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One in six newly graduated medical specialists can’t find work


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Then I would appreciate not hearing these people complain about how they can't find jobs. The feeling of entitlement is through the roof with many med students/recent grads when it comes to situations such as this. At some point you need to go out and find the jobs.

 

well there is that aspect of it :) You do get a sense of entitlement - something that existing in a era of shortages probably helped breed in. The concept that finding work would be hard just never occurred to people.

 

Ultimately there however a clear point when there simply ISN'T any jobs to find. I won't say were are there yet except in some fields (I don't think that 50% of the rad onc grads not finding work is collectively a lack of desire to look for them as just one example). You cannot easily create a job for yourself like you can in some other fields.

 

One other thing - training doctors is a blastedly expensive operation. Little point in doing it if there is not a logically need :)

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Then I would appreciate not hearing these people complain about how they can't find jobs. The feeling of entitlement is through the roof with many med students/recent grads when it comes to situations such as this. At some point you need to go out and find the jobs.

 

Those jobs don't exist in many specialties. Like it or not, there is no magic repository of jobs in rural Canada. Hell, most specialties couldn't even practice in many rural areas (for example, they aren't going to start doing cardiac surgery in Cold Lake AB, or gastroenterology in Stephenville, NL).

 

I'll give you an example from my specialty. There were around 15 people who finished residency in Ontario last year. There were 6-7 jobs that I know about. One of those jobs had no OR time attached to it (aka not suitable for a newly graduated resident/fellow). Most of those jobs were as rural as you can get for my specialty. All were filled to the best of my knowledge.

 

New residents aren't acting entitled. They are concerned that there are not enough jobs to employ the number of residents graduating each year. Given all our current data, this is likely true. It's hard to describe the level of stress this causes. You'll likely understand better when you get a couple years into residency.

 

This whole situation is going to get much worse before it gets better. We haven't even seen the peak of med school enrollment yet.

 

At least my specialty association is taking an active role in trying to solve the problem. Reducing residency positions is being discussed.

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Then I would appreciate not hearing these people complain about how they can't find jobs. The feeling of entitlement is through the roof with many med students/recent grads when it comes to situations such as this. At some point you need to go out and find the jobs.

 

It's one reason why I also think a market solution to physician services would be disastrous for physicians in Canada. Canadian physicians don't have the mindset to "compete" for business.

 

If they can't even get off their ass and go where actual jobs are and instead whine about how there are no jobs in the precious place they want to practice then how exactly could they ever compete for business? Especially given a medical school system where pretty much EVERYONE passes (compared to the fail rate in the US)?

 

For the record, I'm not really talking about specialists per say. I recognize that even if a neurosurgeon wanted to practice in Wawa Ontario that they couldn't. I'm more talking about family physicians and how we need to recruited IMG's to these undeserved areas because most CMG family physicians won't setup in these areas without some sort of financial incentive.

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It's one reason why I also think a market solution to physician services would be disastrous for physicians in Canada. Canadian physicians don't have the mindset to "compete" for business.

 

If they can't even get off their ass and go where actual jobs are and instead whine about how there are no jobs in the precious place they want to practice then how exactly could they ever compete for business? Especially given a medical school system where pretty much EVERYONE passes (compared to the fail rate in the US)?

 

you would have to back up a little bit because actually choosing the specialty in the first place would be the first business decision - basically choosing the product you want to sell I guess. I always found it interesting the these sorts of placement issues rather come up in the discussion at that level.

 

Not that again as NLengr points out in many cases there simply flat out AREN'T jobs to find - and of course by the time the current crop gets through the system is will be even worse.

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At least my specialty association is taking an active role in trying to solve the problem. Reducing residency positions is being discussed.

 

NLengr, what specialty are you in, if you don't mind my asking? Its interesting and even positive to hear that some associations are matching up with reality. You had a really good post there. :)

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you would have to back up a little bit because actually choosing the specialty in the first place would be the first business decision - basically choosing the product you want to sell I guess. I always found it interesting the these sorts of placement issues rather come up in the discussion at that level.

 

Not that again as NLengr points out in many cases there simply flat out AREN'T jobs to find - and of course by the time the current crop gets through the system is will be even worse.

 

I added an addendum to my post to qualify I'm referring more to FM over specialists.

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Plus it is a lot easier to say you will move anywhere when you likely aren't already married and potentially have children - medical school and residency + fellowships is a LONG time - say 10 years in a lot of cases, and is often the time things like that happen. Things change - and a doctor's partner and family often have jobs/commitments that restrict where they can go. I think people underestimate that effect sometimes :)

 

Plus the shear "I will do anything to get to go to medical school and be a doctor!!!" wears off a bit when you actually are going to be doctor for sure :) Then you look up and go, well gezz I want to be a doctor AND have access to a particular location of choice.

 

Yea ultimately not many people want to chill in a small town, regardless of any higher respect/prestige (if that happens in rural settings). You can make all this money, but if you need to drive an hour n half for any reasonable entertainment, that's going to be an issue.

 

Then I would appreciate not hearing these people complain about how they can't find jobs. The feeling of entitlement is through the roof with many med students/recent grads when it comes to situations such as this. At some point you need to go out and find the jobs.

 

Well when you invest such a significant amount of time and money in your 20s and work harder than the vast majority of people, you tend to develop a (well deserved) sense of entitlement. It's one thing to have a bachelors degree and complain about location and pay, but if you've been in school 8-9 schools and have had 4-5 years training (or 5-7) on top of that, you tend to feel entitled to a certain few things. :) And that's perfectly justified.

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It's one reason why I also think a market solution to physician services would be disastrous for physicians in Canada. Canadian physicians don't have the mindset to "compete" for business.

 

If they can't even get off their ass and go where actual jobs are and instead whine about how there are no jobs in the precious place they want to practice then how exactly could they ever compete for business? Especially given a medical school system where pretty much EVERYONE passes (compared to the fail rate in the US)?

 

For the record, I'm not really talking about specialists per say. I recognize that even if a neurosurgeon wanted to practice in Wawa Ontario that they couldn't. I'm more talking about family physicians and how we need to recruited IMG's to these undeserved areas because most CMG family physicians won't setup in these areas without some sort of financial incentive.

 

You mean force a number of current IMGs to underserved areas or increase spots for IMGs?

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of course the government is incompetent at properly planning ahead. it does everything at a higher cost and delivers a lower quality of service. not to mention that it is immoral that people are being taxed in order to finance this pos system.

 

hehehehe well the US - the usual counter point country - is training more medical students than it has residency spots. That isn't exactly planning either.

 

and just to add one small extra wrinkle - maybe the government isn't so stupid at all. Having a surplus lets them to say they solved the doctor shortage for big PR and allows them to be more aggressive at the bargaining table for doctors fees.

 

also I think the entire cost/service argument you are making is a bit separate but of course worth debating :)

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hehehehe well the US - the usual counter point country - is training more medical students than it has residency spots. That isn't exactly planning either.

 

and just to add one small extra wrinkle - maybe the government isn't so stupid at all. Having a surplus lets them to say they solved the doctor shortage for big PR and allows them to be more aggressive at the bargaining table for doctors fees.

 

also I think the entire cost/service argument you are making is a bit separate but of course worth debating :)

 

It's pretty easy to get a residency spot if you're willing to settle for family medicine/psych/peds in the US (given that they're paid quite a bit less, especially family). For them it's a big competition, which is actually good.

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It's pretty easy to get a residency spot if you're willing to settle for family medicine/psych/peds in the US (given that they're paid quite a bit less, especially family). For them it's a big competition, which is actually good.

 

oh sure - but again by the math no matter how you shuffle the chairs someone is going to be left standing without a place to sit. This assumes the US doesn't move to fix the situation (hopefully they will) although if you are looking for a model of dysfunctional government lately..... :)

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You can't pull any conclusions out of this BS study. Only 32% response? It's open to a lot of bias. Maybe those that didn't respond are too busy working? Who knows. I'm surprised someone would even print a paper like this...

 

First thing I thought of once I actually opened the real document, surprised it took ~60 posts (not to mention a R5) to point this out.

 

Response rates are terrible. Throws a huge aspect of potential bias into the study - what about the other 60+% of respondents? Do we assume they are all employed and too busy to respond? How did they contact residents who were not employed? etc etc etc etc...

 

While I agree this is an issue, and better physician planning is required... the 1 in 6 statistic is completely useless.

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First thing I thought of once I actually opened the real document, surprised it took ~60 posts (not to mention a R5) to point this out.

 

Response rates are terrible. Throws a huge aspect of potential bias into the study - what about the other 60+% of respondents? Do we assume they are all employed and too busy to respond? How did they contact residents who were not employed? etc etc etc etc...

 

While I agree this is an issue, and better physician planning is required... the 1 in 6 statistic is completely useless.

 

The job employment issue has been discussed before at the "upper levels" of medicine and among current residents/fellows and attendings. It's a major issue.

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The job employment issue has been discussed before at the "upper levels" of medicine and among current residents/fellows and attendings. It's a major issue.

 

My preceptors are discussing it with the students already. The statistic may be useless in and of itself but the general trend its highlighting is clear:# of residency spots > # of job openings!

 

We can discuss the semantics for days here; I think the important issue here is: what should current medical students, especially preclerkship students that have the doors wide open, be doing at this point?

 

Should we just forget the surg specialties all together? Is going to the US a realistic option?

 

Solutions for the over-saturation aren't going to be helpful for current students as they will take many years to implement and see effect. So it seems like the only thing current students can do is be proactive in their choices and decisions. How should we do that?

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simple solution to doctor shortage and jobless specialists:

1. lower salaries of specialties

2. fewer ppl will go and specialize so more specialists will remain employed and lower specialty unemployment rate.

3. govt will be able to employ more specialists at lower fee...e.g. 3 opthos together doing 800K-1mil as opposed to 1. still pretty decent.

3. more ppl will end up in FM and help with primary care

4. OMA will complain about brain drain and ppl moving to US but we all know those are empty threats :P

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A lot of people don't realize that while we have a shortage of physicians the government can't afford to fund them all. Healthcare resources are finite, for every specialist physician the government recruits they need to consider OR time, staff, supplies etc.

 

What they do need to do is give these old physicians retirement packages so the new grads can take over. You're not going to take your money to the grave, geez. :rolleyes: Honestly, I know an ophthalmologist who is borderline decrepit but refuses to retire because of pride issues, not to mention safety concerns but that's another story.

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