there is no medical school in the Bahamas (as far as I know).

 

So you have Canadian citizenship, Irish citizenship, AND grounds to apply for residency in the Bahamas? lol.. wow, that's really something.

 

Well, in that case, you can. Then it becomes an issue of whether you like living in a first world country vs. a third world country.

 

Good luck to you.

[troubadour]

Based on MCAT scores and whatnot, I think my final applications will be sent out to McMaster, St. George's, Saba, Avalon, another medical school that's run by a doctor I know, Trinity, UCD, and Limerick.

 

I just want to get a sense of how my application would compete with the general pool of applicants in all three markets.

 

I'm probably looking at a 3.3 and a 28 MCAT (10-12 Verbal & 8-9 BS, PS). I listed my medical ECs above. I also do other things, but that's like running a newspaper and a drama society...not really science-y.

[leviathan]

There will be no leftover residency spots available for IMGs in the US by I believe 2016. Canada's match rate is maybe 20-30% and those IMG spots may disappear in the near future since we seem to be correcting the physician shortage rapidly. Maybe you can do your residency in the Caribbean - but what country? Will they take a foreign national into their program, from a different country in the Caribbean? SGU, Saba and Avalon etc. do not have residency programs in their countries AFAIK. You would have a lot of research to do.

[PteFabulous]

Given my desired career path and my qualifications, how should I proceed?

 

Write the MCAT. See how you do. If you go pretty good, try applying in the US, and to US DO schools. Also apply to the big 4 Caribbean schools, if you can afford it and don't want to wait to get into a Canadian/US med school then go for it.

 

If you end up at a Caribbean school, just remember that it's a hard road with no guarantee's. US residencies are going to be more difficult to get in upcoming years and there's always the possibility that you may not match anywhere and have to find something else to do with your life.

 

Make sure medicine is what you really want to do with your life first. It's a major decision to go to the Caribbean, and a long and tiring road. If you have any questions, feel free to PM me.

[krd1025]

With 3.2 gpa, I don't think he/she can choose the US route (either MD or DO) even if he gets 32+ on his MCAT. I would definitely choose the Irish schools over Caribbean because as previous posters have mentioned, 1) easier to obtain residency (almost guaranteed in Irish residency due to his citizenship and CaRMS shows that Irish schools have higher match rate than the caribeen schools but they will probably approach to zero in the near future). You can also come back after your residency in Ireland if you get your medical license approved by College of Physicians and Surgeons of Ontario (I'm not sure how easy that is though). Anyway good luck with your application and in my opinion Irish school >>>>> Carribean school with your current situation.

[missmathematics]

Ireland is definitely the way to go given your citizenship! After residency there you can come back to Canada or you can work in Western Europe like the UK, or wherever you want! The world is your oyster.

 

Many Irish students leave for Australia after they complete internship in Ireland. I'm not sure why you don't like that idea, because Australia is a freakin' tropical paradise!

 

The Caribbean is a total fail. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

[krd1025]

Right now, with your stats, you won't be able to get admiited to Irish schools, they're hard to get into compared to other international schools.

[Dina 2013]

With 3.2 gpa, I don't think he/she can choose the US route (either MD or DO) even if he gets 32+ on his MCAT. I would definitely choose the Irish schools over Caribbean because as previous posters have mentioned, 1) easier to obtain residency (almost guaranteed in Irish residency due to his citizenship and CaRMS shows that Irish schools have higher match rate than the caribeen schools but they will probably approach to zero in the near future). You can also come back after your residency in Ireland if you get your medical license approved by College of Physicians and Surgeons of Ontario (I'm not sure how easy that is though). Anyway good luck with your application and in my opinion Irish school >>>>> Carribean school with your current situation.

 

Hi,I'm a Canadian science graduate this year, I'm accepted at Limerick in Ireland and St George in the Caribbean,I'm really torn between both:

-Caribbean still provides better chances in Us

_Could Limerick be a better option for Canada or still a gamble?Chances r so limited in Canada,any thoughts?

[NLengr]

Hi,I'm a Canadian science graduate this year, I'm accepted at Limerick in Ireland and St George in the Caribbean,I'm really torn between both:

-Caribbean still provides better chances in Us

_Could Limerick be a better option for Canada or still a gamble?Chances r so limited in Canada,any thoughts?

 

Chances are will likely become just, if not more limited in the US by the time you graduate.

[jnuts]

Subjectively, Ireland is a much better option for obtaining a Canadian residency based on the IMG classes I've seen at my school.

[Doctore]

Hi Dina, check your private messages

[10wattbulb]

Just some info on Caribbean med schools I previously found and posted in another thread. Expect to have a hard time matching in Canada, though. The Caribbean route should be the very last resort.

 

Admittedly, I don't know much about the Caribbean schools, but I think this is not a good option for you for two reasons:

 

1) While these schools have lower GPA requirements, they are still extremely challenging programs.In Canada the work of selection is front loaded, which is why it's so hard to get in, but nearly impossible to fail out. My understanding is that Caribbean schools have a high attrition rate (50%? Anyone want to jump in here with an actual stat?). Your academic record and year to year trend indicate that you might not be academically prepared for such a program. Because the schools are SO expensive, failing out would be particularly brutal. I know you have said this past year you had some family/anxiety issues (feel you there- PM me if you want about this), but those are things that can come up again and again, so I think you need to get a better academic-EC-anxiety management balance going before you start med school. Basically you want to set yourself up for success and I Don't know if you're there yet.

 

2) It's well known that if you want to practice in Canada, it is extremely difficult to match for a Canadian residency as an international medicine graduate. You can look at the stats on the CARMS website. If you're okay moving to the states for residency,then maybe this doesn't matter as much to you.

 

 

 

Here I do know a little more, I started a second undergrad in a BA program this time around. It was a good choice for me I thought also because of a borderline GPA. I don't know what you specifically want to know- message me your questions.

 

I'm certainly no expert on Carribean schools (never considered, never applied), but I think danisings sums up the issue with Carribean schools very well here. Personally, my big concern would be #2 - residency matching. But another big concern is $$$ - it's very expensive and you've got no guarantee you're going to match/be successful. That being said, if med school is still your big ambition in life and you don't care where you end up practicing, then it could be an option for you. Be careful that you apply to reputable schools where you're likely to receive a residency match in the US, though (don't fall for the scams). Apparently, this is much easier said than done. And based on this informative article (that you should read), "Caribbean medical schools will not reveal how many students enroll as first year students yet fail out and never “make it off the island” for third year rotations. Gauging the quality of the medical education you will receive at a particular Caribbean medical school isn’t easy, but you can get an idea of how successful graduates are in obtaining residency training positions in the United States by considering several factors...." Read the rest of the article to see what the factors are. (http://studentdoctor.net/2011/01/caribbean-medical-schools-what-to-consider/). There's also this article (http://www.medical-school-confidant.com/caribbean-medical-schools.html) on Carribean schools that seems to be good; it also lists 4 apparently 'legitimate' Carribean Med Schools: Ross University School of Medicine, St. George Medical School, American University of the Caribbean, and SABA University School of Medicine. I'm not sure how good this list actually is, though (anyone know?).

 

I just found this article (http://www.medicalschoolsuccess.com/top-caribbean-medical-schools/) that suggests the following:

 

The top Caribbean medical schools from best to last are:

 

St. George Medical School

AUC Medical School

Saba Medical School

Ross Medical School

 

"St. George Medical School is the most expensive, but it maximizes the chance for you to become a doctor. It has the lowest attrition rate and offers the easiest path throughout clinical rotations.

 

AUC is a solid contender. Its tuition is competitive, its attrition rate is low, there shouldn’t be any problems for securing rotational spots, and its class size is comparatively low.

 

The main thing goings on for Saba Medical School is its low tuition and small class size. The attrition rate is atrocious, which would be the main deterrent for attending the school.

 

Ross Medical School doesn’t have any advantages over the other three schools. Its tuition is high, the attrition rate is high, and it has the largest class size. It seems to care about its profits over its students. Do not go here unless you have no other option. Its poor performance has even caught the attention of federal regulators."

 

Disclaimer: I have no clue how accurate the info is, though. By all means, the Carribean route should be your very last option if you absolutely want to be an MD and have no way of becoming one otherwise, even with a second undergrad and a Master's.

[Edict]

Very few Caribbeans manage to get a Canadian residency ever year and they are predominantly from SGU.

 

The US is always an option with SGU which basically means if you do above average (US med student average i.e. 225) on the USMLEs and you graduate with good grades you will match somewhere in the US.

 

With Ireland if you have good USMLEs/MCCEEs and you do well in school you will also match in the US but predominantly in the North East where Irish schools have more influence.

 

Ireland will also give you the chance to match to Canada.

[leviathan]

Very few Caribbeans manage to get a Canadian residency ever year and they are predominantly from SGU.

 

The US is always an option with SGU which basically means if you do above average (US med student average i.e. 225) on the USMLEs and you graduate with good grades you will match somewhere in the US.

 

With Ireland if you have good USMLEs/MCCEEs and you do well in school you will also match in the US but predominantly in the North East where Irish schools have more influence.

 

Ireland will also give you the chance to match to Canada.

 

Saba and SGU have equal number of Canadian matches (Saba had 21 and SGU 20 matches this year), although Saba is a smaller school and may have a higher percent of Canadians matching back home.

 

Ireland may have a higher match in Canada, but the overall match rate anywhere is dismal at some schools.

 

A 225 on the USMLE will probably not get you a match in the US within the next few years. See the relevant threads explaining why.

[Edict]

Saba and SGU have equal number of Canadian matches (Saba had 21 and SGU 20 matches this year), although Saba is a smaller school and may have a higher percent of Canadians matching back home.

 

Ireland may have a higher match in Canada, but the overall match rate anywhere is dismal at some schools.

 

A 225 on the USMLE will probably not get you a match in the US within the next few years. See the relevant threads explaining why.

 

Ok i accept that SGU and Saba have similar matches but i strongly disagree your point about Ireland's overall dismal match rate.

 

Ireland has the common sense and numbers to show "how many students applied vs how many were accepted". Saba and SGU just state the number of matches.

 

SGU accepts thousands of students each year in multiple cycles. The number of Canadians is likely in the hundreds. If SGU had numbers that weren't embarrassing they would publish them, they are a for-profit university. They've clearly made the calculation that publishing those numbers would hurt their future enrollments and thus reduce their profits.

 

If you want to see Ireland's numbers they are all posted on the canadian irish medical student association website.

 

So no, Ireland does not have dismal match rates, they aren't amazing but likely very much better than the Caribbean schools (who clearly skew their statistics (like not showing the number of students who apply vs the number who get in, failing students in huge numbers (tbh i actually don't mind this policy)) to make their school look in the best light possible)

[leviathan]

Ok i accept that SGU and Saba have similar matches but i strongly disagree your point about Ireland's overall dismal match rate.

The rates are published on another thread. Some of the schools had match rates as low as the 60-70% range. Saba is a small school with only 40-50 students per semester. So I know basically everyone that matched this year, or at the very least I woudl have heard of anyone who didn't match (those things don't stay private as long and make it through the grapevine pretty fast). I only know one person who didn't match, so I can guess the match rate is at least 90-95% if not higher.

 

Edit: http://www.saba.edu/saba/images/Forms/2013_Saba%20Residency.pdf

Saba has about 50 people per class, and 3 semesters per year = ~150 students. There are 154 matches listed here. That is pretty good evidence right there to back up what i'm saying, if you don't want to take my own word for it.

 

So no, Ireland does not have dismal match rates, they aren't amazing but likely very much better than the Caribbean schools (who clearly skew their statistics (like not showing the number of students who apply vs the number who get in, failing students in huge numbers (tbh i actually don't mind this policy)) to make their school look in the best light possible)

Again, I can't speak for SGU or other schools. I can only speak for my school, and unless every single person I don't know didn't match, then the school has 95-100% success rate. I'm sure SGU is no worse than Saba, so they likely have similar stats. So that is better, not worse than Irish schools. To be honest I'm sure some of the Irish schools are in the low 60-70% range because many of the students there only apply to Canada, and don't apply to the US, so they end up shooting themselves in the foot.

 

And yes, there is a high attrition rate at our schools. That's a fact of the school accepting a lot of students who aren't cut out to be doctors. Like you I don't think it's a bad thing that they have high standards to make it through the program.