UG school

[justwondering999]

Does the school you attend for your UG matter?

I know med schools say that it does not, but some simple logic dictates that the school you come from absolutely does matter. This has seriously been bugging me for a long time.

 

Anyone willing to weigh in?

[Intrepid86]

Does the school you attend for your UG matter?

I know med schools say that it does not, but some simple logic dictates that the school you come from absolutely does matter. This has seriously been bugging me for a long time.

 

Anyone willing to weigh in?

 

It matters less where you go to school, and more about how well you do. You would rather have a 4.0 GPA from Brock, than a 3.5 from U of T. The reason why you don't see more matriculating med students from Brock and Trent is because most people graduating from high school (including top students) go to larger universities like U of T, Western etc for UG.

[trojjanhorse]

this is only my opinion...

 

Let's say you want to study biology in your undergrad. You may choose UofT, McMaster, and Ryerson. Amongst the 3, McMaster would be tough to get in because they require an average of 90. UofT is a bit lower than that. Ryerson, is a mall, so all you gotta do is step right in. Once you begin your undergraduate career, you will be surrounded with different colleagues. You'll see more competitive students at UofT/McMaster than Ryerson Town Center, which would encourage you to keep up and compete back. This will build an acumen of some sort to work a bit harder and keep on pushing yourself to do better.

 

Now let's say you end up with a 3.8 from UofT/McMaster, and in a different parallel dimension, you end up with a 3.8 from Ryerson (not including their 4.3 scale, just omsas scale). I would put my money on the UofT/McMaster student to score a lot better on the MCAT as that standardized test require vigour.

 

Some of your colleagues will tell you, go to a university that will grant you an easy 3.8+ so that you will look competitive on your application. I strongly DISCOURAGE that view. You want to enter an institution that has a lot of competitive students so you can build stamina and learn to work harder. If you can get a 3.8 in Ryerson in one parallel universe, you can certainly score that at UofT/McMaster.

[Exocytosis]

I suspect they don't bother because really, how would you assess it?

 

Let's assume that Ryerson's biology program is easier than U of T's. Exactly how much easier is it? i.e. what does a 4.0 at Ryerson convert to at U of T? A 3.9? A 3.8? A 3.7789002?

 

Maybe as a tie breaker between two otherwise identical applicants, but otherwise I don't see how they'd do it.

[ralk]

Pretty much every Canadian med school doesn't care which school you attended for undergrad, most explicitly state as such. There may be implicit factors (say an interviewer has a bias to or against one school or another), but those are impossible to predict and likely not consequential in most cases.

 

One school might make it easier to get a high GPA than another, one school might make you slightly more prepared for the MCAT than another, but on the balance these effects are minimal, especially for candidates who know what the expectations for med school are and put in the effort to ensure they meet those expectations.

 

Long story short - go to wherever you think you will get the best education and the most opportunity to do what you'd like to do through your undergrad experience. Fight for the GPA you need, study for the MCAT as much as you need to in order to have confidence going into the test, search high and low for interesting ECs that will give you meaningful experience and develop skills. These can be done at any undergrad school and they are what med schools ultimately care about.

[justwondering999]

Firstly I should have prefaced this by saying that it obviously won't make that big of a difference.

My reasoning is rather simple. You take an entering class from McGill in biology, they had a cut off of 92% or so. Now take one from lets say even western where it's in the low/mid 80's. now you standardize both these classes to have lets say a roughly B+ average. the deflation at McGill is much larger then that of Western in this example.

It seems odd to me that they would then go and compare these grades on an equal playing field.

 

@Trojjan You make perfect sense, and this is one reason why i support standardized testing. the problem lies in the fact that many schools use MCAT scores simply as a cut-off thus eliminating the difference between say a 33 and a 41.

 

@Exo I get what your saying and that's why i posted. It just seems obvious to me that where you go to school for your UG does matter. maybe it's just used in scenarios where they're down to the wire and it's between a Ryerson and UofT grad and they with the UofT grad.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Lastly I would just like to state that I know that it matters for UofT Law school. I have a close friend who works in the admissions office and they have told me that they add to your overall score depending on what institution you are coming from. never heard of anything like this from any other source/school, and certainly never for Medicine so this sparked me to post.

[Intrepid86]

My reasoning is rather simple. You take an entering class from McGill in biology, they had a cut off of 92% or so. Now take one from lets say even western where it's in the low/mid 80's. now you standardize both these classes to have lets say a roughly B+ average. the deflation at McGill is much larger then that of Western in this example.

It seems odd to me that they would then go and compare these grades on an equal playing field.

 

Lastly I would just like to state that I know that it matters for UofT Law school. I have a close friend who works in the admissions office and they have told me that they add to your overall score depending on what institution you are coming from. never heard of anything like this from any other source/school, and certainly never for Medicine so this sparked me to post.

 

Some universities set cutoffs for certain programs, but from an admissions standpoint it makes no difference. Whether you took bio at Ryerson, or Queens it doesn't matter. This isn't a secret, but at the same it's like one simply because it's counter-intuitive. People get sucked in by the "prestige" of a program or university, despite the fact prestige means nothing in Canada. This isn't the same for the U.S. where there is a far greater variation in quality among post secondary institutions.

 

I wouldn't put much stock into your friend's anecdote about U of T law. There's no way the university someone did undergrad at overrides GPA and LSAT as primary consideration.

[Silverwolf1277]

Does the school you attend for your UG matter?

I know med schools say that it does not, but some simple logic dictates that the school you come from absolutely does matter. This has seriously been bugging me for a long time.

 

Anyone willing to weigh in?

 

It doesn't matter for med school directly, but a few things I'd like to point out.

 

The fact that some schools ARE tougher than others is just simple fact and not a myth. I was mildly skeptical about this (I attend UofT) as I had no direct evidence for it. This was until I had two different professors, teaching two different courses, whose first class it was at UofT, and were still using their material they had used at York. In both cases, the class average was ~90%, and had to get bell curved down aggressively. Keep in mind this can even occur between campuses. I've now taken 5 courses at the Scarborough campus, and frankly the difference in difficulty level isn't even fair. I realize this is rather anecdotal but I feel fairly confident saying that some schools are tougher than others.

 

Keep in mind that a name like UofT, or McGill, or UBC, is universally and internationally recognized. This may seem rather trivial for an UG, but it matters for three reasons. One, the people you are surrounded by (faculty, etc.) are absolutely world-class. This gives you the opportunity to work with them if you choose, which matters once you have an interview and from a general learning perspective. Two, I've presented my research at a few conferences in other countries, and every person I've spoken to has immediately known what and where UofT is, and this has certainly contributed to some of the contacts I've made there. Finally, you should consider the possibility that you don't get into a Canadian medical school. In that scenario, you sure as hell would rather wield a degree from UofT than from Lakehead (though this might be a double-edged sword because maybe the reason you didn't get in here is because of your marks at UofT).

 

Overall, I'd say if you pick one of the bigger schools it will be an overall more enriched experience, but DO be prepared to work extra hard. Like real hard. If you go to an 'easier' school, make sure you add things to your resume that can get you further than just marks.

[Savac]

Some of your colleagues will tell you, go to a university that will grant you an easy 3.8+ so that you will look competitive on your application. I strongly DISCOURAGE that view. You want to enter an institution that has a lot of competitive students so you can build stamina and learn to work harder. If you can get a 3.8 in Ryerson in one parallel universe, you can certainly score that at UofT/McMaster.

 

I feel like studying for the MCAT will build up more than enough stamina all by itself

[souljaboy]

Supposedly it doesn't really matter in Canada, but sometimes it does come down to the discretion of the file reviewer whether you get an interview or acceptance. It would be very minor if it does indeed make any difference. Doing UG in a more reputable school could make you look better. I know that if I was on admissions, I'd definitely give more leeway to someone with a biochem degree from McGill than someone with a biochem degree from Carleton, assuming similar GPAs and stuff.

[Hockeynut]

Supposedly it doesn't really matter in Canada, but sometimes it does come down to the discretion of the file reviewer whether you get an interview or acceptance. It would be very minor if it does indeed make any difference. Doing UG in a more reputable school could make you look better. I know that if I was on admissions, I'd definitely give more leeway to someone with a biochem degree from McGill than someone with a biochem degree from Carleton, assuming similar GPAs and stuff.

 

This is more of what I expect.

The fact is that it has to make a difference, albeit minor, it absolutely can only work for you.

 

 

I've taken exams from friends at other schools (Laurentian,Mac and Queens) and they were all a fair bit easier than anything I have written, some laughably easy. (note: I did these for such courses as gen chem and Org where the material is relatively standardized). I also noticed that we here at McGill seem to cover more material than other schools (again by comparison with friends). In the end I feel as though I will come out of McGill with the best possible UG education and the extra difficulty will only add to my own character.

 

 

 

As a bit of an aside it does make me giggle went people say that all Universities are the same. Yes there is not the desperaty found in the American system, but there are definitely tiers in the Canadian system, albeit closer then the American schools.

[Savac]

As a bit of an aside it does make me giggle went people say that all Universities are the same. Yes there is not the desperaty found in the American system, but there are definitely tiers in the Canadian system, albeit closer then the American schools.

 

This is true, but for undergrad it doesn't matter

[trojjanhorse]

This is true, but for undergrad it doesn't matter

 

lol shouldn't you be studying for your finals?

[Savac]

lol shouldn't you be studying for your finals?

 

I'm multi-tasking!

[summergirl]

Okay, everyone knows that most Canadian schools explicitly state that they don't care which UG school you went to. That being said, as a psychology major, I strongly believe that there's a implicit component in the admissions process that bias towards more prestigious schools. Now many people will argue whether this is fair or not. I mean, no student will admit that their program is easier than someone else's, even if it is in fact easier. So I think the discussion would end here as there's no possible way to reach a consensus on which schools are being biased against.

 

EDIT: In my opinion, I don't think it's fair for a person to say another school is easier than their school simply by taking one class at that other school or seen/doing the tests of that other school. There are so many other factors involved in how difficult a school is to its students. For example, you could have taken a very easy class at that other school, or you took it in the summer and it was the only class you were taking at the time so of course you would have an easier time compared to your regular full-time school year at your home school. Also, only look at another school's tests won't be able to tell you how much that student had to study for this course because some of the material won't be on the test, or how hard the TA marks the tests.

[NutritionRunner]

In my experience, there is really no major difference in difficulty between universities in Canada.

 

I've taken courses from MANY universities. I'm a second degree student, and in between my two degrees, I took a lot of different courses to be sure that I actually had an aptitude for the health sciences and to confirm my interest in nutrition.

 

I've taken courses from Carleton, Guelph, Waterloo, Athabasca, UAlberta, and Uof Toronto (yes, I have a ton of different transcripts to submit every time I apply to a program). I haven't found the courses to be more or less difficult at any of those universities.

 

"Prestige" matters for very, very little at the undergraduate level in Canada. Especially when you look at programs that are accredited, like engineering or dietetics. In order to be accredited, they all have to teach basically the same things, to the same degree, so there isn't a huge disparity between programs.

 

I feel sorry for those who chose an undergraduate university based on its "prestige." They've fallen for the propaganda put out by those universities. There are world-class researchers working at numerous universities across the country. Just here at Guelph I've had the chance to personally work with two Canada Research Chairs, I've taken classes taught by an additional several CRCs, and I've been taught by individuals who are leaders in their field, widely recognized internationally in food science and nutrition. I've had small classes (25 people) with professors who are doing leading research in nutrition and physical activity interventions. I'm not sure I would get that kind of experience at large universities with huge class sizes.

[NutritionRunner]

 

As a bit of an aside it does make me giggle went people say that all Universities are the same. Yes there is not the desperaty found in the American system, but there are definitely tiers in the Canadian system, albeit closer then the American schools.

 

And I have to laugh at this statement of yours. There are no "tiers" in Canada. In my experience, there is no major in difficulty between universities in Canada, and it always seems to be the McGill and UofT students who think their universities are so much more prestigious and difficult, and, sadly, most of those students tend to be stuck up and think themselves superior as a result.

[souljaboy]

And I have to laugh at this statement of yours. There are no "tiers" in Canada. In my experience, there is no major in difficulty between universities in Canada, and it always seems to be the McGill and UofT students who think their universities are so much more prestigious and difficult, and, sadly, most of those students tend to be stuck up and think themselves superior as a result.

 

Have you actually gone to McGill and UofT and UBC and Waterloo and etc? If you haven't then you're not forming your opinion from experience. I'm not saying McGill or UoT is harder, but their programs are definitely considered more advanced than a school like Brock or Carleton. McGill and UofT is more prestigious than most other Canadian schools for science, that is a fact. There's a reason a graduate from McGill or uofT with a bachelors and decent grades are much more prefered for graduate schools. I don't necessarily share the difficulty opinion though since I've never taken classes anywhere else. There are definitely tiers for programs for schools. A degree in engineering from Carleton and Ottawa is not the same as from Waterloo. A degree from Ivey is not the same as one from Ryerson. The "Canada has no tiers" argument is really flawed. That may be true for med schools but it does not apply for most other programs.

[pokaroo]

this is only my opinion...

 

Let's say you want to study biology in your undergrad. You may choose UofT, McMaster, and Ryerson. Amongst the 3, McMaster would be tough to get in because they require an average of 90. UofT is a bit lower than that. Ryerson, is a mall, so all you gotta do is step right in. Once you begin your undergraduate career, you will be surrounded with different colleagues. You'll see more competitive students at UofT/McMaster than Ryerson Town Center, which would encourage you to keep up and compete back. This will build an acumen of some sort to work a bit harder and keep on pushing yourself to do better.

 

Now let's say you end up with a 3.8 from UofT/McMaster, and in a different parallel dimension, you end up with a 3.8 from Ryerson (not including their 4.3 scale, just omsas scale). I would put my money on the UofT/McMaster student to score a lot better on the MCAT as that standardized test require vigour.

 

Some of your colleagues will tell you, go to a university that will grant you an easy 3.8+ so that you will look competitive on your application. I strongly DISCOURAGE that view. You want to enter an institution that has a lot of competitive students so you can build stamina and learn to work harder. If you can get a 3.8 in Ryerson in one parallel universe, you can certainly score that at UofT/McMaster.

 

 

I think you mean 80% (?) McMaster Life Sci pretty much accepts anyone. You might be referring to the Health Sci program I would suspect.

 

To get into Western Med Sci you need a 90 now, refer to CUDO stats as well as BMSc message board stats.

[Exocytosis]

I can't speak for U of T or McGill (the 'high-tier' schools'), but I transferred from Brock -> Western and didn't notice any change in difficulty.

 

This is another reason they probably don't take program difficulty or school into account most of the time; it relies on a lot of assumptions. Everyone "knows" that certain schools are harder than others, but really, how do you know? Unless there's some sort of standardization then it's just speculation.

[chickenfingers91]

I know a few people who transferred from OOP schools to McGill for their third year (Laurier, Winnipeg) and according to them, McGill has a higher workload and tougher exams than what they have experienced. I mean, obviously this is anecdotal and all Canadian schools are excellent, but there may be some differences (not in educational quality but maybe education delivery/exam styles) and perhaps this difference in between McGill and their former schools is that McGill has more "hours" per semester than a lot of other schools and thus more material may be covered during the semester.

[A-Stark]

Okay, everyone knows that most Canadian schools explicitly state that they don't care which UG school you went to. That being said, as a psychology major, I strongly believe that there's a implicit component in the admissions process that bias towards more prestigious schools. Now many people will argue whether this is fair or not. I mean, no student will admit that their program is easier than someone else's, even if it is in fact easier. So I think the discussion would end here as there's no possible way to reach a consensus on which schools are being biased against.

 

Admissions processes simply assign a score to each applicant based on GPA, MCAT (if applicable), extra-curriculars and experience, grad work/research/publications, and, most importantly, the interview. I don't know where suck discretion about the "prestige" of a school would come in, implicit or otherwise.

 

And, sorry to say, but prefacing your argument with "as a psychology major" could not help but remind me of this person.

[Telric]

In my experience (though I don't have a degree in psychology...), the only people who care about the prestige of a school are the insecure ones. A degree is as good as what it let's you achieve; in the case of medical school admissions, the playing field is level.

 

I go to the University of Alberta, and I have no idea how other schools compare. In fact I would argue that there is probably just as much intra-university variation between difficulty as there is inter-university. Then, of course, there are discrepancies between individual courses within programs. Also, no doubt certain students excel more at particular subjects and topics within a course.

 

I like to make the analogy of a well-fitted suit. Wearing a nicely tailored suit is much more attractive than wearing an expensive suit that doesn't fit as well, and telling everyone the brand.

[souljaboy]

What if you wear a nicely tailored $10,000 suit vs. a nicely tailored cheap suit?

[A-Stark]

Which undergrads are wearing $10,000 suits?